Hammer

What's next?

She is in AA and has been for something like 12 years.

Years ago during happier times I used to go once a week to AA meetings as a "buddy," and she would go to therapy type stuff with me for PTSD. I got "better," and she stayed on with AA, and all seemed pretty well.

But that was some years and some kids ago. I guess 9 years and 3 kids ago to be exact. One thing we do agree on is we both love and care well for the kids. There can only be one Number 1 priority and the kids are it.

Did the Al-Anon self-test in the sticky section here -- looks like a maybe -- but only really if I substitute "problems" for "alcohol." Truth is from my point of view the root of the problem(s) goes much deeper than alcohol -- which probably was only a symptom.

Have done two Al-Anon meeting over the last two weeks, as well. Dunno if I fit there, either. Seems mostly like nice folks doing what I call "affirmations of the faith," (how wonderful Al-Anon has been for them), but no real specifics.

I am concerned that if I really opened up our/my stuff is WAY too deep for where the Al-Anon folks are at. Fortunately I am still a bit emotionally ******** so I get mush-mouth unless I am in persona mode, so I have not really said anything.

I guess I am supposed to do 6 weeks/meetings and then say Yes or No? Does that sound like what they tell you? When (or if) should I do the Ask for a Sponsor Thing? Maybe I should just go back to real therapy, instead? Dunno.

Thanks for reading.

Learn2Live

Hi Hammer.

Therapy only gets me so far. Does it "help" you? Taking action, any action, to move FORWARD in my life gets me the best results.

As for Al-Anon, I would do six, yes, but don't make them the same meeting. Try six different meetings (six different locations). If the people there sound boring to you or seem to be in a different "place" in life, Be the change you want to see in the world. Open up, talk to them about You.

p.s. Just because a person stops drinking for 12 years doesn't mean they have changed anything about themself.

Pelican

I agree with trying the 6. Different meetings if available would be helpful too.

Since you have been to AA meetings already, you know that the steps and principles of Alanon are similar. For me, the steps and principles apply to my "normal" life of work and children too. The steps and principles are helpful even if the alcoholic is no longer drinking. Our lives had become unmanageable and we use the steps and principles to learn to take care of ourselves in all areas.

Also, coming here and posting in Friends and Family is very helpful. There are other men and women here who have walked the same path as you.

Please read and post as often as needed. We're glad you are here.

Hammer

I guess like the auto ads say -- your mileage may vary -- but At least from my perspective formal therapy helped me a lot with my own PTSD stuff. But by the time I hit therapy, I had already done a lot of on-line group work, and walked in with my whole GO list -- what I had problems with, and how I wanted to come out -- all set. I just did not know how to get there. So therapy helped on that.

So I agree on move forward concept you are mentioning. Sometimes I have (way) too much of that as I am former military and engineer type. I understand (at least in words) that people are not projects or tasks, but I have a hard time on that.

I guess I am not clear if Al-Anon is really a clear path forward, or at least cannot "map" it in my mind, yet. I guess it seems more like a "Way of Life" thing rather than a clear Problem -> Cause -> Cure process?


Dunno that I can handle doing a bunch of meeting jumping. I kind of have a platoon or posse view of the world. Sort of like My Team, or My Group. I can live with boring -- had more than enough excitement for two to three lifetimes when it comes to this stuff. And I am pretty sure I do not need to want to change or "fix" them. I have a full-time job on fixing me. But maybe I am mis-understanding what you are saying?


I hear you, but I am sort of afraid of bothering them too deeply. When I first started therapy, I tried three therapists -- sort of like Goldilocks. The first T wanted to medicate me. Nope.

The second was listening to one of my PTSD trauma stories and was about to lose her cookies. I spent half the session trying to calm her back down. She was not going to cut it.

The third therapist was "just right."

I am sort of concerned that an Al-Anon group might be like the second therapist. I see we have that warnings on this site not to talk about traumatic details that may trigger others, as well.

I looked at the Pandora site they mention on here, but that first picture creeped me out. I have an application in to get back on to TWHJ.com, but have been booted off there in the past stuff -- 9 years ago -- so I do not know if they will let me back, or not.

Agreed.

That side of the equation is all "Maybe So, Maybe No."

But it is not my side of any problem is it? I do recall that from the very first of therapy. Boundaries. I guess the Al-Anon version is Did Not Cause, Cannot Control It, Cannot Cure It? So none of that is my problem or concern, right? I am not saying that is so, but I am asking?

Sorry for so many questions. Just not clear on all this in my mind, yet. Thanks L2L.

