Why is honesty so difficult?

Old 10-12-2009, 06:48 AM
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Why is honesty so difficult?

I feel like even though my AH is getting treatment, I can't get past all the dishonesty. Sometimes its just inconsistencies that don't add up - about things that really don't matter - so why lie about them? I notice them, and then I start wondering what is he really trying to hide.

Yesterday, my AH got really offended because my Dad asked him if he was drinking when they were golfing. He came home and said he wasn't doing good, and that my Dad shouldn't have said that in front of our son (12). I don't think I gave him the response he was looking for which was to come to his defense - instead I told him well what do you expect after all the lies and deceit. He responded that he wouldn't drink because it was only 10 in the AM and he was with his son - to which I responded that's never stopped you before. He spent the rest of the day moping around until I finally told him that I didn't blame my Dad for accusing him - and maybe getting accused in front of his son should be a wake up call. And, he probably was drinking (although he's "supposedly" taking Antabuse).

And, the reality is that he has lied to me so frequently, that I hardly trust anything he says - I can't separate fact from fiction anymore.

Further, I strongly believe that his unwillingness to be honest with me is a sign he's also not really committed to his recovery. The funny thing is, I'm giving things until January (a timeframe that I set for myself back in August), but its the lying, rather than the relapses, that will ultimately mean the difference between my staying or going.
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:01 AM
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Is he going to A.A. or working any other program? Because in my opinion (IMO), both of you would benefit from him working a program and having folks OTHER THAN YOU to lean on during his time trying to get and keep sober.

You're his wife trying to have a nice husband-wife relationship. You can't be his therapist, his crusader, or his alcohol counselor or sponsor. Plus, you have your own life, problems, and feelings to deal with. And it's unfair for him to lean on you like this.

If it were me, during a time when both of you are calm, I would just ask to speak to him for FIVE MINUTES (and I mean it, limit your mouth to five minutes--I KNOW this is hard because I will go on literally for HOURS if I don't limit myself). And simply let him know that although you may agree with him on some of the things he is going thru, and you would like to provide more support, you are working on your OWN issues and you are not equipped to help him with his day-to-day issues. Suggest he talk to his sponsor or other support.

But at the same time, you gotta' work your own program too. Have you tried Al-Anon yet? :ghug3
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:13 AM
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My AH (in rehab) tells me that he is really struggling with the honesty thing. Lying was such a part of his life for so long, it is a big effort to change. He says he notices that he tells little lies when the truth would do as well. My impression is that correcting this character defect takes effort and time.

His therapist says they sometimes draw up "contracts" between the alcoholic and the spouse to set out the expectations. This sounds like a good idea.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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I struggled with the same issue-- I am divorced from a chronic liar too (and I would have eventually been ok with the things he was lying about, if he could have managed to be truthful about them). I was unable to have a husband-wife relationship with someone who couldn't tell the truth... to himself, first, and me second.

I'm not sure that your husband's inability to stop lying has anything to do with his commitment to recovery, at this point. Like trapeze said, this kind of thing takes a long time to correct; a recovering alcoholic posted on this board a few months ago, and said that habitual dishonesty was the hardest alcohol related habit to break. If you can accept that your husband can't tell the truth any more than he can climb Mt. Everest, just put that issue in a box by itself, it might be easier to see how much work he's really doing towards recovery.

But that does not make it all right. It's reasonable to NOT want to be married to someone who can't stop yanking you around (and my now-ex hasn't changed. If anything, he's less honest with me now. I can't believe some of the stuff that's come out of his mouth in the past year. He's not fooling anyone, except himself).

I think my former husband's lying came out of a deep sense of shame about himself, and I'm not sure a lifetime is going to be long enough for him to be able to drag that out and repair it. It seemed more ingrained than drinking.

be well,

BG
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:55 AM
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This really hits home.

The AW lied to me for the last few years. She said she couldn't deal with my disappointment so she lied. It drove me nuts, she knew the times she was honest we had nice open discussions. When she lied it usually ended in a big fight and/or her leaving to drink more.

All the lies led to an affiar, a DUI, being arrested, then an attempt on her own life the day after I told her the lies were too much.

I found her before she died, she went to psych ward, 30 day inpatient and is now looking much better than before. The problem I have is the past and the lies. She destroyed my trust in her and can't grasp that is a huge part of why I can't be with her now. She says I am not giving "sober me" a chance. I said you never gave me a chance back then and those actions led us here. I don't know how I can trust her again but I had hope. After this weekend I realize there is no hope. I will always doubt her. I will always wonder if she is telling the truth. I will always think there is a bottle hidden somewhere in the house.

