well, you were right.
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Originally Posted by TakingCharge999 
A common friend told me "of course" ex had felt something for me. That one day he cried at the office and asked this friend to go out and he cried. It hurts to know some of that may have been real. Or perhaps he was crying just like he did after the verbal abuse. Crying his heart out. Al Pacino would pale in acting skills. Then he goes, doing the same exact thing. Madness.
By now I have learned i have been the same way, falling on the same mistakes. Just as this is my bottom in my own time, their bottom will come one day. If they are lucky. That is a law of life, you don't learn a lesson? well, here goes another test, and this time if you don't learn, there will be more at stake you lose and much more pain.
Today I prefer to go for the N version above. It was all a show to attract an enabler. People just don't change that fast. I think its a mix between N, alcoholism and just being a jerk. I recall him being a jerk totally sober, so alcohol was no longer my excuse....
I realized I was addicted to this person that no longer exists. So its just like AA. JUST FOR TODAY I won't contact ex. JUST FOR TODAY I will be patient with myself if I feel blue or miss the good times. JUST FOR TODAY I will accept whatever God-HP sends my way. JUST FOR TODAY I won't accept invitations to engange in things that make me feel bad. JUST FOR TODAY I take care of myself.
After going crazier than I am trying to figure him out, I started seeing him as a madman. He does not know either why he does what he does. He is crazy. If I see a crazy person I know he is gone somewhere. I don't try to figure him out. I just walk away. This has helped me stop trying to find out the why's... the only answer to that is "he is an addict and addicts destroy, its the only thing they know and will keep doing, they are experts".
Queenie all I can say is enough will be enough.
And that there are many WONDERFUL MEN waiting for you, who can offer friendship and romance if you decide to be free
I hated to listen to this, I wanted my ex, no one else!! but now I know I was settling for nothing, and there are people that can offer you many wonderful gifts. But you need to allow yourself to receive them first....
i feel like he was just using me though. he wanted to parade me around his office and at parties that his ex was at. i remember we had dinner at another couple's house and he was telling a story, but never ONCE looked at me while telling the story...i always felt overlooked, ignored, devalued except if he needed me to feel good about himself. he once told me that he needed me....then a few days later when i brought that up, he said "i need you to be different." what does a person say to that??? he said i wasn't doing enough for the relationship. what did he want from me? why wasn't it good enough? what wasn't i doing??
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Hi Queenie. I am you and you are me. It's scary how we are ALL going thru the same things in our lives.
Yes.
The same thing he is trying to get out of every relationship with every other person in his life: Assurance that you will provide him with support, familiarity, comfort, someone to fall back on if his other enablers and possible enablers fall short of what he needs.
I am glad you are in this place in your life. But do you realize you have jumped back onto HIS rollercoaster and you're not enjoying the ride?
Yes it's possible, but consider your experience with this person and ask yourself "Does it even matter what he is feeling?"
In all life and with all people there is ALWAYS something else going on. All of us have more than one motivation for everything we do. Some of our motivations and reasons for doing the things we do are stronger than others. His behavior probably stems from many different feelings and needs and wants.
Try to think of it this way: his addiction does not define him, it affects him. In other words, his addiction is not necessarily the only thing that motivates him but it is the STRONGEST influence in his life. At this point in his life, he has to mold EVERY part of himself (his feelings, his desires, his behavior, his environment, and his choices regarding who he associates with) around his addiction. He may in fact love you and care about you, etc but his addiction is DEFINITELY the stronger influence behind his behavior and the choices he has to make.
Yes.
The same thing he is trying to get out of every relationship with every other person in his life: Assurance that you will provide him with support, familiarity, comfort, someone to fall back on if his other enablers and possible enablers fall short of what he needs.
I am glad you are in this place in your life. But do you realize you have jumped back onto HIS rollercoaster and you're not enjoying the ride?
Yes it's possible, but consider your experience with this person and ask yourself "Does it even matter what he is feeling?"
In all life and with all people there is ALWAYS something else going on. All of us have more than one motivation for everything we do. Some of our motivations and reasons for doing the things we do are stronger than others. His behavior probably stems from many different feelings and needs and wants.
Try to think of it this way: his addiction does not define him, it affects him. In other words, his addiction is not necessarily the only thing that motivates him but it is the STRONGEST influence in his life. At this point in his life, he has to mold EVERY part of himself (his feelings, his desires, his behavior, his environment, and his choices regarding who he associates with) around his addiction. He may in fact love you and care about you, etc but his addiction is DEFINITELY the stronger influence behind his behavior and the choices he has to make.
The same thing he is trying to get out of every relationship with every other person in his life: Assurance that you will provide him with support, familiarity, comfort, someone to fall back on if his other enablers and possible enablers fall short of what he needs.
Try to think of it this way: his addiction does not define him, it affects him. In other words, his addiction is not necessarily the only thing that motivates him but it is the STRONGEST influence in his life. At this point in his life, he has to mold EVERY part of himself (his feelings, his desires, his behavior, his environment, and his choices regarding who he associates with) around his addiction.[/B] He may in fact love you and care about you, etc but his addiction is DEFINITELY the stronger influence behind his behavior and the choices he has to make.
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You know, Queenie, all these questions about HIM swirling around in your head are a very effective deterrent in you getting down to brass tacks and working on your own recovery.
You could essentially spend the next ten years dissecting/analyzing/hypothesizing/criticizing everything he's done, and you're no further down your own road of recovery.
You're still stuck in the same spot.
Personally I prefer to move forward, even though I may stub my toe along the way!
You could essentially spend the next ten years dissecting/analyzing/hypothesizing/criticizing everything he's done, and you're no further down your own road of recovery.
You're still stuck in the same spot.
Personally I prefer to move forward, even though I may stub my toe along the way!
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 145
Wow this thread is such an eye opener. And apologies for this rambling message (I've just read it back) but was just listing thoughts as I had them. I really find posting on here helps me escape my sadness, even takes me away from it altogether as I read of everyone else's experience and realise I'm not on my own. Temporarily helps me forget my ex, even though he's the sole reason i joined the website.
You, Queenie, and your xabf, sound exactly like me and my xabf. EXACTLY! Except mine remained charming to the end - that feeling of making me feel the most special girl in the world died after a few months into the relationship, but we fell for each other all over again (because of circumstances going on in his life which I felt brought us closer together) and the feelings (real or not) never died again (at least he always acted that way - forever telling me he loved me, forever telling me he fancied me, I was beautiful, etc). I'm also like you in that I'm nowhere near ready to move on. Above all I don't think it would be fair on any other man out there right now. Which is stupid I know as in some ways I feel like I'm still letting him rule me, wasting my time while getting over him when I should be out there having fun,
The word narcissistic has never ever really featured in my vocab and until the last week I have never really thought of my ex as one. Ironically New Year's Eve 2006 (our first NY together) we were playing Trivial Pursuit with his mum and he asked a question about narcissism and his clue to me was, 'What am I?' and when I found out the answer was narcissism I really didn't understand why he'd said that as I'd never thought of him as such. I always thought it was just someone who loved themselves, fell in love with their reflection, etc.
I know some of you have posted on my thread in the last couple of days or so as I recently discovered my xabf is now working. The one thing that stopped us moving in together is I wouldn't unless he worked. I remember posting 'how could he do it for this new woman and not for me'. Today his picture came up on my fb page as he posted on a mutual friend's wall. I have not seen him since early June and he looks like he's lost loads of weight. So now I'm thinking 'has he really given up drinking?' The last week we were together I paid for him to go to an Allen Carr clinic and he didn't go and then he dumped me - I presumed he didn't want to give up drinking. I don't know he has, but he certainly looks thinner and healthier.
Now we never lived together, but they do - I think for about two months. And I'm thinking is this all part of the narcissist in him? Acting the perfect bf while under her roof? Cos three months ago he did not even want to give up drinking. And as I said before he couldn't do it for his ex of 10 years, their two children, or me, so how come he seems to be able to for a woman and four kids that aren't his?