Learn2Live

Do you see how the focus of all these things you have been "doing" is from the perspective that there is something "wrong" with you or something that needs to be "fixed"?

Yes, I understand this. I understand a lot of things in words but I don't grasp them really. This apparently is part of my ADHD. It is much easier if I am doing something or seeing something or visualizing something. You don't need a project do you?

First, I think you are trying to PLAN your Recovery. I don't know if other people have done that or not, but I didn't. I just jumped in feet first. Once I got moving, I just kept moving. And I just keep moving now. Ya' gotta' get out of your comfort zone. Are you the kind of guy who when he goes to his favorite restaurant or ice cream place or whatever, you order the same thing every time?

Second, I don't personally believe 12-Step programs are supposed to be either a Way of Life, or a Cure process. Sure, you can make it a way of life but I chose to make it an awareness and learning tool. I implemented the process of the steps, then moved on and applied them to what I did next and next and next. It really doesn't stop. You don't have to focus on relationships for the steps. You apply the steps to everything and you don't have to do it in order. I learned the steps 12 years ago and I am only just now doing Steps 2 and 3.

There's no cure for being human. Ya' know?

I don't know what I said that you might be misunderstanding. All I know is it sounds to me like you are way stuck in your ways. I can be too, very much so. So, I have to FORCE myself out of Me. If you don't want to use Al-Anon to get somewhere, then don't. But it sounds to me like you are afraid of the unknown and the unfamiliar. Start small, try a different flavor, wear a different color, take the bus instead of your car.

And stop trying to fix yourself. You're not a lawnmower. There's nothing wrong with you.

If you feel like you are bothering them, you could just ask them whether or not you are bothering them. People who go to Al-Anon are not meant to be therapists. The're just people just like me and you who want to share and support eachother by just being there and to get new ways of looking at things. You're closed I think.

Do you really need another therapist? Couldn't you go hiking in the Swiss Alps, skiing in Utah, or jump out of an airplane instead? Something you always wanted to see or do that you just haven't gotten around to yet?

Right. But, it's not just not your side of the problem. It's none of your business really. (That's what my brother told me. It helped me immensely to finally see what I was doing. Meddling in another person's business.) Your life is your business. Start living it.

Hammer

Thanks for trying to help L2L, but I have say you are making no sense to me. Which does not mean I am right, or that you are wrong, but that I cannot make sense of it yet.

You are correct -- I DO think something is wrong with me. Maybe some background would make sense? Here is a letter I sent to Mrs. Hammer's Mom earlier this week -- since she had been dragged into our mess. I did this very open and above board, with Mrs. Hammer having veto authority in case anything was harmful to anyone.

I have edited out direct names and locations. Does this not look like I really do have some problems to work on? I am really asking. Maybe you or someone can tell me where I am off-base on this?

=====================

About Going Crazy . . . .

Hey [Mother In Law],

Just a Check In to let you know we are doing better.

With my brain cooling down, I can look back and see that I ran pretty hard across some lines involving you in this, especially as far as [Mrs. Hammer] is concerned. A life-time ago I had a girlfriend that would go talk to my Mom behind my back and it used to REALLY annoy me and I resented it – so I figure it probably makes [Mrs. Hammer] feel the same way.

So I am sending you this note to let you know where things are, our plans, and while I do not plan to bother you further with this stuff, to let you know you may contact or question me if you have any problems with us or me, or concerns for the kids.

You know enough of my background to know that I was in therapy when [Mrs. Hammer] and I met. I was in for dealing with PTSD type stuff from Childhood Sexual Abuse, and [Mrs. Hammer] was in AA. Our first “date” was at my therapist’s office. So kind-of-messed-up is sort of normal for us. [Mrs. Hammer] would go along to therapy with me one day a week as my “buddy,” and I would go along to an AA meeting with her one day a week.

So I finished up about the time it was time to take [Mrs. Hammer] up to New Jersey – and you know how that went. In that part of things I feel very blessed and happy. I really (really, really) wanted to believe I was completely done with that stuff after I finished therapy, and did not want to consider having to revisit it.

But after the kids came along, I have had about one Crazy Freak Out Episode per year. You have been through a couple of episodes of this with me, and I guess by now heard rumors of some of the others.

I started listing some of them out, to see if I could find anything in common among them.

Here are a few of them, and I do not see where [Mrs. Hammer] had a major part in even half my episodes – change that. After writing some of these out I guess my behaviors with [Mrs. Hammer] might be a part of it, or at least part of me being crazy. Not saying it is somehow her fault or blame, but rather if my crazy has some relation to her it may be suitable for Al-Anon.