Trust is huge. I said I can't be with her if I don't trust her. She said she can't be with me if I don't trust her.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:07 AM
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The drinking is only a symptom; it is not the definitive problem.

Take away the alcohol, and you still have all the underlying issues, and the behaviors that go with them.

When I first got clean/sober, I was still selfish, egotistical, lied when it was easier to tell the truth, full of fear, anxious, immature, the list could go on and on.

It was through active participation in my own recovery in 12 step programs that I was able to address the issues and the behaviors, and begin to change.

People so often have the mistaken assumption that if the alcoholic would just stop drinking, all would be well. Stopping the drinking is just the tip of the iceburg. There's a lifetime of recovery work after that.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:11 AM
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Amen Freedom!

Drinking is just the tip of the iceberg for my AW. She has issues on top of issues. I have mine too and while many revolve around her and our marriage, some are just my own.

I sat down this weekend and looked long and hard at my relationship and realized even without her drinking there were still enough problems in this relationship that I don't believe we can truly be happy around each other.

I do hope she gets well and lives a long happy life. I just know now I am not in the picture, for her sake and mine.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:43 PM
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I was going to ask the same question myself. I found out last year that he had cheated on me years ago, and it opened my eyes to all the lies (big and little) that he tells.

H and I just had a huge fight over his lying, and it was over a stupid lie (he started smoking again, tried to hide it from me and told me he was borrowing an occasional cigarette from a coworker when all along he bought a pack of cigarettes and hid them in his truck.) Believe me, I was much more angry about the lie than the smoking.

What really worries me is how he attempts to blame me...he will often say that he was "afraid to tell me." That he is afraid of my anger...and that is why he lied to me for 20 years about cheating on me.

I have been so naive about this. It is a baffling thing to me.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:50 PM
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You know the odd thing is my AW told her affair partner he needed to be completely honest with his wife if they wanted closure. If she asked him what he had for lunch don't tell her ham when he had turkey, no lies.

Go figure she tells me she couldn't tell me about her drinking because she didn't want to see me disappointed. I told her the same thing. No lies, no matter how small. She could not hold up to her end of the deal and tries to pin it on her being an A. "Don't you understand. I couldn't control myself"

I don't buy that. I told her if she was that out of control she needs to go back and remove her name from every work contract for the last few years. If she can't be controled they could find a loophole and sue her for being inept. She didn't like that, said I was being a smarta$$. Told her I wasn't there to be nice, just honest. She made choices. She chose to lie to me. This is the result. She had as much power to be honest with me as she did to everyone else in her life. She just chose to lie to me.

Marigolds. I am the same way. I used to get so upset when she lied to me about small things. I told her over and over if you tell the truth you get a small amount of me being upset. If you lie and I catch you, and I will, you get about 100x worse because you lied.

It just never sunk in...
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:55 PM
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If we are honest we all lie. Like I wouldn't tell my mom her butt looks big in her favorite pair of jeans; but that's a 'being nice' lie. So it's "OK". This type doesn't usually hurt relationships. Then there is the other kind. Destructive lying....

In dealing with my AH I find that he is so far in denial that he's not even honest with himself. There are lies he tells me that he fully believes about him being a 'good' husband. I use to stand mouth agape in unbelief. Now I understand some things are lies he's bought into himself. Like he can 'control' how much he drinks. (not true)... Another: He doesn't 'need' to drink every night. (would love to see it)... The list goes on. If he can't cope with being honest with himself, he certainly can't be honest with anyone else. Especially me. I'm the mirror who screams about his imperfections that he really doesn't want to face... If he could he wouldn't be hiding in his drunken stupor.

I believe we can't give away what we don't have. For example if you don't have self-respect; you can't give respect to somebody else. That's why I feel they can't be honest with us. In order to have an addiction it starts with you being dishonest on some level with yourself and then others.

I could be wrong; since I'm not the one drinking. I have to say this is how it looks to me being on the front lines...I hate to say it, but we are lying to ourselves continuing to expect anything different unless they have been through some kind of real therapy.
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:05 PM
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This is a great thread, I am finding food for thought in all the posts.

I don't know how much my AH has lied to me. There are some questions I don't want to ask. I do know that he lies to himself, and until he fixes this problem, he can't be honest with me. Brundle, you hit it on the head with the observation that you can't give away what you don't have.
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:30 PM
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My experience is people who can't or won't be honest with themselves can't or won't be honest with others.