Aboutdone I found your post fairly interesting. As I think if my ex could have given up drinking maybe his narcisstic behaviour would have come to an end - just like that. But it can't - can it?
Queenie I've just picked up on your highlight about the disappointing gift giver - I haven't opened the link or read it yet (I will the second I stop posting!) but in all the time we were together I got one CD from him for my birthday. Never a card. It never really bothered me as I always (perhaps naively) felt he showed me love and for me that was enough. But I understand from this post of yours it was yet another trait of narcissism.#
TC yet again I read your words of wisdom with the utmost respect. 'People don't just change that fast'. From an outside point of view it certainly looks like my ex has. He looks physically better according to the fb photo. And I'm still bowled over that he is working. When we were together he said he'd never have another 9-5 job, but would rather write comedy, or try to become a comedian himself. All the words of encouragement I gave him. I even said I'd help him (I am a writer so said I'd structure his ideas on paper!) And then your words TC have hit me 'It was all just a show to attract an enabler'. The one thing this woman has above me is she has her own place. I don't. He needs company 24/7. I couldn't give that to him. Although it looks as though he's doing well from the outside, he probably is, but how long he keeps it up is another matter. I always believed he could pull himself up and constantly told him that. I was with him for three years and never lived with him. His ex of 10 years, who lived with him for more than nine, was always and is still always, waiting for him to slip up. And your words about still being attracted to someone that no longer exists.... I'm like Queenie, I obsess still about where and why things went wrong. But the one thing I always tell myself is we had three fun years together and I loved him. I may sometimes want that back but that person no longer exists, at least not towards me. It's a great way to pull yourself together and stop from texting / dialling.
You, Queenie, and your xabf, sound exactly like me and my xabf. EXACTLY! Except mine remained charming to the end - that feeling of making me feel the most special girl in the world died after a few months into the relationship, but we fell for each other all over again (because of circumstances going on in his life which I felt brought us closer together) and the feelings (real or not) never died again (at least he always acted that way - forever telling me he loved me, forever telling me he fancied me, I was beautiful, etc). I'm also like you in that I'm nowhere near ready to move on. Above all I don't think it would be fair on any other man out there right now. Which is stupid I know as in some ways I feel like I'm still letting him rule me, wasting my time while getting over him when I should be out there having fun,
The word narcissistic has never ever really featured in my vocab and until the last week I have never really thought of my ex as one. Ironically New Year's Eve 2006 (our first NY together) we were playing Trivial Pursuit with his mum and he asked a question about narcissism and his clue to me was, 'What am I?' and when I found out the answer was narcissism I really didn't understand why he'd said that as I'd never thought of him as such. I always thought it was just someone who loved themselves, fell in love with their reflection, etc.
I know some of you have posted on my thread in the last couple of days or so as I recently discovered my xabf is now working. The one thing that stopped us moving in together is I wouldn't unless he worked. I remember posting 'how could he do it for this new woman and not for me'. Today his picture came up on my fb page as he posted on a mutual friend's wall. I have not seen him since early June and he looks like he's lost loads of weight. So now I'm thinking 'has he really given up drinking?' The last week we were together I paid for him to go to an Allen Carr clinic and he didn't go and then he dumped me - I presumed he didn't want to give up drinking. I don't know he has, but he certainly looks thinner and healthier.
Now we never lived together, but they do - I think for about two months. And I'm thinking is this all part of the narcissist in him? Acting the perfect bf while under her roof? Cos three months ago he did not even want to give up drinking. And as I said before he couldn't do it for his ex of 10 years, their two children, or me, so how come he seems to be able to for a woman and four kids that aren't his?
Aboutdone I found your post fairly interesting. As I think if my ex could have given up drinking maybe his narcisstic behaviour would have come to an end - just like that. But it can't - can it?
Queenie I've just picked up on your highlight about the disappointing gift giver - I haven't opened the link or read it yet (I will the second I stop posting!) but in all the time we were together I got one CD from him for my birthday. Never a card. It never really bothered me as I always (perhaps naively) felt he showed me love and for me that was enough. But I understand from this post of yours it was yet another trait of narcissism.#
TC yet again I read your words of wisdom with the utmost respect. 'People don't just change that fast'. From an outside point of view it certainly looks like my ex has. He looks physically better according to the fb photo. And I'm still bowled over that he is working. When we were together he said he'd never have another 9-5 job, but would rather write comedy, or try to become a comedian himself. All the words of encouragement I gave him. I even said I'd help him (I am a writer so said I'd structure his ideas on paper!) And then your words TC have hit me 'It was all just a show to attract an enabler'. The one thing this woman has above me is she has her own place. I don't. He needs company 24/7. I couldn't give that to him. Although it looks as though he's doing well from the outside, he probably is, but how long he keeps it up is another matter. I always believed he could pull himself up and constantly told him that. I was with him for three years and never lived with him. His ex of 10 years, who lived with him for more than nine, was always and is still always, waiting for him to slip up. And your words about still being attracted to someone that no longer exists.... I'm like Queenie, I obsess still about where and why things went wrong. But the one thing I always tell myself is we had three fun years together and I loved him. I may sometimes want that back but that person no longer exists, at least not towards me. It's a great way to pull yourself together and stop from texting / dialling.
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how do the people around him, his friends and family, coworkers, not bring things up like this?? are they all afraid to tell him the truth? it's like a huge elephant in the room that everyone is avoiding, and i felt like i was the only one who thought that something was wrong with that. i felt crazy!!!
JOIN THE CLUB!!!!!!
And this is where you learn to trust YOUR experience, YOUR gut feeling, YOUR conclusions next to this man... they are not less valid just because you feel you are the only one who has seen those aspects of him...!
As an intuitive empath I can put myself in the shoes of everyone around
- the dad, doesn't see him much, he is busy himself with a new gf, not sure if he knows in which state his son arrived home as he (the dad) never slept home anyway
- his mom died years ago
- his sister is busy with his bf isolated in her room.
- his friends + gf have a clown and someone who buys the bottles and drives
- his coworkers think he is a social drinker at events
So why would anyone do anything? If he insulted his friends perhaps they would say something, if somehow the others were abused they would complain... or perhaps they are so used to his bad tripping they don't give a damn anymore... perhaps some of them have already talked to him to no avail (as I learned with some of the common friends)... someone else told me "he has been like that since I know him"... some others feel "to each his own"... etc etc.... your vision is only partial... but you got to trust yourself on this one all of what happened is real and his disease is very real. Alcoholism is a downward spiral, there is no linearity, things may seem great and then WHAM yet another disaster, loss, accident, illness....
Precisely because you were very close to him you should not be fooled by what others think or say about him... you know better than all of them! I was fed up with that so I just stopped talking to anyone who had an opinion as an outsider!
sclarke, I also thought ex had changed, and others have told me so, but after zooming out I buy more into the idea of the ex always having this sadness inside, and needed an enabler so he acted nice, and put a different face than the real him... I am not sure if this is true (common friends said he was really into me and loved me in our time, blah blah) but it really helps me to think its all alcoholism..... and when I got healthier it was easier for him to find another one than to see his reality. It is too painful to think they were a nice person inside. I prefer to think he was the devil and had everything pre planned to suit his needs. This helps me move on.
Perhaps after some time I will remember the good times, accept the past, etc etc but for now I prefer to think love was never there and he never really cared or knew ME.
Anyhow, and back to the present moment, I am very glad you are all out there, I do not feel alone. Eventhough it hurts a lot we are all better off without addicted people in our lives. We are just better off.
And i would like to mention there are so many nice guys out there. Its as if I was blind to them before. Now I am getting a different idea of how real men are like and I am reconciling with that gender lol. I realized I had no male figure really, one grandfather died before I was born, another one abandoned my grandmother with 9 children, my dad was not there for me either. No wonder I always looked for absent partners in one way or the other!
Sometimes you got to destroy a wall altogether so you can rebuild it with solid foundations and get it right this time.. it gets better... it really does
JOIN THE CLUB!!!!!!
And this is where you learn to trust YOUR experience, YOUR gut feeling, YOUR conclusions next to this man... they are not less valid just because you feel you are the only one who has seen those aspects of him...!
As an intuitive empath I can put myself in the shoes of everyone around
- the dad, doesn't see him much, he is busy himself with a new gf, not sure if he knows in which state his son arrived home as he (the dad) never slept home anyway
- his mom died years ago
- his sister is busy with his bf isolated in her room.
- his friends + gf have a clown and someone who buys the bottles and drives
- his coworkers think he is a social drinker at events
So why would anyone do anything? If he insulted his friends perhaps they would say something, if somehow the others were abused they would complain... or perhaps they are so used to his bad tripping they don't give a damn anymore... perhaps some of them have already talked to him to no avail (as I learned with some of the common friends)... someone else told me "he has been like that since I know him"... some others feel "to each his own"... etc etc.... your vision is only partial... but you got to trust yourself on this one all of what happened is real and his disease is very real. Alcoholism is a downward spiral, there is no linearity, things may seem great and then WHAM yet another disaster, loss, accident, illness....
Precisely because you were very close to him you should not be fooled by what others think or say about him... you know better than all of them! I was fed up with that so I just stopped talking to anyone who had an opinion as an outsider!
sclarke, I also thought ex had changed, and others have told me so, but after zooming out I buy more into the idea of the ex always having this sadness inside, and needed an enabler so he acted nice, and put a different face than the real him... I am not sure if this is true (common friends said he was really into me and loved me in our time, blah blah) but it really helps me to think its all alcoholism..... and when I got healthier it was easier for him to find another one than to see his reality. It is too painful to think they were a nice person inside. I prefer to think he was the devil and had everything pre planned to suit his needs. This helps me move on.
Perhaps after some time I will remember the good times, accept the past, etc etc but for now I prefer to think love was never there and he never really cared or knew ME.
Anyhow, and back to the present moment, I am very glad you are all out there, I do not feel alone. Eventhough it hurts a lot we are all better off without addicted people in our lives. We are just better off.
And i would like to mention there are so many nice guys out there. Its as if I was blind to them before. Now I am getting a different idea of how real men are like and I am reconciling with that gender lol. I realized I had no male figure really, one grandfather died before I was born, another one abandoned my grandmother with 9 children, my dad was not there for me either. No wonder I always looked for absent partners in one way or the other!
Sometimes you got to destroy a wall altogether so you can rebuild it with solid foundations and get it right this time.. it gets better... it really does
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
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Aaaaah, thank you again TC. And thank you Queenie for posting that narcissism link. Not every bit of it rung true but a lot of it did. Especially the very last bit about how narcissists cannot be on their own as they don't like their own company. I believe this is a large part of the reason the ex left me (we were together a maximum of two nights a week and he never had money to go to the pub with friends so we would have a telephone relationship as we lived 30 miles away - she is the first person to show him attention and hey, guess what, she lived in the same village as him, had her own place and hey presto he was staying there every day within weeks of ending it with me and is now living there full time - how long for remains to be seen!!)
Well, I'm done. I've had a lovely weekend so far catching up with friends and now i'm tired. Take care TC and Queenie and I'll tune in tomorrow XXX
Well, I'm done. I've had a lovely weekend so far catching up with friends and now i'm tired. Take care TC and Queenie and I'll tune in tomorrow XXX
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Originally Posted by anvilhead
you weren't doing anything WRONG, queenie...he had this image of a mythical perfect addition that would make him look and feel larger than life....all that and a bag of chips....he simply wanted you to serve a role in his life.....he was incapable of respecting and honoring who you ARE...only who he needed you to be, so HE could feel OK.
it was never about YOU. he never saw YOU.
it was never about YOU. he never saw YOU.
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Originally Posted by Freedom1990
You know, Queenie, all these questions about HIM swirling around in your head are a very effective deterrent in you getting down to brass tacks and working on your own recovery.
You could essentially spend the next ten years dissecting/analyzing/hypothesizing/criticizing everything he's done, and you're no further down your own road of recovery.
You're still stuck in the same spot.
Personally I prefer to move forward, even though I may stub my toe along the way!
You could essentially spend the next ten years dissecting/analyzing/hypothesizing/criticizing everything he's done, and you're no further down your own road of recovery.
You're still stuck in the same spot.
Personally I prefer to move forward, even though I may stub my toe along the way!
it's soooo frustrating but i guess i'm the kind of person that just wants answers. i'm always asking questions, i just wanna know why! but i realize that sometimes, in this case in particular, i might not ever get answers to my questions. someone i know calls it going down the rathole...i keep asking myself all these questions and i'm going down further and further into the rathole. so how do i let go??? with all the frustration and unanswered questions, the hurt and anger, the fact that i feel jilted and injusticed and disrespected and overlooked and just plain used and discarded...how do you get all past that?
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Location: Starting over all over again
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Hello there queenie
What my sponsor taught me is that I can only think of _one_ person at a time. As long as I was thinking about my ex, and her three boyfriends, and her pill adiction, and on and on... I was _not_ thinking about me and making _my_ life better.
What I did to get past all that was grab the phone list from my al-anon meetings, start at the top and called every single guy on those lists. (You can call the ladies
) I asked them how _they_ were doing, and for those 10 - 15 minutes on the phone I stopped thinking about my ex, and just listened to other people. Took me _weeks_ to make it thru all the phone lists, and when I was done I started all over again.
I read the al-anon books. _All_ of them. Really read them, not just skimmed thru. I underlined stuff that applied to me, then I shared at my meets what I had learned. I volunteered to help set up the meets, and take them down.
The more time I spent making _me_ a better person, and making _my_ life better, the lees time I spent thinking about my ex. I'm a slow learner, so it took me awhile, but eventually the obsession went away. I have a new life now, even a new girlfriend who is much healthier than my ex.
One day at a time, one phone call at a time, one _thought_ at a time, is how I did it.
Mike
Originally Posted by queenie88
...so how do i let go??? with all the frustration and unanswered questions, the hurt and anger, the fact that i feel jilted and injusticed and disrespected and overlooked and just plain used and discarded...how do you get all past that?
What I did to get past all that was grab the phone list from my al-anon meetings, start at the top and called every single guy on those lists. (You can call the ladies
) I asked them how _they_ were doing, and for those 10 - 15 minutes on the phone I stopped thinking about my ex, and just listened to other people. Took me _weeks_ to make it thru all the phone lists, and when I was done I started all over again.I read the al-anon books. _All_ of them. Really read them, not just skimmed thru. I underlined stuff that applied to me, then I shared at my meets what I had learned. I volunteered to help set up the meets, and take them down.
The more time I spent making _me_ a better person, and making _my_ life better, the lees time I spent thinking about my ex. I'm a slow learner, so it took me awhile, but eventually the obsession went away. I have a new life now, even a new girlfriend who is much healthier than my ex.
One day at a time, one phone call at a time, one _thought_ at a time, is how I did it.
Mike
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Al-anon helps. The steps help. Step one: admitting you are powerless against alcohol.
I have other suggestions, too--once I wrote down all the horrible things an abusive ex had done to me. When I was done and exhausted, I then set the paper on fire and watched all those horrible things burn away. It was quite cathartic!
I have other suggestions, too--once I wrote down all the horrible things an abusive ex had done to me. When I was done and exhausted, I then set the paper on fire and watched all those horrible things burn away. It was quite cathartic!
Originally Posted by queenie88
so how do i let go??? with all the frustration and unanswered questions, the hurt and anger, the fact that i feel jilted and injusticed and disrespected and overlooked and just plain used and discarded...how do you get all past that?
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 390
Whenever my thoughts would wander to him, I'd visualize a large stop sign to help me redirect myself. It actually did help. Also reading al anon literature. They have daily readers - I'd read a few passages and most times I'd read something so 'me' that it would start absorbing me and next thing I know, I'd have forgotten all about him.
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Also you can write him letters, tell him al you feel, how it has been like from your side.. dont read them when you are done, just burn them, do it over and over again... it helps.
Oh I just noticed you were already given this advice... I seem to need to do this again so there we go, it sucks when you feel the other doesn't give a damn but when I DO care about getting MY feelings ACK'D I stop needing other's validation...
When you start doing all the things for yourself, that you expected from ex or anyone else, magic happens
Oh I just noticed you were already given this advice... I seem to need to do this again so there we go, it sucks when you feel the other doesn't give a damn but when I DO care about getting MY feelings ACK'D I stop needing other's validation...
When you start doing all the things for yourself, that you expected from ex or anyone else, magic happens
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Dear Queenie, Deserteyes, Sandra and TC....
Queenie you know I'm in exactly the same boat as you, particularly as my ex has now landed this job and looks a picture of health according to his fb picture - I'm convinced he has stopped drinking. I don't know for sure but the ex I know could never have worked while drinking. Seeing him move on so quickly while I have thousands of questions still going round my head - you know, the usual, 'Why her, why not me? Why couldn't you have done this for me? I was the one who stuck by you through your split with your ex, your depression, prison, you not seeing your kids, you told me you'd never have got through any of it without me, and this is how you repay me - weeks later? After three years together? All these questions consume every waking hour of the day.
I have to say I know my posts are fairly lengthy and fairly repetitive some, nay, a lot of the time, but I must say I know there are some wonderful caring people on this site, reading this right now, who just want people like me and you to come through the other side - just like they have done. So I'm sorry everyone if I can be a bit of a whingebag - I know I am - but it's all part of the healing process. (You should all be thankful you don't work with me!!! Poor Michelle!!!!!
Anyway like you Queenie I'm willing to try anything. So Sandra, DesertEyes, TC and Silkspin I will be following all of your advice. God knows I now have a lot of time on my hands.
I must admit though as I was driving home an hour ago or so, I was wondering how much of this 'missing my ex' malarkey was real. Much of me also misses the place where he lives (It was so lovely and friendly), the people and just the life we had there.
Only occurred to me today, but I think it's true. I mean much as though he and I got on and always laughed, at the end of the day he drank every day, never worked, couldn't face up to responsibility, etc, etc and yes there were sometimes - not often - arguments.
Just a thought but one which will keep me obsessing over the next week or so no doubt lol .....
Queenie you know I'm in exactly the same boat as you, particularly as my ex has now landed this job and looks a picture of health according to his fb picture - I'm convinced he has stopped drinking. I don't know for sure but the ex I know could never have worked while drinking. Seeing him move on so quickly while I have thousands of questions still going round my head - you know, the usual, 'Why her, why not me? Why couldn't you have done this for me? I was the one who stuck by you through your split with your ex, your depression, prison, you not seeing your kids, you told me you'd never have got through any of it without me, and this is how you repay me - weeks later? After three years together? All these questions consume every waking hour of the day.
I have to say I know my posts are fairly lengthy and fairly repetitive some, nay, a lot of the time, but I must say I know there are some wonderful caring people on this site, reading this right now, who just want people like me and you to come through the other side - just like they have done. So I'm sorry everyone if I can be a bit of a whingebag - I know I am - but it's all part of the healing process. (You should all be thankful you don't work with me!!! Poor Michelle!!!!!
Anyway like you Queenie I'm willing to try anything. So Sandra, DesertEyes, TC and Silkspin I will be following all of your advice. God knows I now have a lot of time on my hands.
I must admit though as I was driving home an hour ago or so, I was wondering how much of this 'missing my ex' malarkey was real. Much of me also misses the place where he lives (It was so lovely and friendly), the people and just the life we had there.
Only occurred to me today, but I think it's true. I mean much as though he and I got on and always laughed, at the end of the day he drank every day, never worked, couldn't face up to responsibility, etc, etc and yes there were sometimes - not often - arguments.
Just a thought but one which will keep me obsessing over the next week or so no doubt lol .....
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Hi Queenie. I hope you are doing well today.
Sorry this is so long. I wanted to reply to all of your questions in one post and I just have so much on my mind.
You keep asking "Why?" because you want to know why. That is normal and it is not unhealthy. When you have found enough answers, you will move on to something else. Then, you will go back to asking "Why?" and then move on to something else. When you keep going, this keeps happening. Change happens very slowly unless you are the kind of person who can jump in or jump out feet first. I personally hope none of us ever stops asking "Why?"
The A/A looks for many things from many different people. Those who are seriously addicted (I've personally had several of these folks in my life) keep only Enablers in their lives. Anyone who will not or cannot enable the addiction is simply a nuisance and is therefore discarded or ignored.
Try to always remember that the addiction does not define the person, it affects the person. The addiction is like an entity separate from the person. The addiction dictates the behavior of the person it has "infected." The addiction seeks ONLY to preserve itself. (It helps me to think of it as a parasite that has taken over the A/A body, mind, and soul. Sometimes we see the "REAL" person behind all the sickness and we love that person, and find hope in that small glimpse of the person we know he is).
It takes many people to support addiction, especially in the later stages. Here are some types that I am familiar with. One person is not just one of these types. Each enabler usually serves more than one of these functions. Sometimes the alcoholic/addict has the IDEAL ENABLER, that is, ONE person who fulfills all these needs:
1. Partners-In-Crime: These folks party with the addict/alcoholic. This relationship provides them with a sense of normalcy in what they are doing. It reinforces Denial.
2. Financial Supporters: People who provide funds to Party. Sometimes within their circle, they have a fellow Partier who has money to spare. They will especially cling to that person and do things for that person so that they get free drinks, etc. Or, when one is broke, the other will pay that particular day, and vice versa. Can also be a non-partier, usually wife or parents. They give him cash to continue for many reasons. Often because they feel sorry for him. Often because they are themselves in Denial. They'll even "disguise" the cash as a birthday or Christmas present.
3. Basic Necessities Provider: Usually the wife. Alternatively, the parents or other immediate family. Food, rent money, shelter, car, gasoline. May be an employer, if they are able to hold a job. (A/A might work 40 hours a week, might work 20. Sometimes just enough to get by and still be able to drink/drug at the level he wants to.) Person could also provide childcare/babysitting to continue to enable the A/A's use of substances. Like if his Mom watches the kids while you go to work, while the alcoholic is no where to be found.
4. Agree-ers: People who agree with the A/A's rationalizations, excuses, denial. Agreement can come in many forms. An agreer may state agreement directly, may infer agreement or indirectly agree, may participate in the same activities as the A/A, may say nothing about the problem, may help the A/A take the focus off the addiction and his behavior.
5. Self-Esteem Maintainers: Usually a person(s) who the A/A does something nice for, fixes something for, helps in some way. This re-affirms to the A/A that he really is a good person, despite ALL the HORRIBLE things he does that directily affect his wife (or husband) and children.
6. Scapegoats: Anyone the A/A can blame for any of his behaviors or shortcomings, or negative effects of the addiction. The blame does not always make sense to a "nornal" person. Usually it sounds juvenile. A/A's usually like the kind who act as "saviors" and/or "decision-makers." They want someone to "take over their lives" and make all the decisions, because then, they don't have to take responsibility for ANYTHING and can blame everyone else.
Yeah, this is usually the wife or the husband. Can also be the parent. They know you love them UNCONDITIONALLY, no matter what their behavior. They know you are EMOTIONALLY attached to them and will play with your emotions as long as you keep reacting to his game. He's like a cat who has gotten ahold of a mouse. He will bat you around and play with you as long as you let him, or until you're dead.
Yes, they do this. They have tools in their arsenal that they KNOW will work on you. Pointing the finger at you is him enciting you to react by hurting your feelings. It is him blaming YOU so that he can continue. He really believes these things. He has to, because he is controlled by the addiction. You fall for it every time.
P.S. Sweetheart, you can NEVER make SOMEONE ELSE happy. They have to do that for THEMSELVES.
There is nothing wrong with you. There is nothing you are not doing, other than not taking care of yourself. You are acting in a codependent manner. The healthier alternative for you right now is to start becoming INDEPENDENT. It is an extreme tool you can use to get out of this very unhealthy situation. There are many ways to get out, and they are based on your own wants and needs. You have to start making healthy decisions for yourself.
DO NOT ABANDON YOUR OWN LIFE FOR A MAN. You think this proves how much you love him but it doesn't. It only proves that you are codependent. He will not return the favor. Get your emotions out of it. Build your thinking abilities up, so that they override your hurt feelings.
Investigate and decide what you want for your life. The wants cannot be a person or a love relationship with a person. That cannot come until you are able to be INTERDEPENDENT.
Honey, feelings are not thoughts. He feels what he feels just like you and I feel what we feel. When they drink or use drugs, they stuff their feelings, they numb their feelings, so that they don't feel their own pain. But doing so, numbing the "bad" feelings (like pain from childhood, shame, low self-worth) also numbs his "good" feelings (like love and commitment to wife and children, happiness, joy).
He is not "fooling himself" into thinking that he loves and cares about you. He can only do so much about his feelings for you, because he is so ruled by his addiction. His behaviors are limited, regardless of how he feels about anyone in his life. I know this is really hard to grasp. It's taken me 12 years to figure this out.
This is all the more reason why YOU must always follow your own feelings, your own heart, your own love. Because when you do not act out of love, what do you do to your own feelings of self-worth?
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is pretending to act out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his illness.
You instinctively KNOW when he is lying, when he is hiding things, when he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
It is your job to pay attention to your instincts.
I don't think the A/A is necessarily inherently selfish just because they have this disease. I think the disease MAKES them selfish. Love does not depend on being unselfish. Be careful about attributing the SYMPTOMS of his disease to the actual person. Doing so distracts you from the disease. If you start to identify and define THE PERSON as "selfish," "narcissistic," "mentally ill," "an alcoholic," etc., you start to focus on that, and start to judge the person. This is not healthy for you. Alcoholism is not the person, nor the behavior; it is a disease that controls the person and their behavior.
Blame is only one of the things that support and reinforce the disease.
No, they are not ALL afraid. Others do not tell him because they either do not see it, do not understand it, are uncomfortable pointing it out, or do not care to.
Yes, trying to have a "romantic" relationship with an addict or an alcoholic will literally make you crazy.
FOCUS ON YOU, not the alcoholic. First, breathe. Second, get control of your emotions. Third, detach. Fourth, start working on yourself and what you want out of your own life.
There are many tools to help us do these things. Al-Anon, therapy, psychiatrist, church attendance, college, social services, family involvement, other forms of social support and means to help us achieve our goals.
Sorry this is so long. I wanted to reply to all of your questions in one post and I just have so much on my mind.
You keep asking "Why?" because you want to know why. That is normal and it is not unhealthy. When you have found enough answers, you will move on to something else. Then, you will go back to asking "Why?" and then move on to something else. When you keep going, this keeps happening. Change happens very slowly unless you are the kind of person who can jump in or jump out feet first. I personally hope none of us ever stops asking "Why?"
What do alcoholics/addicts look for in an enabler?
Try to always remember that the addiction does not define the person, it affects the person. The addiction is like an entity separate from the person. The addiction dictates the behavior of the person it has "infected." The addiction seeks ONLY to preserve itself. (It helps me to think of it as a parasite that has taken over the A/A body, mind, and soul. Sometimes we see the "REAL" person behind all the sickness and we love that person, and find hope in that small glimpse of the person we know he is).
It takes many people to support addiction, especially in the later stages. Here are some types that I am familiar with. One person is not just one of these types. Each enabler usually serves more than one of these functions. Sometimes the alcoholic/addict has the IDEAL ENABLER, that is, ONE person who fulfills all these needs:
1. Partners-In-Crime: These folks party with the addict/alcoholic. This relationship provides them with a sense of normalcy in what they are doing. It reinforces Denial.
2. Financial Supporters: People who provide funds to Party. Sometimes within their circle, they have a fellow Partier who has money to spare. They will especially cling to that person and do things for that person so that they get free drinks, etc. Or, when one is broke, the other will pay that particular day, and vice versa. Can also be a non-partier, usually wife or parents. They give him cash to continue for many reasons. Often because they feel sorry for him. Often because they are themselves in Denial. They'll even "disguise" the cash as a birthday or Christmas present.
3. Basic Necessities Provider: Usually the wife. Alternatively, the parents or other immediate family. Food, rent money, shelter, car, gasoline. May be an employer, if they are able to hold a job. (A/A might work 40 hours a week, might work 20. Sometimes just enough to get by and still be able to drink/drug at the level he wants to.) Person could also provide childcare/babysitting to continue to enable the A/A's use of substances. Like if his Mom watches the kids while you go to work, while the alcoholic is no where to be found.
4. Agree-ers: People who agree with the A/A's rationalizations, excuses, denial. Agreement can come in many forms. An agreer may state agreement directly, may infer agreement or indirectly agree, may participate in the same activities as the A/A, may say nothing about the problem, may help the A/A take the focus off the addiction and his behavior.
5. Self-Esteem Maintainers: Usually a person(s) who the A/A does something nice for, fixes something for, helps in some way. This re-affirms to the A/A that he really is a good person, despite ALL the HORRIBLE things he does that directily affect his wife (or husband) and children.
6. Scapegoats: Anyone the A/A can blame for any of his behaviors or shortcomings, or negative effects of the addiction. The blame does not always make sense to a "nornal" person. Usually it sounds juvenile. A/A's usually like the kind who act as "saviors" and/or "decision-makers." They want someone to "take over their lives" and make all the decisions, because then, they don't have to take responsibility for ANYTHING and can blame everyone else.
someone they can walk all over, who won't say anything about their harmful behaviors, who won't care that they're being mistreated, who don't want anything for themselves, who are content just having this shell of a person in their lives?
it just really, really confused me when he would tell me i wasn't doing enough for the relationship, when i was doing everything i could possibly think of to make him happy.
P.S. Sweetheart, you can NEVER make SOMEONE ELSE happy. They have to do that for THEMSELVES.
i moved 3000 miles to be with him! i gave up a life of my own to pursue a life with him. i tried to be there for him emotionally, physically, mentally...then he would say things like this and i'd wonder....what is wrong with me? what am i not doing???
DO NOT ABANDON YOUR OWN LIFE FOR A MAN. You think this proves how much you love him but it doesn't. It only proves that you are codependent. He will not return the favor. Get your emotions out of it. Build your thinking abilities up, so that they override your hurt feelings.
Investigate and decide what you want for your life. The wants cannot be a person or a love relationship with a person. That cannot come until you are able to be INTERDEPENDENT.
another question: you say he may, in fact, love and care about me but is affected by his addiction. is it possible he really thinks he loves me, or is he incapable of even understanding what love is?
He is not "fooling himself" into thinking that he loves and cares about you. He can only do so much about his feelings for you, because he is so ruled by his addiction. His behaviors are limited, regardless of how he feels about anyone in his life. I know this is really hard to grasp. It's taken me 12 years to figure this out.
This is all the more reason why YOU must always follow your own feelings, your own heart, your own love. Because when you do not act out of love, what do you do to your own feelings of self-worth?
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is pretending to act out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his illness.
You instinctively KNOW when he is lying, when he is hiding things, when he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
It is your job to pay attention to your instincts.
if an alcoholic/addict is inherently selfish because the disease is self-serving, how can loving someone else even be possible?
i just don't understand how a person can go through life, having horrible relationships, and yet think that everyone else is to blame.
how do the people around him, his friends and family, coworkers, not bring things up like this?? are they all afraid to tell him the truth? it's like a huge elephant in the room that everyone is avoiding
i felt like i was the only one who thought that something was wrong with that. i felt crazy!!!
so how do i let go??? with all the frustration and unanswered questions, the hurt and anger, the fact that i feel jilted and injusticed and disrespected and overlooked and just plain used and discarded...how do you get all past that?
There are many tools to help us do these things. Al-Anon, therapy, psychiatrist, church attendance, college, social services, family involvement, other forms of social support and means to help us achieve our goals.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Hi Queenie. I hope you are doing well today.
Sorry this is so long. I wanted to reply to all of your questions in one post and I just have so much on my mind.
You keep asking "Why?" because you want to know why. That is normal and it is not unhealthy. When you have found enough answers, you will move on to something else. Then, you will go back to asking "Why?" and then move on to something else. When you keep going, this keeps happening. Change happens very slowly unless you are the kind of person who can jump in or jump out feet first. I personally hope none of us ever stops asking "Why?"
The A/A looks for many things from many different people. Those who are seriously addicted (I've personally had several of these folks in my life) keep only Enablers in their lives. Anyone who will not or cannot enable the addiction is simply a nuisance and is therefore discarded or ignored.
Try to always remember that the addiction does not define the person, it affects the person. The addiction is like an entity separate from the person. The addiction dictates the behavior of the person it has "infected." The addiction seeks ONLY to preserve itself. (It helps me to think of it as a parasite that has taken over the A/A body, mind, and soul. Sometimes we see the "REAL" person behind all the sickness and we love that person, and find hope in that small glimpse of the person we know he is).
It takes many people to support addiction, especially in the later stages. Here are some types that I am familiar with. One person is not just one of these types. Each enabler usually serves more than one of these functions. Sometimes the alcoholic/addict has the IDEAL ENABLER, that is, ONE person who fulfills all these needs:
1. Partners-In-Crime: These folks party with the addict/alcoholic. This relationship provides them with a sense of normalcy in what they are doing. It reinforces Denial.
2. Financial Supporters: People who provide funds to Party. Sometimes within their circle, they have a fellow Partier who has money to spare. They will especially cling to that person and do things for that person so that they get free drinks, etc. Or, when one is broke, the other will pay that particular day, and vice versa. Can also be a non-partier, usually wife or parents. They give him cash to continue for many reasons. Often because they feel sorry for him. Often because they are themselves in Denial. They'll even "disguise" the cash as a birthday or Christmas present.
3. Basic Necessities Provider: Usually the wife. Alternatively, the parents or other immediate family. Food, rent money, shelter, car, gasoline. May be an employer, if they are able to hold a job. (A/A might work 40 hours a week, might work 20. Sometimes just enough to get by and still be able to drink/drug at the level he wants to.) Person could also provide childcare/babysitting to continue to enable the A/A's use of substances. Like if his Mom watches the kids while you go to work, while the alcoholic is no where to be found.
4. Agree-ers: People who agree with the A/A's rationalizations, excuses, denial. Agreement can come in many forms. An agreer may state agreement directly, may infer agreement or indirectly agree, may participate in the same activities as the A/A, may say nothing about the problem, may help the A/A take the focus off the addiction and his behavior.
5. Self-Esteem Maintainers: Usually a person(s) who the A/A does something nice for, fixes something for, helps in some way. This re-affirms to the A/A that he really is a good person, despite ALL the HORRIBLE things he does that directily affect his wife (or husband) and children.
6. Scapegoats: Anyone the A/A can blame for any of his behaviors or shortcomings, or negative effects of the addiction. The blame does not always make sense to a "nornal" person. Usually it sounds juvenile. A/A's usually like the kind who act as "saviors" and/or "decision-makers." They want someone to "take over their lives" and make all the decisions, because then, they don't have to take responsibility for ANYTHING and can blame everyone else.
Yeah, this is usually the wife or the husband. Can also be the parent. They know you love them UNCONDITIONALLY, no matter what their behavior. They know you are EMOTIONALLY attached to them and will play with your emotions as long as you keep reacting to his game. He's like a cat who has gotten ahold of a mouse. He will bat you around and play with you as long as you let him, or until you're dead.
Yes, they do this. They have tools in their arsenal that they KNOW will work on you. Pointing the finger at you is him enciting you to react by hurting your feelings. It is him blaming YOU so that he can continue. He really believes these things. He has to, because he is controlled by the addiction. You fall for it every time.
P.S. Sweetheart, you can NEVER make SOMEONE ELSE happy. They have to do that for THEMSELVES.
There is nothing wrong with you. There is nothing you are not doing, other than not taking care of yourself. You are acting in a codependent manner. The healthier alternative for you right now is to start becoming INDEPENDENT. It is an extreme tool you can use to get out of this very unhealthy situation. There are many ways to get out, and they are based on your own wants and needs. You have to start making healthy decisions for yourself.
DO NOT ABANDON YOUR OWN LIFE FOR A MAN. You think this proves how much you love him but it doesn't. It only proves that you are codependent. He will not return the favor. Get your emotions out of it. Build your thinking abilities up, so that they override your hurt feelings.
Investigate and decide what you want for your life. The wants cannot be a person or a love relationship with a person. That cannot come until you are able to be INTERDEPENDENT.
Honey, feelings are not thoughts. He feels what he feels just like you and I feel what we feel. When they drink or use drugs, they stuff their feelings, they numb their feelings, so that they don't feel their own pain. But doing so, numbing the "bad" feelings (like pain from childhood, shame, low self-worth) also numbs his "good" feelings (like love and commitment to wife and children, happiness, joy).
He is not "fooling himself" into thinking that he loves and cares about you. He can only do so much about his feelings for you, because he is so ruled by his addiction. His behaviors are limited, regardless of how he feels about anyone in his life. I know this is really hard to grasp. It's taken me 12 years to figure this out.
This is all the more reason why YOU must always follow your own feelings, your own heart, your own love. Because when you do not act out of love, what do you do to your own feelings of self-worth?
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is pretending to act out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his illness.
You instinctively KNOW when he is lying, when he is hiding things, when he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
It is your job to pay attention to your instincts.
I don't think the A/A is necessarily inherently selfish just because they have this disease. I think the disease MAKES them selfish. Love does not depend on being unselfish. Be careful about attributing the SYMPTOMS of his disease to the actual person. Doing so distracts you from the disease. If you start to identify and define THE PERSON as "selfish," "narcissistic," "mentally ill," "an alcoholic," etc., you start to focus on that, and start to judge the person. This is not healthy for you. Alcoholism is not the person, nor the behavior; it is a disease that controls the person and their behavior.
Blame is only one of the things that support and reinforce the disease.
No, they are not ALL afraid. Others do not tell him because they either do not see it, do not understand it, are uncomfortable pointing it out, or do not care to.
Yes, trying to have a "romantic" relationship with an addict or an alcoholic will literally make you crazy.
FOCUS ON YOU, not the alcoholic. First, breathe. Second, get control of your emotions. Third, detach. Fourth, start working on yourself and what you want out of your own life.
There are many tools to help us do these things. Al-Anon, therapy, psychiatrist, church attendance, college, social services, family involvement, other forms of social support and means to help us achieve our goals.
Sorry this is so long. I wanted to reply to all of your questions in one post and I just have so much on my mind.
You keep asking "Why?" because you want to know why. That is normal and it is not unhealthy. When you have found enough answers, you will move on to something else. Then, you will go back to asking "Why?" and then move on to something else. When you keep going, this keeps happening. Change happens very slowly unless you are the kind of person who can jump in or jump out feet first. I personally hope none of us ever stops asking "Why?"
The A/A looks for many things from many different people. Those who are seriously addicted (I've personally had several of these folks in my life) keep only Enablers in their lives. Anyone who will not or cannot enable the addiction is simply a nuisance and is therefore discarded or ignored.
Try to always remember that the addiction does not define the person, it affects the person. The addiction is like an entity separate from the person. The addiction dictates the behavior of the person it has "infected." The addiction seeks ONLY to preserve itself. (It helps me to think of it as a parasite that has taken over the A/A body, mind, and soul. Sometimes we see the "REAL" person behind all the sickness and we love that person, and find hope in that small glimpse of the person we know he is).
It takes many people to support addiction, especially in the later stages. Here are some types that I am familiar with. One person is not just one of these types. Each enabler usually serves more than one of these functions. Sometimes the alcoholic/addict has the IDEAL ENABLER, that is, ONE person who fulfills all these needs:
1. Partners-In-Crime: These folks party with the addict/alcoholic. This relationship provides them with a sense of normalcy in what they are doing. It reinforces Denial.
2. Financial Supporters: People who provide funds to Party. Sometimes within their circle, they have a fellow Partier who has money to spare. They will especially cling to that person and do things for that person so that they get free drinks, etc. Or, when one is broke, the other will pay that particular day, and vice versa. Can also be a non-partier, usually wife or parents. They give him cash to continue for many reasons. Often because they feel sorry for him. Often because they are themselves in Denial. They'll even "disguise" the cash as a birthday or Christmas present.
3. Basic Necessities Provider: Usually the wife. Alternatively, the parents or other immediate family. Food, rent money, shelter, car, gasoline. May be an employer, if they are able to hold a job. (A/A might work 40 hours a week, might work 20. Sometimes just enough to get by and still be able to drink/drug at the level he wants to.) Person could also provide childcare/babysitting to continue to enable the A/A's use of substances. Like if his Mom watches the kids while you go to work, while the alcoholic is no where to be found.
4. Agree-ers: People who agree with the A/A's rationalizations, excuses, denial. Agreement can come in many forms. An agreer may state agreement directly, may infer agreement or indirectly agree, may participate in the same activities as the A/A, may say nothing about the problem, may help the A/A take the focus off the addiction and his behavior.
5. Self-Esteem Maintainers: Usually a person(s) who the A/A does something nice for, fixes something for, helps in some way. This re-affirms to the A/A that he really is a good person, despite ALL the HORRIBLE things he does that directily affect his wife (or husband) and children.
6. Scapegoats: Anyone the A/A can blame for any of his behaviors or shortcomings, or negative effects of the addiction. The blame does not always make sense to a "nornal" person. Usually it sounds juvenile. A/A's usually like the kind who act as "saviors" and/or "decision-makers." They want someone to "take over their lives" and make all the decisions, because then, they don't have to take responsibility for ANYTHING and can blame everyone else.
Yeah, this is usually the wife or the husband. Can also be the parent. They know you love them UNCONDITIONALLY, no matter what their behavior. They know you are EMOTIONALLY attached to them and will play with your emotions as long as you keep reacting to his game. He's like a cat who has gotten ahold of a mouse. He will bat you around and play with you as long as you let him, or until you're dead.
Yes, they do this. They have tools in their arsenal that they KNOW will work on you. Pointing the finger at you is him enciting you to react by hurting your feelings. It is him blaming YOU so that he can continue. He really believes these things. He has to, because he is controlled by the addiction. You fall for it every time.
P.S. Sweetheart, you can NEVER make SOMEONE ELSE happy. They have to do that for THEMSELVES.
There is nothing wrong with you. There is nothing you are not doing, other than not taking care of yourself. You are acting in a codependent manner. The healthier alternative for you right now is to start becoming INDEPENDENT. It is an extreme tool you can use to get out of this very unhealthy situation. There are many ways to get out, and they are based on your own wants and needs. You have to start making healthy decisions for yourself.
DO NOT ABANDON YOUR OWN LIFE FOR A MAN. You think this proves how much you love him but it doesn't. It only proves that you are codependent. He will not return the favor. Get your emotions out of it. Build your thinking abilities up, so that they override your hurt feelings.
Investigate and decide what you want for your life. The wants cannot be a person or a love relationship with a person. That cannot come until you are able to be INTERDEPENDENT.
Honey, feelings are not thoughts. He feels what he feels just like you and I feel what we feel. When they drink or use drugs, they stuff their feelings, they numb their feelings, so that they don't feel their own pain. But doing so, numbing the "bad" feelings (like pain from childhood, shame, low self-worth) also numbs his "good" feelings (like love and commitment to wife and children, happiness, joy).
He is not "fooling himself" into thinking that he loves and cares about you. He can only do so much about his feelings for you, because he is so ruled by his addiction. His behaviors are limited, regardless of how he feels about anyone in his life. I know this is really hard to grasp. It's taken me 12 years to figure this out.
This is all the more reason why YOU must always follow your own feelings, your own heart, your own love. Because when you do not act out of love, what do you do to your own feelings of self-worth?
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is pretending to act out of his feelings of love and care for you.
You instinctively KNOW when he is acting out of his illness.
You instinctively KNOW when he is lying, when he is hiding things, when he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
It is your job to pay attention to your instincts.
I don't think the A/A is necessarily inherently selfish just because they have this disease. I think the disease MAKES them selfish. Love does not depend on being unselfish. Be careful about attributing the SYMPTOMS of his disease to the actual person. Doing so distracts you from the disease. If you start to identify and define THE PERSON as "selfish," "narcissistic," "mentally ill," "an alcoholic," etc., you start to focus on that, and start to judge the person. This is not healthy for you. Alcoholism is not the person, nor the behavior; it is a disease that controls the person and their behavior.
Blame is only one of the things that support and reinforce the disease.
No, they are not ALL afraid. Others do not tell him because they either do not see it, do not understand it, are uncomfortable pointing it out, or do not care to.
Yes, trying to have a "romantic" relationship with an addict or an alcoholic will literally make you crazy.
FOCUS ON YOU, not the alcoholic. First, breathe. Second, get control of your emotions. Third, detach. Fourth, start working on yourself and what you want out of your own life.
There are many tools to help us do these things. Al-Anon, therapy, psychiatrist, church attendance, college, social services, family involvement, other forms of social support and means to help us achieve our goals.
oh my, i see so much of myself in your description of the kinds of enablers alcoholics/addicts keep around. i started off as the partner in crime, the agreer, the self esteem maintainer...and then i became the scapegoat. and i can identify many people in xabf's life that fit certain roles, too.
Anyone who will not or cannot enable the addiction is simply a nuisance and is therefore discarded or ignored.
the last time we talked on the phone was a week ago. i broke down and called him over the weekend, but no answer. i haven't heard anything from him since. i guess he only wants me on his own terms, as it's always been in our relationship. part of me is still waiting for him to call.
in other news, i got a copy of codependent no more today. i've also been reading women who love too much. i'm doing what i can to avoid calling, and to avoid obsessing over the fact that he's not calling me back, but it's been tough.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
queenie I am also reading those two
Can I suggest
Amazon.com: Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthough Program to End Negative Behavior...and Feel Great Again (9780452272040): Jeffrey E. Young, Janet S. Klosko, Aaron T. Beck: Books
And "the Language of Letting go" by my idol Melody Beattie?
Can I suggest
Amazon.com: Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthough Program to End Negative Behavior...and Feel Great Again (9780452272040): Jeffrey E. Young, Janet S. Klosko, Aaron T. Beck: Books
And "the Language of Letting go" by my idol Melody Beattie?
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Learn2Live i always love how you break down each of my questions and give an answer. it's really helpful.
oh my, i see so much of myself in your description of the kinds of enablers...and i can identify many people in xabf's life that fit certain roles, too.
You are not alone. I think a lot of us progressed from partners in crime all the way to scapegoat. This progression reflects the progression of the disease.
Anyone who will not or cannot enable the addiction is simply a nuisance and is therefore discarded or ignored.
this is what really troubles me. i find it disturbing that, even though he claimed he loved me and would love me forever, he threw me away. i don't understand how a person is capable of just discarding another person.
this is what really troubles me. i find it disturbing that, even though he claimed he loved me and would love me forever, he threw me away. i don't understand how a person is capable of just discarding another person.
He will choose his addiction over you or anyone else, or anything else, EVERY time. Until he decides he does not want to live that way anymore.
In retrospect, I probably should not have used the word, "discarded." A person cannot be discarded. Perhaps it would be better to look at it as the addict making the choice not to include the non-enabler in his life. Sorry about that.
Queenie, you are not a piece of trash that can be discarded. You are a beautiful, caring, worthy human being.
Queenie, He did not throw you away. He is pursuing what his addiction tells him to pursue. What are you doing?
even though i screwed up, even though he's angry and hurt too, how do you just turn your back on someone you love?
Try not to think of it as "turning your back on someone you love." If you are focusing yourself on making healthy decisions, and getting yourself better, you certainly are not turning your back on ANYONE. You're just taking care of yourself. When you decide to "turn your back on someone" that is VERY painful. Don't turn your back on him, take care of YOU.
the last time we talked on the phone was a week ago. i broke down and called him over the weekend, but no answer. i haven't heard anything from him since.
i guess he only wants me on his own terms
What do YOU want?
part of me is still waiting for him to call.
in other news, i got a copy of codependent no more today. i've also been reading women who love too much.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by queenie88
Learn2Live i always love how you break down each of my questions and give an answer. it's really helpful.
oh my, i see so much of myself in your description of the kinds of enablers alcoholics/addicts keep around. i started off as the partner in crime, the agreer, the self esteem maintainer...and then i became the scapegoat. and i can identify many people in xabf's life that fit certain roles, too.
this is what really troubles me. i find it disturbing that, even though he claimed he loved me and would love me forever, he threw me away. i don't understand how a person is capable of just discarding another person. even though i screwed up, even though he's angry and hurt too, how do you just turn your back on someone you love? but i understand it's the addiction that causes these behaviors...
the last time we talked on the phone was a week ago. i broke down and called him over the weekend, but no answer. i haven't heard anything from him since. i guess he only wants me on his own terms, as it's always been in our relationship. part of me is still waiting for him to call.
in other news, i got a copy of codependent no more today. i've also been reading women who love too much. i'm doing what i can to avoid calling, and to avoid obsessing over the fact that he's not calling me back, but it's been tough.
oh my, i see so much of myself in your description of the kinds of enablers alcoholics/addicts keep around. i started off as the partner in crime, the agreer, the self esteem maintainer...and then i became the scapegoat. and i can identify many people in xabf's life that fit certain roles, too.
this is what really troubles me. i find it disturbing that, even though he claimed he loved me and would love me forever, he threw me away. i don't understand how a person is capable of just discarding another person. even though i screwed up, even though he's angry and hurt too, how do you just turn your back on someone you love? but i understand it's the addiction that causes these behaviors...
the last time we talked on the phone was a week ago. i broke down and called him over the weekend, but no answer. i haven't heard anything from him since. i guess he only wants me on his own terms, as it's always been in our relationship. part of me is still waiting for him to call.
in other news, i got a copy of codependent no more today. i've also been reading women who love too much. i'm doing what i can to avoid calling, and to avoid obsessing over the fact that he's not calling me back, but it's been tough.
God Queenie it scares me to think you are so many thousands of miles away from me and yet our lives have been parallel. It's almost like you and I have been acting out the same scripts at the same time thousands of miles from each other. Scarey!! I think from your posts our relationships even broke up at the same time. Mine was at the end of May - but the actual break up dragged out until the middle of June with his, 'I do want you, I don't want you, I do, I don't, I don't know, give me time and space, etc.'
And now reading your reaction to Learn2Live's post even the relationships were startingly similar. I can claim to be all the peope in Learn2Live's post. I never really thought of myself as the scapegoat, but he very often pointed out I was - ie if he was in a bad mood, he'd take it out on me. I would just take it, let him burn himself out, then when he was ready to apologise, I would accept. And he did. And I would tell him not to worry. Every time he left me, he would come back. Always within two weeks - and more often than not within a couple of days.
And then he'd always say to me he doesn't deserve me and not to worry about if he left me again - 'You know what I'm like, you know I'll always come back, I love you too much and will not find a girl like you again. I know which side my bread is buttered,' etc. To be honest I did stop worrying. Even this last time when he left. Now I know I do bang on about how much I want to hear from him etc, but it's more my self esteem taking a battering along the lines of 'If a drunk can leave me for some woman who's not as smart, attractive or bright who's had four children by at least three different men, then what does that make me?' But then I need to tell myself of his words when he left - 'I honestly feel like I'm not good enough for you!' I disagreed with him. Maybe I should now start agreeing!
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
SClarke, When you said he would come back:
I practically fell out of my chair! That is the same amount of time the last addict in my life is able to go no contact from me. No matter what he is up to (even having affairs with other women, off gambling, going to crack houses, etc), he gets in touch with me one way or another within 2 weeks.
I have to ask, does your Ex do cocaine or crack by chance?
Always within two weeks - and more often than not within a couple of days.
I have to ask, does your Ex do cocaine or crack by chance?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Hi Queenie, I am new here, but Ive been reading for about a year. I can relate to what you are going through. My life for the past nine years has been spent trying to figure out this man, what he said, what he did, justifying his actions, trying to get inside his head. As a recovering alcoholic I can tell you one thing for sure.....we will do anything and say anything to get what we want, and you are just a means to an end. We will lie to you, cheat on you, say anything we need to say to continue doing what we want to do the most...drink. We know what buttons to push to get the reaction we want. We will say we love you when we don't have the slightest idea of what love is. We will say we hate you to pick a fight so we can go out and drink. We will pretend to care about your feelings when we don't even know how to feel. This is the life of an alcoholic. The hole inside of us is never filled by people or love, it is filled by drinking. We don't know any different way to do it. The blackness that threatens to overwhelm us can only be squashed by drinking it away, no matter who loves us or cares about us. It is a lonely, selfish existence, and it is not fun. It is chasing that next drink so we don't have to feel anything, because really, that's why I drank. Numbness, head to toe, don't feel anything.
This is what our loved ones see: You are picking that bottle over me (AGAIN!), it's more important, you don't love me, you are abandoning me again. You don't love our children, we are loosing everything, and yet you continue to self-destruct. This disease is progressive, it NEVER gets better, only continues to get worse. Do you want a side-seat to the show? Front row? Because frankly speaking, the alcoholic will suck the life right out of you, and when you have nothing left to give, they will find someone else to suck the life out of. It's a vicious cycle, and we are left with their dysfunction and blackness in OUR souls. Do you want to laugh again? Do you want to be happy? Do you want peace? These are the questions I ask myself everyday. I have been in recovery for 4 years (tomorrow, God willing) and I feel insane, sober. I feel like a looser because even sober, I have continued with this relationship, because I felt absolutely incapable of letting go. I lived in denial. It was my friend. No...he's not cheating, no, he's not lying, yadayadayada. Everytime his lips moved, he lied. I can understand the disease because I am a RA. I don't have to live with it anymore. I now need to say, what the heck, who cares what he's thinking? Who cares what he's doing? How do I feel? What am I thinking? What can I do today to make my life better?
No contact (day number 5) is the only way for me to stay strong. If I give him one crack to even stick his toe in, he will be pushing the door open with his whole body, and before long, I will be in his muck, AGAIN. I am not that strong, so I prefer to just keep the door closed. God closes doors that no man can open, and God opens doors that no man can close. Stay strong my friend, and take this, like everything else, just one day at a time. You are worth it, life is worth it, and we only get one go around.
This is what our loved ones see: You are picking that bottle over me (AGAIN!), it's more important, you don't love me, you are abandoning me again. You don't love our children, we are loosing everything, and yet you continue to self-destruct. This disease is progressive, it NEVER gets better, only continues to get worse. Do you want a side-seat to the show? Front row? Because frankly speaking, the alcoholic will suck the life right out of you, and when you have nothing left to give, they will find someone else to suck the life out of. It's a vicious cycle, and we are left with their dysfunction and blackness in OUR souls. Do you want to laugh again? Do you want to be happy? Do you want peace? These are the questions I ask myself everyday. I have been in recovery for 4 years (tomorrow, God willing) and I feel insane, sober. I feel like a looser because even sober, I have continued with this relationship, because I felt absolutely incapable of letting go. I lived in denial. It was my friend. No...he's not cheating, no, he's not lying, yadayadayada. Everytime his lips moved, he lied. I can understand the disease because I am a RA. I don't have to live with it anymore. I now need to say, what the heck, who cares what he's thinking? Who cares what he's doing? How do I feel? What am I thinking? What can I do today to make my life better?
No contact (day number 5) is the only way for me to stay strong. If I give him one crack to even stick his toe in, he will be pushing the door open with his whole body, and before long, I will be in his muck, AGAIN. I am not that strong, so I prefer to just keep the door closed. God closes doors that no man can open, and God opens doors that no man can close. Stay strong my friend, and take this, like everything else, just one day at a time. You are worth it, life is worth it, and we only get one go around.
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