===================

Trench Mouth [Mrs. Hammer’s High School Friend] – at your house.

Background: After [Kid #2] was born, we were visiting [hometown]. [Mrs. H High School Friend] stopped by and was sitting with [Mrs. Hammer] and the kids in your living room. [Mrs. H High School Friend] had recently had trench mouth from her emotional and physical exhaustion with moving to and from Florida and their house being destroyed by the Hurricanes. [Mrs. H High School Friend] was holding [Kid #2].

What I saw: Fungus Faced [Mrs. H High School Friend] with a mouthful of flesh-eating bacteria was slobbering and drooling (open mouth kissing) on top of [Kid #2]’s head when he was a baby.

My reaction: I wound up standing him on his head in the sink scrubbing the Cooties off.

What Stopped it: You (Mother in law) stopped that one by taking [Kid #2] away and giving him a bath.

After: I am now aware that [Mrs. H High School Friend] did not have flesh eating bacteria. But I still want to keep her bottled on a shelf and keep her away from the kids.

--------------------------------

[Spring Festival]

Background: [Spring Festival] is a large outdoor park sort of party. My friends set up part of their show, and there are all sorts of fun things for the kids.

What I saw through my eyes: I was playing something with [Kid #1] and [Mrs. Hammer] had [Kid #2] and put him in a large castle maze I looked over and saw through a window that an older boy was chasing after and hitting [Kid #2].

My reaction: I reached through the window and pushed the bigger kid down. I climbed in the front and dragged [Kid #2] out, got [Kid #1] and started heading out of the place. [Mrs. Hammer] seen us and caught up. By the time we made it to the parking lot, I was so mad, I intentionally backed my truck into a car that had parked us in.

What Stopped It: When [Kid #1] asked me why I hit that car and I said because I could not hit her momma. I became aware how crazy it all was and stopped.

After: I need to talk to [Mrs. Hammer] when I have problems with her – not drive over other people’s cars.

-----------------------------------

Shreveport Park – You were there for this one, too.

Background: I do not even recall what we were doing in Shreveport, but we were stopping by a local city park..

What I saw through my eyes: [Kid #2] had messed his pants or something, and [Mrs. Hammer] was going to change him on the Urine Covered Concrete Floor of the Park Stank-Hole where AIDS infested and Hep-C positive junkies shoot up.

My reaction: I wanted to get the kids out of there, and to the hotel and out of the junkie park. I was going to load all the kids in car and get us out of there.

What Stopped it: [Mrs. Hammer] ordered me to park the car and stop being crazy. I deeply respect [Mrs. Hammer], so when she actually gives an order, I stop and follow it.

After: Dunno. Other than I seem to follow [Mrs. Hammer]’s orders. Good thing to know, but not a good way to live for her or me.

----------------------------------

The Home Church People –

After a bunch of church failures on my part – I would take the kids to church and all the church people would get weird on me and try to pry the kids out of my hands and put them in the nursery. But between my abuse background issues and [Mrs. Hammer] being a Social Worker – that could not happen – so I would wind up sitting in the nursery with the kids.

Pretty much had given up on church when [Mrs. Hammer] had made friends with a nurse at the Little Gym where her and our kids played. The nurse and her husband were pretty nice folks and held a church in their house, along with monthly get-togethers of their larger church.

[Mrs. Hammer] had not gotten to see much of the church side of the church group as she had been tied up with the kids when we did the house visits. So she was going to hang out with her nurse friend, and I went down to the kids’ section, with [Kid #1] and the boys. [Kid #3] was asleep in the car carrier, and [Kid #2] was asleep over my shoulder. [Kid #1] went and sat with kids in the class.

What I saw through my eyes: Things looked ok to start. Most of the kids were screwing around, but [Kid #1] was completely earnest. The story time was getting a little weirder and weirder. After about 20 to 30 minutes, [Kid #1] came running towards me sobbing saying – They Killed God and Are Going To Do Something With the Blood. The church freaks were running after her. They were messing with [Kid #1]’s head, and were clearly “enemy.”

My reaction: I picked [Kid #1] up (along with [Kid #3] still asleep in the car carrier, and [Kid #2] asleep over my shoulder), and went running down the hallway, yelling, “It is a F-ing Blood Death Cult” or some such thing. I found [Mrs. Hammer] with the Nurse friend, and I was still yelling. I had all three kids and headed out the door. [Mrs. Hammer] was dragging along behind apologizing for us.

