SheCanRun

I've been reading and listening here for a little while and putting off writing this b/c I hate to type (lol) and I think I don't want to see it in black and white. I'm afraid for some reason..? I'm working on the why.

I recently "discovered" the my H is an alcoholic. At least that is my thoughts on the matter. I always considered his drinking problematic but never used the word alcoholism. He and I would discuss it on occasion but not often b/c it was a subject that could make him very angry. We even talked about it in couple's therapy at one point. It was one of the bigger issues that I had with him, our therapist seemed to consider it not much of a problem and asked AH to get **** drunk when I was not around- maybe downstairs in the basement so I would not have to see or experience it. Said therapist had a similar reaction to his affair (when I was pregnant with #2). Called the affair relatively benign.

So between things he told me & the professional advice we received I never uttered the word alcoholic.

In the past year I have been in touch with an old friend/ex that has 13 yrs sober. We have talked a lot and when he told me he was a recovering alcoholic I opened up about AH. Since that conversation he has been gently recommending that I go to Al Anon.... and after many months I ended up here & at my first meeting.

For a while I sat in denial. He's "functional" (he's really not- depends on the day) he's never hit me (this is a plus?!) he's a good father to our boys (when he feels like it) he never drinks during the day, he loves me very much...etc.

The truth is that he's progressively getting worse and drinking more. His drinking has clouded his judgement. He owns his own business & for the past years things have been getting worse and worse. He's a proud man, used to brag that his parents never gave him a penny since he left home after HS and in the past year we have borrowed a significant amount of $$ from his Dad (in the form of a loan that I will now be responsible for paying 1/2 of), my Dad has paid our mortgage 3X this year (and given me other $) and his brother recently gave him some $. We lost our health insurance, over the summer there were times when I didn't have $ for groceries or gas. My children have needed new shoes, dental check ups and countless other things that help a family function in a normal capacity.

I've spent more time than I can believe banging my head on the wall trying to figure out why he won't take care of us. I have cried & yelled and screamed to friends & my Dad about why he won't choose us- if not me then them.... his CHILDREN.

He is capable. He has the education. Graduated from one our our countries
service academies, was a military officer and has a masters degree. We live in a part of the country where jobs are plentiful for people with his qualifications. Why wouldn't he choose us??? Then I came here and started reading. Then I went to Al Anon.

I began to test out the word.... alcoholic. Could that really be him? Do I really have to go into recovery too? Is this us?

Is this the reason he rages at me? The reason blames me for everything that is wrong? He's actually looked me in the eye and said that I am the reason for everything that is wrong in his life. The first time I heard it I flipped out. Yelled back. Called friends and said WTF? After hearing several times began to question myself, my thoughts, my words, my feelings. I have said on several occasions that I feel like I'm crazy. He makes me feel absolutely crazy.

I am a strong woman. Many of my friends from my past have said the same things to me. "What happened to you?" The woman we used to know would have NEVER put up with this BS.

In this relationship I have lost my voice. Gone silent b/c of the fear of what happens when I fight back. I've begged him to stay when he was in love with another woman & was crying, holding and nursing our second child. He has never apologized for that, has said it was a good thing for our relationship. Seriously.
Begged him to stay last year when he wanted a divorce and we separated for 9 months.
I have been silent when I wanted to yell. I have been still when I wanted to run. I have been afraid to leave. I have had panic attacks when I have thought of going it alone. I have been so scared. I still am.

We are in financial ruin. I have a job that I love but will not support 3 people (me + kids). I don't know how much I can count on him financially. He says he will pay child support and alimony but if his past actions are any indication then I cannot count on that.

I have been keeping him on very little contact for the past 6 weeks or so. I had a melt down (my bottom) when the mortgage came due and was about to go unpaid for the 4th month. He was taking a very casual attitude about it, I was not sleeping, have severe stomach pain at night wondering if I would come home to a house that had been foreclosed on. He forbid us for the longest time to pick up certified mail from the post office b/c he didn't want to be called back into the military. As if avoiding a letter could keep him out if they wanted him back... So I was afraid that the bank would send notices & we would not get them and one day the house would be locked up & I would be locked out. He seemed unfazed.

He moved back into the basement and has been living there. That is where he lived last year when we were separated. He's sad. He's sober (at least right now). He's quit & restarted many times in the past (to include earlier this summer) so I don't hold much hope that this will last.

He has asked me to sit down & talk with him this weekend to make a plan, discuss finances. I am scared. Frankly I'd rather have a root canal with no pain meds than deal with this. But I know it must be done. I've been living in limbo, not knowing what or where this is going. I want out. He's knows it and he's very sad.

At this point I know that I won't go back to him. Too much pain, too much water under the bridge. Too much living in fear. Too much crying, anger and insanity.

I'm afraid that this will push him back to the bottle. I know that's his choice, but I am feeling very guilty that I am hurting him.

If anyone has advice of how to deal with this conversation I'd appreciate it. I've already told him that I want to stick to the facts only- what we need to do & how we need to do it, but he's a master manipulator & talks circles around me.

Thanks for letting me share

Free108

oh my goodness, I recognise a lot of your feelings. I also didn't know, or didn't want to see that my xabf is an alcoholic. Sometimes I even still question myself, despite the fact that he drinks every single night of his life and displays all the usual symptoms. It's so hard to accept that something completely out of your control is having an enormous impact on your life and that you're not going to be able to negotiate with it and you're going to have to make other plans.
I'm also in a position of having to have ongoing discussions about finances with someone who is incredibly narcissistic and much happier ignoring the issues, because that's what works for him generally.
As far as your conversation goes this weekend, I can only tell you what I've done, which is to put a calm face on, even when I'm actually freaking out inside, and try to bring the conversation back to the facts again and again. Asking questions helps. Like, does he think it would be a good idea to... or, Would he like to do this or that, and give him two options that you would be OK with.
I've absolutely hated having to tiptoe around, as usual, in order to not spark the criticisms and anger that he's so used to dishing out, but I also just can't handle any more drama and I want to resolve things so that I can get myself out of his life.
I've realised that when I get into an argument with him, it's usually because deep inside I think that he'll finally hear me and change for me. It's never worked, I can tell you. So giving up on the argument is like giving up on us, which is hard. But it sounds like you're ready. Good luck! Tell us how it goes...

Pelican

At this point I know that I won't go back to him. Too much pain, too much water under the bridge. Too much living in fear. Too much crying, anger and insanity.

I'm afraid that this will push him back to the bottle. I know that's his choice, but I am feeling very guilty that I am hurting him.

At this point you are just letting him verbalize his plan. You don't have to agree to his plan. I recommend you consult with a lawyer to find out your legal rights.

You did not cause his alcoholism
You can not control his alcoholism
You will not cure his alcoholism.

Although he would like you to believe you are driving him to drink, you are not. He is an adult, he chooses to turn to alcohol for comfort.

naive

hi shecanrun-

i relate to much of what you have written. i went through the financial ruin, the affair and the minimizing of his drinking. it made me question myself.

i didn't have much luck speaking with my alcoholic about my concerns. he would become angry and the conversations went nowhere. i finally left my home when i was scared to fall asleep because he would come in drunk and drop lit cigarettes in the bed and on the wood floor.

i'm glad that you are going to alanon and reading here. it took awhile for me to get my blinders off and exit from my own denial of sorts.

your counselor doesn't sound very helpful. perhaps time to find a new one?

for me, it took separating, getting clear of the madness and then and only then could i see the whole thing for what it was.

the active alcoholic will blame you for what is occurring. that is part of their way of protecting their drinking.

for me, it took getting some counselling, attending meetings and then, to begin to establish some healthy boundaries and sticking too them. my alcoholic didn't like this at all, but i didn't do it for him, i did it for me, because i too was becoming sick in such an unhealthy relationship where i could not express my genuine concerns (e.g. fire) without being yelled at.

so, you're not alone and there is a way out. keep reading, keep talking, keep turning it over to your higher power and you will find your way, as so many of us have.

naive

SheCanRun

Crap, I just deleted my entire post. My 4 yr old is running around the house hitting things with a broom and pouring salt on the table, the floor and his hands. Perhaps I should come back & try this again later. LOL

bremerbua

SheCanRun,

Your story is heartbreaking.

A couple of thoughts:

"Said therapist had a similar reaction to his affair (when I was pregnant with #2). Called the affair relatively benign."

Find a new therapist. There is nothing benign about an affair. Affairs begin with a thought; a thought that excludes any concern for the cheated partner. Betryal begins with the thought. The thought manifested produces more lies and deceit.

"I'm afraid that this will push him back to the bottle. I know that's his choice, but I am feeling very guilty that I am hurting him."

What is happening in your marriage now, are consequences of choices he's made. His choices are your fault, how? He has hurt himself. Don't take on guilt that doesn't belong to you.

Your conversation with him will either allow the "blame/guilt" dance to continue (assuming you continue to feel guilty about hurting him), or it will put an end to it (assuming you understand the source of the fear that has kept you silent).

You have clear understanding of why your marriage is what it has become. You've taken necessary steps; don't allow him to manipulate you. Stick to the facts; draw firm boundaries. Let him pontificate. We he finishes bring the conversation back to the facts. If it becomes intolerable end the conversation and leave the scene, or break this cycle in some other way.

You understand what you're dealing with. Keep reminding yourself of the reasons you are having this conversation. It isn't easy, but it won't change until you want it badly enough. Take care of yourself first!

Keep posting

wanting

I kind of want to punch your therapist in the face.

As far as the conversation goes, I would not worry about him at all. You can't make him drink. Just worry about yourself. Be strong! Watch out for manipulation! You can and you will be OK (and even fabulous) without him.

Bernadette

Good thing you can run! Catch that 4 year old!!

You've got some great words above-- just want to give you a massive ((((((((((((HUG))))))))))
because your pain is present in every word of your story....

Easy does it. Talk to a lawyer! And stick around. Collectively we've seen it all here on SR, and you're not alone.

peace,
b.

Oh - you mentioned you "don;t know what happened to you" and friends say that too -- I am bumping a thread I started about a friend of mine - called "The Toll" - married to an alcoholic - if you have a sec check it out - and find the ways, little or big, to help yourself and get your life back!!

Freedom1990

Although I have grandkids older than 4 now, I do have a few naughty dogs at home, including an 80 pound greyhound who pulled the box of cheerios off the microwave last night, and a small boxer mix who tipped the trash can over!

I'm immersed in college homework right now, but will be back later to post more to you! :ghug2

Gypsy Feet

Haha

I remember it all too well. I am out now, living in the light. Finding the real me that was gone so long is more awesome than I can put in words.

I still have flair ups of guilt over how miserable he is, but in the end, we are both grown ups he and I. I decided I wanted a better life and went after it, he did not.

MeHandle

I want to go to that therapist and demand your money back. The punching in the face thing,... i understand the sentiment.

Affair...... deal breaker here, immediate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 months pregnant, he would be blessed my conscience wouldn't allow me to kill him. I would press charges against him and her though.

Okay seriously..........
Benign my a$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( unless you have no moral position on the issue in a marriage, as maybe was the therapist position. which would be sorta shortsighted for a therapist dealing with the general population. i can think of no other reason for the therapist position to be so....so..... stupid.)

I have no advice on how to deal with the conversation. i just have understanding an encouragement for you : You are not guilty, it is okay to feel sad but i hope you don't get stuck under that feeling, allow it to pass. He may be sad, that is not your fault. Deal in facts, understand his position, but understand yours and it is okay! Just because he is still your husband, legally, doesn't mean he hasn't lost the priviledge to be your partner. I could go on, but mostly i understand what you are going through. So i want to encourage you as someone who understands. It is normal for you to deal with these thoughts and feelings. But what you have to do is 'good', not bad. What you have to do doesn't always feel good and it can make you feel confused as to your feelings. When you look objectively at this , trying to put your feelings aside, can you see past the confusion of feeling? :-) I say these things and mine has never cheated and he has never dealt with money wrong and risked our family in that area. Just the progression of moodiness, resentments and abandonment of daily life was more then enough.

lol.... ways to feel good..... report the stupid therapist to someone. :-)

SheCanRun

Well conversation has occurred and is now over.

My head is spinning and I need some time to sort it all out before I really know how to feel about it or what actions will need to be taken next.

A few things stand out. He DOES NOT want a divorce. He does not understand why I'd want one. (I refused to go there with him).

He IS NOT an alcoholic. He's given this considerable careful thought and this is not one of his problems. He's been sober for the past month so what on earth am I talking about? Again did not go there with him.

He's seeking joint custody of our children and will settle for no less. He'll probably get it. I can't even begin to digest this one. Can't think, don't want to.

If I leave him I can expect to be on my own financially. He'll pay required child support but if I have to live on welfare & food stamps that will be my problem not his.

Am scared, but what else is new. He did 90% of the talking. He used a lot of "I" statements. I was quiet most of the time. Again nothing new there.
Left conversation when we started to get ugly with each other and my head is spinning just like any other conversation we've had.

