Uncertain times...
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Linkmeister,
Just wanted to say that I have seen the second part of this poem before and love it! It is avery humbling and awesome perspective that matches much of what we question and go through on this journey.
Just wanted to say that I have seen the second part of this poem before and love it! It is avery humbling and awesome perspective that matches much of what we question and go through on this journey.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
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The instant gratification, the self-centeredness of the addict personality......
For myself, I trust addicts in recovery more if they are doing service work.....like setting up chairs at meetings, making the coffee, being the secretary, taking calls, rolling out of bed at 3 a.m. because someone is in need of a 12th step intervention............
I trust these addicts more because their giving is NOT in any way a hook to get something back. When an addict is nice to his wife, does the dishes, shows appreciation, plays with the kids, etc.......that's all certainly wonderful for the overall family atmosphere, but in my opinion it does not address the problem of the addict ego.
The addict ego that says "what's in it for ME." ME ME ME. And there is a definite payback for keeping status quo with the codependent wife. Addicts want things cozy and safe.
As long as your RAH is avoiding helping other suffering addicts, through service work with AA, I think his recovery will be on shaky ground. Just my opinion, given what I know about addiction and relapse.
I'm glad things are good. Hope they get even better. Stay alert.
Bluejay
For myself, I trust addicts in recovery more if they are doing service work.....like setting up chairs at meetings, making the coffee, being the secretary, taking calls, rolling out of bed at 3 a.m. because someone is in need of a 12th step intervention............
I trust these addicts more because their giving is NOT in any way a hook to get something back. When an addict is nice to his wife, does the dishes, shows appreciation, plays with the kids, etc.......that's all certainly wonderful for the overall family atmosphere, but in my opinion it does not address the problem of the addict ego.
The addict ego that says "what's in it for ME." ME ME ME. And there is a definite payback for keeping status quo with the codependent wife. Addicts want things cozy and safe.
As long as your RAH is avoiding helping other suffering addicts, through service work with AA, I think his recovery will be on shaky ground. Just my opinion, given what I know about addiction and relapse.
I'm glad things are good. Hope they get even better. Stay alert.
Bluejay
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Hi again Linkmeister,
Now I know what your name is about... anyway, thanks for the link to that article -it was helpful. Just what I have been experiencing- and I already knew this stuff or surmised that this was going on. RAH has a history of good nutritional eating and continues - he has always been into exercise and continues, he has always been reading and practicing some spirituality but bounced around for most of his life and just before his sobriety settled down and joined one religious group, and his fulltime job involves helping others - all of these things we have in common.
The problem for my RAH is that he has often been obsessively involved in one at a time rather than to balance them out. This is where the work is being focused in his sobriety along with developing connections with others. Two years ago I helped him to search for his two grown sons and reconnect with them - he is in contact with one several times a week and the other was frequent in the beginning but his own drinking problem has gotten in the way. The first son also had an alcoholic problem but got sober just as my RAH was locating him and has remained sober for two years. Other connections have been talking to his mother again and visiting her weekly, he is in contact with people from his church weekly, and gives service there. Attendance at meetings has lessened, but he still talks to people when they call. He has tried outreach to his other son particularly about getting sober but no response.
At work he is very sociable which is a huge change for him and noticed by everyone. So, in all, he is working on balance and developing areas that have been dormant. (This has actually been a running discussion between us that he become more balanced. Now he hears me and is trying.)
RAH biggest problem has been dealing with anxiety most of his life which he rarely made any progress. Without drinking he is making small steps of progress right now to manage eventhough he doesn't understand that it is not unusual to experience stress - but most people learn to manage - he has not made the connection yet that he has control over this himself with some practice and learning. (Something he is working on in counseling.)
I know I am talking a lot about what my RAH is doing -but it is good for me to be honest with myself about what is really happening vs what looks good. I am still learning to read between the lines with him and my thoughts and behavior. I guess that is the point I am trying to make. I it is easy to focus on his behavior and not mine. As I mentioned earlier, we have many of the elements of healthy living in common as lifetime practices which is helpful to recall in daily living and stress management. We both have stressful jobs helping others and without the kids to take care of and without the drinking I think my life is going to be a bit easier. (BTW, we also work at the same place -so we can spend 24/7 together - a task that very few people can do.)
Thanks for listening. BTW I actually came on to ask if there are al-anon meetings on line - and how to join in on them - the meetings in my area limited and not easy for my schedule.
Now I know what your name is about... anyway, thanks for the link to that article -it was helpful. Just what I have been experiencing- and I already knew this stuff or surmised that this was going on. RAH has a history of good nutritional eating and continues - he has always been into exercise and continues, he has always been reading and practicing some spirituality but bounced around for most of his life and just before his sobriety settled down and joined one religious group, and his fulltime job involves helping others - all of these things we have in common.
The problem for my RAH is that he has often been obsessively involved in one at a time rather than to balance them out. This is where the work is being focused in his sobriety along with developing connections with others. Two years ago I helped him to search for his two grown sons and reconnect with them - he is in contact with one several times a week and the other was frequent in the beginning but his own drinking problem has gotten in the way. The first son also had an alcoholic problem but got sober just as my RAH was locating him and has remained sober for two years. Other connections have been talking to his mother again and visiting her weekly, he is in contact with people from his church weekly, and gives service there. Attendance at meetings has lessened, but he still talks to people when they call. He has tried outreach to his other son particularly about getting sober but no response.
At work he is very sociable which is a huge change for him and noticed by everyone. So, in all, he is working on balance and developing areas that have been dormant. (This has actually been a running discussion between us that he become more balanced. Now he hears me and is trying.)
RAH biggest problem has been dealing with anxiety most of his life which he rarely made any progress. Without drinking he is making small steps of progress right now to manage eventhough he doesn't understand that it is not unusual to experience stress - but most people learn to manage - he has not made the connection yet that he has control over this himself with some practice and learning. (Something he is working on in counseling.)
I know I am talking a lot about what my RAH is doing -but it is good for me to be honest with myself about what is really happening vs what looks good. I am still learning to read between the lines with him and my thoughts and behavior. I guess that is the point I am trying to make. I it is easy to focus on his behavior and not mine. As I mentioned earlier, we have many of the elements of healthy living in common as lifetime practices which is helpful to recall in daily living and stress management. We both have stressful jobs helping others and without the kids to take care of and without the drinking I think my life is going to be a bit easier. (BTW, we also work at the same place -so we can spend 24/7 together - a task that very few people can do.)
Thanks for listening. BTW I actually came on to ask if there are al-anon meetings on line - and how to join in on them - the meetings in my area limited and not easy for my schedule.
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Hi startingover2,
Nice to hear from you... miss talking with you too. Been very busy... working out the relationship and getting my son moved out, and this week my daughter moved to school. Oh, and I hurt my back inbetween and was laid up for a week. Have a new supervisor at work which took a lot of getting used to - we didn't start off on the right foot, but I have that under control now. And while I was becoming a grandmother, a co-worker who I have been helping work through her spousal issues just gave birth this week.
As you can see we started MC, have been getting along fine, until this past week with all the moves I haven't been in the best of moods, and RAH is still learning how to be supportive (good luck with that right?) Our planned move in date at the end of next month may be postponed while more adjustments are made. I will have to make time to find you here and catch up.
Nice to hear from you... miss talking with you too. Been very busy... working out the relationship and getting my son moved out, and this week my daughter moved to school. Oh, and I hurt my back inbetween and was laid up for a week. Have a new supervisor at work which took a lot of getting used to - we didn't start off on the right foot, but I have that under control now. And while I was becoming a grandmother, a co-worker who I have been helping work through her spousal issues just gave birth this week.
As you can see we started MC, have been getting along fine, until this past week with all the moves I haven't been in the best of moods, and RAH is still learning how to be supportive (good luck with that right?) Our planned move in date at the end of next month may be postponed while more adjustments are made. I will have to make time to find you here and catch up.
Getting better every day!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Clinton Twp, MI
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by Kassie2 
BTW I actually came on to ask if there are al-anon meetings on line - and how to join in on them - the meetings in my area limited and not easy for my schedule.
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More uncertain times than usual... I need to vent... My RAH has issues which are destroying any progress we make in trusting one another to move forward. I promised myself that I would not make the same mistakes and I find myself fighting within. I don't want to dot that anymore. I don't understand how two people can be happy much of the time and out of nowhere my RAH drops a bomb that damages whatever happiness or progress we have made in the relationship.
I am torn between understanding/compassion for his problems, and wanting to just live a normal life.
This sounds so much like life with this disease, and want to honor my committment, but at the same time - how much hurt do I have to endure? Sometimes I think after much reading that the hurt is more about how I see things but does life or marriage really have to be this hard? How do I give myself permission to say it is ok to want less difficulty, and it is ok to complain when things are hard, and it is ok to move forward and it is ok to take baby steps. Not that any one of these actually helps. I am weary and sad.
I am torn between understanding/compassion for his problems, and wanting to just live a normal life.
This sounds so much like life with this disease, and want to honor my committment, but at the same time - how much hurt do I have to endure? Sometimes I think after much reading that the hurt is more about how I see things but does life or marriage really have to be this hard? How do I give myself permission to say it is ok to want less difficulty, and it is ok to complain when things are hard, and it is ok to move forward and it is ok to take baby steps. Not that any one of these actually helps. I am weary and sad.
Getting better every day!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Clinton Twp, MI
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by Kassie2
how much hurt do I have to endure?
Originally Posted by Kassie2
does life or marriage really have to be this hard?
Originally Posted by Kassie2
How do I give myself permission to say it is ok to want less difficulty, and it is ok to complain when things are hard, and it is ok to move forward and it is ok to take baby steps
********************************{Kassie}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
You really are worth it!
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I could really use some support today! My RAH has left me and I don't have anyone to talk to.
Things seemed to be going well, and this is coming out nowhere except his twisted mind and issues. I can be ok with it - I just want someone to talk to.
Things seemed to be going well, and this is coming out nowhere except his twisted mind and issues. I can be ok with it - I just want someone to talk to.
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
He left? Can you give any more details?
Regardless, you still need to do what you (and all of us) should have been doing the whole time: taking care of ourselves.
Take a long hot bath, read a bit, make your favorite food to eat?
Regardless, you still need to do what you (and all of us) should have been doing the whole time: taking care of ourselves.
Take a long hot bath, read a bit, make your favorite food to eat?
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 534
I'm sorry, Kassie. I know it hurts so much. I know it's hard to focus on yourself when you're so worried about your relationship. But I have truly learned that there is no hope for the relationship at all, unless we truly work on ourselves. Maybe the hope of the relationship working out can carry you until a time in the future when you're strong enough in your own recovery to be happy whether it works out or not. This is how I am coping right now. It really is one day at a time. Many hugs to you. I can feel right where you're at right now. 
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Details?.... well it started Wed nite - we had a disagreement that escalated. I think he had a flashback during a minor disagreement. We both took a step back, calmed down had dinner and made up -or so I thought.... when he came to say goodnight he started to repeat the argument from earlier in the evening, which I just dropped. But he then went onto something else etc. and ended up saying he couldn't stand to be bashed all day and night by me and was leaving and thinking about cancelling our move in together.
The next day I called and he was still angry but stated he was seriously considering cancelling our move. So I let it go.
Next day he calls and asks to discuss our move - but then doesn't discuss it and is continuing the old argument - and mentiones something about not being a team player - so I stopped him to point out the fact that he has unilaterally decided to cancel the move w/o any discussion which I don't call team playing. He added that he would stop over after C to pick up his things and return keys. Last I heard that day.
Next day after C he stops by to mention that in my absence at MC (?) he had a few things to say about my behavior and the way I treat him and so did his C. I explained that since the C did not have my input I didn't consider his info valid for us at this point. and wanted to know if he had thought about his behavior lately?
RAH stands up and says he can't move in and proceeds to pack his stuff in the car (in the pouring rain) and yells that he is getting a divorce! I didn't respond and let him go.
Calls later and leaves the message, " Look, we have to resolve this matter before Monday or I will sign a year lease and the move is off for that long."
I am now confused and angry. I waited and then called him to tell him how confused I was - how a minor disagreement turns into three days of anger, walking out on me, cancelling our move unilaterally, divorce, and now threats about resolving things????
Well, he wanted me to hear what the C thought was fair, and if I agreed to it everything would be on, but if not, it would be cancelled. I responded right away saying that since the C did not know what was really going on, that his info isn't relevant for now. I think we need to resolve the issue of how a minor disagreement turned into a divorce.
RAH stuck to his agenda and read the script from the C - I agreed that what he says is normal but not approp for now. RAH says then the move is cancelled and hangs up.
I have no reservations about cancelling the move at this time. RAH is on a month to month lease so that we don't have to live by a time line but he refuses to pay for it now and wants to make it a now or never deal. Again, how much team playing is going on with him? Besides, he knew I was looking to downsize my home b/c I can't afford it myself, is he thinking about me?
I know these are typical recovery A issues/behavior coming out here - but I am tired of it - and don't really want to be alone or give up on him, but I don't know right now that it is best for me to stay. If he would have discussed it with me, and if he would agree to an open time line, I think I could work it out. I just don't think I want another year of waiting for him to grow up before we can have a life together. We have such a short history with one another it doesn't make sense to me. And at my age, I am ready to relax in life - not struggle.:praying
The next day I called and he was still angry but stated he was seriously considering cancelling our move. So I let it go.
Next day he calls and asks to discuss our move - but then doesn't discuss it and is continuing the old argument - and mentiones something about not being a team player - so I stopped him to point out the fact that he has unilaterally decided to cancel the move w/o any discussion which I don't call team playing. He added that he would stop over after C to pick up his things and return keys. Last I heard that day.
Next day after C he stops by to mention that in my absence at MC (?) he had a few things to say about my behavior and the way I treat him and so did his C. I explained that since the C did not have my input I didn't consider his info valid for us at this point. and wanted to know if he had thought about his behavior lately?
RAH stands up and says he can't move in and proceeds to pack his stuff in the car (in the pouring rain) and yells that he is getting a divorce! I didn't respond and let him go.
Calls later and leaves the message, " Look, we have to resolve this matter before Monday or I will sign a year lease and the move is off for that long."
I am now confused and angry. I waited and then called him to tell him how confused I was - how a minor disagreement turns into three days of anger, walking out on me, cancelling our move unilaterally, divorce, and now threats about resolving things????
Well, he wanted me to hear what the C thought was fair, and if I agreed to it everything would be on, but if not, it would be cancelled. I responded right away saying that since the C did not know what was really going on, that his info isn't relevant for now. I think we need to resolve the issue of how a minor disagreement turned into a divorce.
RAH stuck to his agenda and read the script from the C - I agreed that what he says is normal but not approp for now. RAH says then the move is cancelled and hangs up.
I have no reservations about cancelling the move at this time. RAH is on a month to month lease so that we don't have to live by a time line but he refuses to pay for it now and wants to make it a now or never deal. Again, how much team playing is going on with him? Besides, he knew I was looking to downsize my home b/c I can't afford it myself, is he thinking about me?
I know these are typical recovery A issues/behavior coming out here - but I am tired of it - and don't really want to be alone or give up on him, but I don't know right now that it is best for me to stay. If he would have discussed it with me, and if he would agree to an open time line, I think I could work it out. I just don't think I want another year of waiting for him to grow up before we can have a life together. We have such a short history with one another it doesn't make sense to me. And at my age, I am ready to relax in life - not struggle.:praying
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Oh Kass. Im sorry. You may be right...he may be headed for a relapse. Heck he even may sense that himself and is knee jerking things around to cover his tracks.
Not that they are the same at all, but my exah would flip all over the place and make knee jerk reactions and choices that were huge deals. When he and I split the first time, we had gotten into what was a simple arguement and BAM he packs a bag and was gone. It was almost like he was looking for a way out.
You have been so patient. Maybe its time YOU discover what YOU want. Is this really it? I have a feeling he may be this way forever.
((((KASS)))))
Not that they are the same at all, but my exah would flip all over the place and make knee jerk reactions and choices that were huge deals. When he and I split the first time, we had gotten into what was a simple arguement and BAM he packs a bag and was gone. It was almost like he was looking for a way out.
You have been so patient. Maybe its time YOU discover what YOU want. Is this really it? I have a feeling he may be this way forever.
((((KASS)))))
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Well this morning we talked and argued more but eventually got down to the real issue of his anger -how he responded to minor disagreements. I told him that when he stops being angry we will talk.
It has been 5 days of his anger - that is excessive, especially when it started out as minor disagreements over whether or not I shut down my computer or put it on hibernate, and my commenting when he washed his own dishes but not the other dishes in the sink b/c they weren't his (which I just agreed to finish them w/o argument), and then there was the larger issue of his choice to schedule oral surgery on the same day I was needed to take my daughter to college (the date was negotiable for him and made after the college date was made). I didn't like the plan but understood that he didn't want to go with us and accepted the fact w/o any resentment but for some reason he "thought" I was harboring resentment. I love how he assumes what he thinks is right and how he assumes he knows what I am thinking or feeling.
Anyway, off my chest and facing the day. Don't know what I will do - but the move in next month is definitely off. And if he follows up in signing another year's lease at his apt that will mean that we will have been separated longer than married. A fact that bothers me a lot.:day6
It has been 5 days of his anger - that is excessive, especially when it started out as minor disagreements over whether or not I shut down my computer or put it on hibernate, and my commenting when he washed his own dishes but not the other dishes in the sink b/c they weren't his (which I just agreed to finish them w/o argument), and then there was the larger issue of his choice to schedule oral surgery on the same day I was needed to take my daughter to college (the date was negotiable for him and made after the college date was made). I didn't like the plan but understood that he didn't want to go with us and accepted the fact w/o any resentment but for some reason he "thought" I was harboring resentment. I love how he assumes what he thinks is right and how he assumes he knows what I am thinking or feeling.
Anyway, off my chest and facing the day. Don't know what I will do - but the move in next month is definitely off. And if he follows up in signing another year's lease at his apt that will mean that we will have been separated longer than married. A fact that bothers me a lot.:day6
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Update - he calls in the afternoon to see if we can resolve things for the move next month?! ?!?!?!
I told him that I separated myself from my mother b/c of her anger and abuse, I divorced first husband b/c of his anger, and separated from him for his alcohol abuse and anger. I said that I didn't want to live with anger and I didn't want to see him until his anger was under control.
His response was to accuse me of having the anger issues and stated that he can't live with me either so we finally agree on something. I simply added that he could see things anyway he wanted and under my breath I only whispered to myself -I hope that is enough to keep him warm at night.
I half expected a different reply when he called me to work things out. Obviously his anger remains from last Wed night - altho he is now saying that he felt rejected yesterday when I "made" him take his stuff from my house. Da?! he told me for three days that he wasn't moving in and that day told me that he wanted a divorce?!?!!?
Does he not hear himself?!?!?!?
But more seriously, it hurts like hell that after all I put up with and all the hanging in when he asked me to. I guess after one stops the drinking next hurdle is controlling the anger.
It took everything in me to say NO... no more anger in my life!
I told him that I separated myself from my mother b/c of her anger and abuse, I divorced first husband b/c of his anger, and separated from him for his alcohol abuse and anger. I said that I didn't want to live with anger and I didn't want to see him until his anger was under control.
His response was to accuse me of having the anger issues and stated that he can't live with me either so we finally agree on something. I simply added that he could see things anyway he wanted and under my breath I only whispered to myself -I hope that is enough to keep him warm at night.
I half expected a different reply when he called me to work things out. Obviously his anger remains from last Wed night - altho he is now saying that he felt rejected yesterday when I "made" him take his stuff from my house. Da?! he told me for three days that he wasn't moving in and that day told me that he wanted a divorce?!?!!?
Does he not hear himself?!?!?!?
But more seriously, it hurts like hell that after all I put up with and all the hanging in when he asked me to. I guess after one stops the drinking next hurdle is controlling the anger.
It took everything in me to say NO... no more anger in my life!
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
It took everything in me to say NO... no more anger in my life!
Good call, it is your life.
(((Kassie)))
I'm sorry your week has been so dramatic. Do you have an appointment with your C this week?
Peace and hugs
Good call, it is your life.
(((Kassie)))
I'm sorry your week has been so dramatic. Do you have an appointment with your C this week?
Peace and hugs
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How did that "surprise" icon turn up on my post?
I am not happy about any of what is happening in my life right now.! Infact, I am quite sad and hurt.
... and still looking to talk to someone.
I am not happy about any of what is happening in my life right now.! Infact, I am quite sad and hurt.
... and still looking to talk to someone.
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
Hi Kassie,
Keep coming back and posting, we care about you.
I suggest starting a new thread. A thread to express your frustration and ask for guidance. Your current situation is getting buried at the bottom of this thread.
Keep coming back and posting, we care about you.
I suggest starting a new thread. A thread to express your frustration and ask for guidance. Your current situation is getting buried at the bottom of this thread.
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