What stopped it: After I got the kids loaded in the Jeep, [Mrs. Hammer] took over explaining religious concepts to [Kid #1] and when I saw [Kid #1] was going to be okay, I calmed down.

Afterwards: We have not been back. Totally given up on church type stuff. While folks laugh pretty hard about this story, looking back I do not really think I would/could behave any different if it were today, so I do not think there has been much learning for me in it.

-----------------------------------------------

[D]:

Background: [D] was an old friend / (what I would call a boyfriend) of [Mrs. Hammer]’s that she used to drink and drug with.. She has had a picture / business card of him in her wallet for years, which had always struck me a little odd. Recently, [D] found [Mrs. Hammer] on Facebook and they had sent some notes.

I wandered into this when I came home from work one night and [Mrs. Hammer] had left up an email she had sent to her AA sponsor “C.” In it she said she still loved [D] “like a brother,” and was concerned about being involved with him as [Hammer] (me) and [D]’s wife may be hurt. And that she wanted to send him a long letter saying she was sorry for all that had went wrong between her and him.

What I saw through my eyes: [Mrs. Hammer] was going to send secret notes back and forth, and hook up with this guy because that is what all the inbred hillbillies in [Hometown] do. If she got into a relationship with some of the local trash, the kids would be totally screwed over. And even worse on the front end, [Mrs. Hammer]’s idiot sponsor was going to Green Light the mess.

My reaction: Extreme anger. Intense jealousy. And to try to stop anything that may lead or hint towards my feared outcome.

What stopped it: Dunno. Ran its course? This one went pretty deep and long

After: Dunno. Still sort of a mess. I have hurt [Mrs. Hammer]’s feelings and trust on this one, and am sort of sad that it turned out I do not trust her like I thought I did, and it has made all my sense of what is real seem very fuzzy, too.

===============================

What to Do, Where to Go

What I know for sure: These Crazy Episodes are not normal with normal people

I do not think I have any idea of when it is coming, nor what will trigger it/them, and once I start into them, I sincerely believe I am acting totally rational. That does not tend to add up to anything that is really self-manageable, or as folks often tell me – “You might have handled that a bit different.” At the time(s), I think I am thinking really clearly.

While all that may sound “bad” on the surface, it lets me know that I am probably outside the “self-help” range, or in my more standard practice – self-cobble -- and so that makes it easy for me to say I am in deep and ask for help.

My present best guess “internet diagnosis” is Hyper-Vigilant Over-Reaction. It is where I am always in a state of looking for something to be “wrong,” and when anything triggers it I overreact in crazy ways. Looks pretty much textbook as part of the PTSD Child hood stuff. Just add anything I think may harm the kids and I go on Freak Out mode.

Al-Anon:
I told you last week that I was signing up for Al-Anon, so that is done or on-going at least. I have done a 20 Questions list related to that, and talked with one of [Mrs. Hammer]’s Al-Anon guru friends. I guess it sounds like if I keep the Childhood Sexual Abuse issues toned way down (a LOT of folks have those problems, there), and sort of substitute phrases like “the Problem(s)” for “alcohol” in discussions it may be an okay fit.

On-line:
I signed up at [soberrecovery.com] for Al-Anon type stuff, and [twhj.com] – that is an abuse recovery site I have worked on my stuff before. And been kicked off a couple of times.


“Real” Therapy:
If this does not look like it will clean up with those, I will get back into Real Therapy with my old therapist.

======================

So I guess that is the present condition report. Could be better, but it could be worse.

Please keep us in your heart and in your prayers.

For my part I will try to keep my eye on the promise -- ALL things work together for Good for those who Love the Lord.

So I will work on my part of loving Good and the Lord. And let Him handle His part about All Things Working Together for Good. He tends to be better on His end than I am on mine.

soberat23

i agree with all of these>

Learn2Live

Hammer,

You don't sound "crazy" to me. I totally see why you reacted the way you reacted in every single one of those stories. And I totally see why you wrote the letter to the Mother-In-Law. I don't see anything wrong with doing that.

Did you physically harm someone like hit them or beat them up, that you're not revealing in your posts? Are you addicted to alcohol or drugs and actively using? Are you cutting yourself, starving yourself, or otherwise hurting yourself on purpose? Are you unwilling or incapable of holding a job?

Hammer, I also was abused by no less than five different people by the time I reached the age of 10. I also have been told I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (no official diagnosis on my medical record though). You don't have to talk about these things in Al-Anon if you don't want to. Some people choose to talk about it, some people don't. But when we ALL choose not to talk about it, then we ALL live alone with it. Sometimes it just takes ONE person to talk about it for many others to feel comfortable talking about what happened to them too. I am usually the one to blurt out all kinds of things about myself because I have to share; I have to get it out.