He recommended that I find a way to deal with my anger, he's concerned about it's affect on our children.

I'm praying now. I'm letting go and letting god. I'm going to be okay.

wanting

Don't listen to the crazy-making! Don't listen to the manipulation! Don't listen to the threats!

Listen to you. What would you tell yourself if you were your sister, your daughter, your dearest friend? (Someone here asked me that question too.)

Pelican

As predicted, he presented HIS plan. You are expected to accept his plan, and not rock the boat. He is offering manipulation and threats to try to control you.

A lawyer will let you know your legal rights. You do not have to accept you AH word.

You do not have to accept his plan for YOUR future.

Instead of obsessing over the conversation,
Instead of worrying about the future he predicts,
Instead of accepting life as it is,
Instead of denying yourself life as it should be:

Picture the big white AFLAC duck going quack, quack, quack, quack.....
that is how the conversation went. One sided.

Try to detach from yesterday's conversation and focus your attention today on yourself and your children. Do something loving together. You deserve a loving day today.

Chrysalis123

Hi and welcome. I am sorry for what brought you here but am so delighted your HP led you here because you have found a place of warmth, support, and a great deal of wisdom from men and women that have walked in your shoes.

What came out at me from your posts is that you H is emotionally abusing you. He fits the profile of my AH and boy was I surprised when my therapist started mentioning that. How could that be, I thought, since he never hit me, good father when he wanted to be, etc.... I lost my voice too, I felt ashamed, I thought everything was my fault, I thought if only I
could ______, everthing would be better, I felt confused a lot (well he was lying to me and gaslighting me), I ignored my own intuition and my own eyes and ears to convince myself he couldn't possibly be intetionally lying to me.

SO, that in a nutshell is where I was.

I did not have the strength to get myself out of the situation as my own best thinking got me into it. My own mind was not functioning well and my feelings were getting in my way and not allowing me to make healthy decisions for me and my children.

I helped myself by seeking therapy (boy was that scary), Alanon (ditto on the scary part), this board, and reading as many books on the subjects of codependency, addictions, and abusive relationships as I could.

Some books that helped me are: Codependent No More, Women That Love to Much, Why Does He do That?, and the "Getting Them Sober" books by Toby Rice Drews.

SheCanRun

Chrysalis thank you. Bought Codependent No More and Alcoholics Anonymous (the big book) last night. Am watching Joel Osteen and drinking coffee. All is calm right now as he is on a long run and won't be back for a little while.

I think therapy would be just where I need to be but don't know how to afford it. Money is a big, big issue around here. I have new insurance through my job so will have to look into that.

He left last night after our talk- he does that, just walks out the basement door & drives off. It bugs me... what if I just left when it pleased me? Could I be sure that the kids would be okay? No of course not. When I go out I always have to verify that he's going to be around & that he will be in charge of them. (I feel like I have to ask permission)
Anyway I'm wondering what he bought? Found an almost empty 6 pack holder in fridge downstairs... 1 beer left. Could not find the empties, so this could be from the past. Either way an indication that he is/has been drinking.

Thank you everyone for your advice & thoughts.

Freedom1990

Check with your local mental health center if you have one for counseling/therapy. The one where I live will charge on a sliding fee scale. I think I was paying $5 a session at one time before I had health insurance that covers mental health services.

Alanon is free, and has been a life-saver for me.

Chrysalis123

Yes, money was an issue for me too. I thought about it like this: If one of the kids was injured I would see to it they were treated no matter the cost. If one of the kids had an psychological crisis an needed the help of therapists I would pay, no matter the cost.

It hit me I was having my own crisis, I was on the Titanic, and I was the lifeboat for my kids. You know the old saying about, "Put your oxygen mask on first...". I HAD to get help. I HAD TO.

So, first I prayed...a lot. Then started looking around for counseling that had a sliding scale. My HP delivered to me a counselor that had specialized training in addictions/codependents and had a sliding scale.

I took this to be a sign.

Also, I ordered "Codependent No More" from an online used book source. When the book arrived I opened it and it was inscribed to me. You know, "Dear Chrysalis". As I read the inscription it basically outlined my issues and concluded with a message of strength, hope, and serenity and this persons faith in her "Chrysalis's strength" as she began to work a program of recovery. I looked at the signature and date and that message was written 10 years earlier.

I wish for you some signs like that from your HP as you continue on your journey.