Yes alcoholics do it quite a bit, but if we include denial in this equation, which I do, .......it is by no means limited to those who suffer from alcoholism to put it very kindly.

trying to make a liar tell the truth is like trying to teach a Pig to sing, it only makes you frustrated and the pig mad at you however.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:23 PM
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Definition of denial:

–noun
1. an assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false: Despite his denials, we knew he had taken the purse. The politician issued a denial of his opponent's charges.
2. refusal to believe a doctrine, theory, or the like.
3. disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing.
4. the refusal to satisfy a claim, request, desire, etc., or the refusal of a person making it.
5. refusal to recognize or acknowledge; a disowning or disavowal: the traitor's denial of his country; Peter's denial of Christ.
6. Law. refusal to acknowledge the validity of a claim, suit, or the like; a plea that denies allegations of fact in an adversary's plea: Although she sued for libel, he entered a general denial.
7. sacrifice of one's own wants or needs; self-denial.
8. Psychology. an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.

Definition of lie:

–noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
4. the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.

As you can see, denial and lying are very very different things. Denial is very much a part of both alcoholism and codependency, lying isn't.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by brundle View Post
In dealing with my AH I find that he is so far in denial that he's not even honest with himself. There are lies he tells me that he fully believes about him being a 'good' husband.
Exactly - you know today my AH finally admitted he had drank yesterday morning. But, when my Dad asked him yesterday if he was drinking, AH believes he told him the truth that he wasn't drinking because he wasn't drinking at that exact moment. I literally had a 15 minute discussion with him today about it - him assisting that he did not lie to my father because even though he had drank the equivalent of 7 shots of Vodka earlier that morning he wasn't drinking at that exact moment and therefore not lying. I mean seriously - the logic is astounding.

And, the other neat one. He found out if he drank just before taking the antabuse he wouldn't throw up (still felt bad but didn't throw up). So, when he responded that you can't drink while on antabuse - insisted even - he was leaving out the part about drinking about 7 shots every morning a couple of ours before taking the antabuse. He actually called it 1-2 shots - but I did the math on the empty 1.75 L bottle. He still thinks its "only" 1 or 2 drinks.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:09 PM
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I would find it pretty comical if it wasn't so sad.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:54 PM
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He wasn't swallowing vodka on the golf course while with your dad and his son. Therefore, he was not drinking (at that exact moment).

Ugh. I'm sorry.

He is still drinking and he is still lying. He is still looking for the loopholes in life instead of being responsible.

January seems like a long time to put up with unacceptable behavior. Your son will be a teenager soon. Do you want him to think it is okay to look for the loopholes in his life?
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:44 PM
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8. Psychology. an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying facts that are consciously intolerable.

Definition of lie:
–noun
3. an inaccurate or false statement.

As you can see, denial and lying are very very different things. Denial is very much a part of both alcoholism and codependency, lying isn't.
I completely and wholly disagree, but that's OK, thank you for posting those definitions, it actually helped helped clarify what I was saying.

My premise is if you are lying to yourself, you're lying to me, if you are lying to yourself you can't help BUT to lie to me, if you have an inability to see the truth, you have an inability to tell the truth, and you are absolutely correct about this symptom being prevalent in both active codependency and active alcoholism though, However, you and I have always had differing ideas and opinions about things like reasonable/unreasonable expectations and on what constitutes denial though etc, that's cool, that's what a support site is about, is different experiences and viewpoints

Some lies are malicious, some are inadvertent, some are small "white lies", but that's the whole "honesty" in recovery, it has nothing whatsoever to do with "cash register honesty" it has to do with your denial being broken by a series of Socratic Questions either in deep work with years in therapy or working the steps with a sponsor, or both in many cases, and then making decisions and changes based on what you have learned about yourself.

Of course for those not in active recovery, cash register honesty and not just telling blatant lies are a good start.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:00 AM
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*shrug*

If denial and lying were the same thing, they'd be listed together in the dictionary.

According to Dr. Roper:

Just about anytime we approach the subject of alcoholics’ and addicts’ denial regarding their substance abuse, they become defensive. There are many reasons for that. One of those is because they mistakenly associate the word denial with the word lying. This is unfortunate, because denial and lying are two very different things.

Lying is something that a person does consciously—something that he or she is aware of on a conscious level. People know when they're lying. They may not be able to control their lying, but they are aware of it.

Denial, on the other hand, occurs on a level below consciousness—on a subconscious or unconscious level. It is a psychological process that acts to block out reality—that is, to block out conscious awareness within the individual of something that feels threatening to that individual. People honestly do not know when they are "in denial." Indeed, if one were to say, “I know I’m in denial about that,” then he/she is not really in denial about it.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:36 AM
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Cool, I still disagree, Denial permeates the very fabric of an addicts/codependents existence and lying to one's self and others becomes a way of life. Once I have become comfortable lying to myself, lying to you is no problem.

I don't know who Dr Roper is, sorry, I don't spend much time at selfgrowth dot com I am speaking from near two decades of working with alcoholics and myself, and until an addict/codependent stop lying to themself, they are not going to tell me the truth, that's just how that dynamic works.

I am not speaking from book learning or reading an article on the internet, I am speaking from the years of step work and therapy I have done on myself, then taking dozens and dozens of alcoholics through the steps and watching as their denial slips away, they learn the ability to tell the truth to their sponsor and others. This is not theoretical, this is my experience relived again and again and again. I have watched thousands upon thousands of alcoholics come into to AA and get well and stop lying to themselves and others, it's actually like...textbook, it's like watching the progress of kindergardeners, when you have taught the class for twenty years some things just become blindingly simple and painfully obvious.

I can't describe to you an experience you have never had. I just can't. I can't describe to you experience you have no experience with even in the slightest, I could be talking to you from the moon, or under the ocean.

I however, agree with this statement wholly
Denial, on the other hand, occurs on a level below consciousness—on a subconscious or unconscious level. It is a psychological process that acts to block out reality—that is, to block out conscious awareness within the individual of something that feels threatening to that individual. People honestly do not know when they are "in denial." Indeed, if one were to say, “I know I’m in denial about that,” then he/she is not really in denial about it.
and see many many many examples of it daily

here at SR

This is why my sponsors first "speech" to me when I asked him to be my sponsor, first he "qualified" I was in fact an alcoholic, then he asked me if I was prepared to go to any length, then he unleashed this speech at me:

this is the speech my sponsor gave me, you don't get to be a little bitch ANY MORE, you have identified yourself as an alcoholic in the program of alcoholics Anonymous, that means you have admitted the problem, you have told the truth, you don't get to use that as an excuse for your ******** behavior ANY MORE, from here on out, you need to mean what you say, and say what you mean, you don't get to lie any more, you've gone through your whole life lying, and it stops here, it stops with me, I'm the one person in the whole world you have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to, and if you have a problem with that, go find another sponsor, I got no problem with that, after you practice with me for awhile, you maybe will learn how to start telling the truth to others, all we have in this life is our word, it's the single most important thing that defines you as a man, and if your word is no good, you are no good, so it's time to rebuild that starting now. The fact you have admitted to God, to yourself, and to a group of alcoholics that you are an alcoholic means you don't ever have to take another drink again, you don't have any excuse to drink ever again, and if you do, it's because you lied to yourself.

that is literally the speech I got, and I give. Women are a little nicer to each other, I forgive my sponsees just about anything but lying to me.

Even if they **** up, I make them "man up", and stop telling me ******* stories. Apologies don't cut it. "try" means "to make a feeble effort"


The reason he gave me that speech, with 50 years of sobriety is because he KNEW that the disease of addiction is based on not telling the truth, by lying to yourself and others.

I spent ten years as a paramedic, and when I ran into a Doctor or a nurse "in the field" unless they worked in the emergency room, they were a liability, they were dangerous and in the way, I don't care if they were a world famous brain surgeon, until I get the patient to the operating room, you are in MY world, MY expertise, and with the years of experience I have working with others I can respectfully say to some quack at selfgrowth dot com to blow it out his @ss, guys probably a proctologist with the limited understanding he shows of how denial affects real world situations, you can't separate the two, if you have denial, YOU ARE A LIAR, period.

The following article matches my experience and explains better then I can.

The first casualty of addiction, like that of war, is the truth. At first the addict merely denies the truth to himself. But as the addiction, like a malignant tumor, slowly and progressively expands and invades more and more of the healthy tissue of his life and mind and world, the addict begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his addiction, even though prior to the onset of his addictive illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the addiction, he may be scrupulously honest.

First the addict lies to himself about his addiction, then he begins to lie to others. Lying, evasion, deception, manipulation, spinning and other techniques for avoiding or distorting the truth are necessary parts of the addictive process. They precede the main body of the addiction like military sappers and shock troops, mapping and clearing the way for its advance and protecting it from hostile counterattacks.

Because addiction by definition is an irrational, unbalanced and unhealthy behavior pattern resulting from an abnormal obsession, it simply cannot continue to exist under normal circumstances without the progressive attack upon and distortion of reality resulting from the operation of its propaganda and psychological warfare brigades. The fundamentally insane and unsupportable thinking and behavior of the addict must be justified and rationalized so that the addiction can continue and progress.


One of the chief ways the addiction protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the addict to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of addictive and non-addictive realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that àat least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.

The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:

o Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;

o My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;

o Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.

Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the addict is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his addiction, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.

In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit. This is the basic mindset of "IÇll quit tomorrow" and "If you had the problems I do youÇd drink and drug, too!"

The personal exceptionalism of the addict, along with his willingness to lie both by commission and omission in the protection and furtherance of his addiction, place a severe strain upon his relationships with others. It does not usually take those who are often around the addict long to conclude that he simply cannot be believed in matters pertaining to his addiction. He may swear that he is clean and sober and intends to stay that way when in fact he is under the influence or planning to become so at the first opportunity; he may minimize or conceal the amount of substance consumed; and he may make up all manner of excuses and alibis whose usually transparent purpose is to provide his addiction the room it requires to continue operating.

One of the most damaging interpersonal scenarios occurs when the addict, usually as the consequence of some unforeseen crisis directly stemming from his addiction, promises with all of the sincerity at his command to stop his addictive behavior and never under any circumstances to resume it again.

"I promise," the addict pleads, sometimes with tears in his eyes. "I know I have been wrong, and this time I have learned my lesson. YouÇll never have to worry about me again. It will never happen again!"

But it does happen again à and again, and again, and again. Each time the promises, each time their breaking. Those who first responded to his sincere sounding promises of reform with relief, hope and at times even joy soon become disillusioned and bitter.

Spouses and other family members begin to ask a perfectly logical question: "If you really love and care about me, why do you keep doing what you know hurts me so badly?" To this the addict has no answer except to promise once again to do better, "this time for real, youÇll see!" or to respond with grievances and complaints of his own. The question of fairness arises as the addict attempts to extenuate his own admitted transgressions by repeated references to what he considers the equal or greater faults of those who complain of his addictive behavior. This natural defensive maneuver of "the best defense is a good offense" variety can be the first step on a slippery slope that leads to the paranoid demonization of the very people the addict cares about the most. Unable any longer to carry the burden of his own transgressions he begins to think of himself as the victim of the unfairness and unreasonableness of others who are forever harping on his addiction and the consequences that flow from it. "Leave me alone," he may snap. "IÇm not hurting anybody but myself!" He has become almost totally blind to how his addictive behavior does in fact harm those around him who care about him; and he has grown so confused that hurting only himself has begun to sound like a rational, even a virtuous thing to do!

Corresponding in a mirror image fashion to the addictÇs sense of unfair victimization by his significant others may be the rising self-pity, resentment and outrage of those whose lives are repeatedly disturbed or disrupted by the addictÇs behavior. A downward spiral commences of reciprocally reinforcing mistrust and resentment as once healthy and mutually supportive relationships begin to corrode under the toxic effects of the relentless addictive process.

As the addictive process claims more of the addict's self and lifeworld his addiction becomes his primary relationship to the detriment of all others. Strange as it sounds to speak of a bottle of alcohol, a drug, a gambling obsession or any other such compulsive behavior as a love object, this is precisely what goes on in advanced addictive illness. This means that in addiction there is always infidelity to other love objects such as spouses and other family - for the very existence of addiction signifies an allegiance that is at best divided and at worst -and more commonly- betrayed. For there comes a stage in every serious addiction at which the paramount attachment of the addict is to the addiction itself. Those unfortunates who attempt to preserve a human relationship to individuals in the throes of progressive addiction almost always sense their own secondary "less than" status in relation to the addiction - and despite the addict's passionate and indignant denials of this reality, they are right: the addict does indeed love his addiction more than he loves them.

Addiction protects and augments itself by means of a bodyguard of lies, distortions and evasions that taken together amount to a full scale assault upon consensual reality. Because addiction involves irrational and unhealthy thinking and behavior, its presence results in cognitive dissonance both within the addict himself and in the intersubjective realm of ongoing personal relationships.

In order for the addiction to continue it requires an increasingly idiosyncratic private reality subject to the needs of the addictive process and indifferent or even actively hostile to the healthy needs of the addict and those around him. This encroachment of the fundamentally autistic, even insane private reality of the addict upon the reality of his family and close associates inevitably causes friction and churn as natural corrective feedback mechanisms come into usually futile play in an effort to restore the addict's increasingly deviant reality towards normal. Questions, discussions, presentations of facts, confrontations, pleas, threats, ultimatums and arguments are characteristic of this process, which in more fortunate and less severe cases of addiction may sometimes actually succeed in its aim of arresting the addiction. But in the more serious or advanced cases all such human counter-attacks upon the addiction, even, indeed especially when they come from those closest and dearest to the addict, fall upon deaf ears and a hardened heart. The addict's obsession-driven, monomaniacal private reality prevents him from being able to hear and assimilate anything that would if acknowledged pose a threat to the continuance of his addiction.

At this stage of addiction the addict is in fact functionally insane. It is usually quite impossible, even sometimes harmful to attempt to talk him out of his delusions regarding his addiction. This situation is similar to that encountered in other psychotic illnesses, schizophrenia for example, in which the individual is convinced of the truth of things that are manifestly untrue to everyone else. Someone who is deluded in the belief that he is the target of a worldwide conspiracy by some organization will always be able to answer any rational objection to his theory in a fashion that preserves the integrity of his belief system. Even when he is presented with hard and fast data that unequivocally disproves some of his allegations, he will easily find a way to sidestep the contradiction and persist in his false beliefs. (He can for example easily claim that the contradictory data is itself part of the conspiracy and is expressly fabricated for the purpose of making him look crazy! Anyone who has ever tried -uselessly- to reason with delusional patients knows the remarkable creativity and ingenuity that can be displayed in maintaining the viability, at least to the patient, of the most bizarre and obviously erroneous beliefs.)

The addict's delusions that he is harming neither himself nor others by his addictive behaviors; that he is in control of his addiction rather than vice versa; that his addiction is necessary or even useful and good for him; that the circumstances of his life justify his addiction; that people who indicate concern about him are enemies and not friends, and all other such beliefs which are patently and transparently false to everyone but himself, are seldom correctable by reason or objective data and thus indicate the presence of genuinely psychotic thinking which, if it is more subtle than the often grotesque delusions of the schizophrenic, is by virtue of its very subtlety often far more insidious and dangerous to the addict and those with whom he comes into contact. For in the case of the delusional schizophrenic most people are quickly aware that they are dealing with someone not in their right mind - but in the case of the equally or at times even more insane addict, thinking that is in fact delusional may be and commonly is misattributed to potentially remediable voluntary choices and moral decisions, resulting in still more confusion and muddying of the already turbulent waters around the addict and his addiction.

In many cases the addict responds to negative feedback from others about his addiction by following the maxim of "Attack the attacker." Those who confront or complain about the addict's irrational and unhealthy behaviors are criticized, analyzed and dismissed by the addict as untrustworthy or biased observers and false messengers. Their own vulnerabilities may be ruthlessly exposed and exploited by the addict in his desperate defense of his addiction. In many cases, depending upon their own psychological makeup and the nature of their relationship to the addict, they themselves may begin to manifest significant psychological symptoms. Emotional and social withdrawal, secrecy, fear and shame can cause the mental health of those closely involved with addicts to deteriorate. Almost always there is fear, anger, confusion and depression resulting from repeated damaging exposures to the addict's unhealthy and irrational behaviors and their corresponding and supporting private reality.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:01 AM
  # 20 (permalink)  
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Wow... this is really getting deep... I like to look at things much simpler.. That's why I pointed out that we all lie. If you don't tell some one something that's a lie of omission, still a lie. Denial is really lying to yourself and eventually trying to get others to believe that truth (atleast that's how I see it). How many of us shut our eyes for years to what was going on in our homes? Then at some point we started facing the truth. We where in denial, we where living a lie. Basically lying to ourselves and others because we where probably covering for our alcoholics on some level.

Even a little white lie can spin out of control. An addicts life is a web of lies to both themselves and others. As time goes on it gets thicker and just catches everyone who is near them. The longer it goes on I think the harder pulling out( and being even honest with yourself) becomes not just for the addict but for those caught with them. Many times we know the truth but want to believe the lies because they don't hurt as much. Like I said before this is just how I see it. I've been with two types of addicts; both times there where so many lies. This second time I often think of my AH as "the father of lies" although I know that title is reserved for the devil. I'm just not sure he really can tell the truth or if he did if I would believe him....
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