I saw what you wrote about being "kicked" on SR. If anyone ever "kicks" you on SR, you could just send them a note and ask them not to do that again.

We are all just like you. Human.

Hammer

sure. I guess I can follow the "reasoning." But normal people do not do those things. I really (really, really, really) want to at least be able to choose to behave like normal people. When I am going crazy, I am not really running the show.

No, never, thankfully. Planned on one day I would go perp hunting. Figured all my Army training was going to waste. But making it through all the prior therapy and group work took that away. As well as a lot of prayers. (TY, J). I learned that it is much more fun and effective to return good for the evil that has been given to you (or us).

But I do have the capacity to do harm, probably more capacity than many others, so I do keep some background concern about that for the "crazy" stuff.

No. Not even a little. My basic programming is anti-addictive, as that have to be self-evaluated as a weakness.

No, but my stomach was upset about the old boyfriend thing, I could barely eat for a week and lost 8 pounds. Back down to Army weight.

No, usually have folks lined up. Advanced Engineering degrees and all. Mrs. Hammer has me steered off of weapons designs, now. Now I usually try to sort which projects to take by some ethical and "most good" model. I am doing some teaching at a local technical college, now. Power systems with an emphasis on "green" or renewable energy.

Sorry on you. Have you done any online or formal work on it? That can REALLY help with the nightmares, and all. I did not have to get the formal diagnosis, either as I paid my own therapy -- non-VA.

I do recall after wandering into on-line therapy that I was amazed how many of *us* there are. And I loved helping in that domain -- more of that "return good" for the evil paid us.

I was helping one girl who could not read or write well (her Dad would beat her with her school books and rape her), and brought her from barely able to type or spell to being able to discuss and work through problems.

Mrs. Hammer was also watching me do that on-line before we had met in real life, and said she wanted to meet to me because she never knew a man could be so loving. (To me that was/is the Highest compliment I have ever gotten in my life -- because I used to be so hate-filled). (again, TY, J)

Thanks.

Sorry I did not mean "kicked" here on Sober Recovery. I have only been here a couple of days. Everyone here seems fine. I just do not want to be the one who gets out of bounds with some of my stuff.

What I meant was that I formally kicked out of TWHJ.com. That is a mostly women Sexual Abuse recovery site, and I would get a little crazy working through some of my earlier stuff. I support them in booting me out when/if I am disruptive to the greatest healing of the greater group.

coyote21

Hammer,
I'd posted a great reply to you, then went to another web sight to copy a url, came back and it was gone, damn. I would have done most of what you describe in you letter to MIL. We are men and are here to protect our kids. Job one. Period.

I must say your writing style is very entertaining/funny. However, I know NOT funny at the time. But honestly, I must also say,I am not a very good yard stick of 'normal'.

The one story, Mrs. Trenchmouth, good stuff, and appropriate action. With the possible exception, of upside in the sink part.

When I was still married to my AXW, and my now 8yo daughter was just barely walking, my x's 21yo nasty, drunk, skanky cousin had blessed us with her presence. She, along with my X, was about half in the bag when she arrived. As she approached our porch she was proceeded by the biggest, nastiest, oozingest, neon headlight of a fever blister I've ever seen before or since.

Naturally her first act, kids first right, was to pick up my beautiful/precious little girl and attempt to lay a big wet one right on HER mouth. Luckily, her daddy was there to save her, but damn, the nonsense I CHOSE to allow myself to be subjected to my those two afterward was crazy. I had soooo offended her skankiness. Funny now, not so much back then.

I've been in AlAnon for 3+ years and it is teaching me how to "act" normally. I think the idea of 6 different meetings is to try to find your fit/posse, so you can stick w/them.

One last suggestion, since you didn't have the best childhood (understatement of the year award goes to ...), my first suspicion is alcohol/drug abuse MUST have been involved. IDK, I was under the impression that average/lucid people don't usually screw kids. Have you done the screening quiz for adult children of alcoholics?

It's has dawned on me since AlAnon, that my favorite, most loved man in my life, my Gramps, he was basically like a dad to me, was probably an alcoholic. I spent alot of my early/formative years there. My mom wasn't but she married at least 2 of them. I'll never know, all the players are dead.

Any way, Alanon, when done right (there's healthy groups and sick groups), is basically a blueprint for living.

Any way, good luck to you man, stick around.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote