Won the battle (her drinking), lost the war (my family)?

Old 07-08-2009, 11:06 AM
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Won the battle (her drinking), lost the war (my family)?

Been a good long while since I posted here. My wife is now @ 8 weeks in recovery and seems to be doing very well with sobriety. I don't want to derail anything or make it more difficult than it needs to be for her but I've got a few complaints! It seems as if most of my fears about the program are coming to pass. I say most, because A number 1 was that the drinking wouldn't stop once she had committed herself, and although early on, that has not been the case. What seems to be happening is that we are growing apart. I said to her early in her recovery that my biggest fear is that we would become little more than roommates, which seemed to be happening even before drinking got out of control and eventually she went into the program for. It is becoming more pronounced by the day.

We don't spend much time together anymore. She works late Mondays and Wednesday, has AA and sponsor meetings on Tuesdays and outpatient treatment Thursdays. She really likes her meetings on Saturday and Sunday evenings so she is gone a big chunk of those as well. Typically when she gets home from these activities she is asleep on the couch, literally, within a half hour. We have 3 small children so I'm home with them and can't get out and do my own thing so much of the time I feel like a single dad. Little things like cooking for 1 again seems like makes it seem like we are not really married anymore.

We don't communicate openly anymore. She always bottled up her emotions, but at least back in the day (yea, I know 2 months ago, seems longer!) after a few glasses of wine I could dig into her and get a feel for where her head was at. I can't do that anymore, so I literally don't know what she's thinking about her recovery, our marriage, all of the big things not covered by small talk about the days events.

We lack intimacy like some of the worst times in our marriage. She has suffered bouts of depression for years and has from time to time taken medication like prozac. Anyone that has experience with AD's knows that the sex drive can either slightly diminish or dry up completely. There was a time some years ago that she literally couldn't have sex with me for months on end. We'd get into bed, but at the last minute it would turn off and she just couldn't do it. After she stopped taking the medication she realized what a detriment it was to our marriage but admitted that she didn't appreciate it at the time. She's now been on Paxil since treatment started and it's the same deal. Whenever I make the suggestion, its met with a quick reply that's its out of the question. I asked her yesterday afternoon (before her meeting) how she felt where sex drive was, and she said not bad, its still there (curious because we hadn't made love in over a month). She got home from her meeting and said that she was going to bed. I asked if I could join her, and she made clear as long as there was no hanky panky that was fine. I asked her again what she was feeling sexually, and this time it was a bit different. She said that she had no desire and that's just how it is. I asked if that bothered her and she replied that she can't fake it so it is what it is. I explained that that is problem for me, not that I want her to roll over and have sex right now but that lack of libido was a real problem for our marriage. She just shrugged her shoulders and said she's just not in the mood. That bothered me, but not as much as the smug attitude she had. I read her as, hey, that's your problem buddy, not mine. I feel like she thinks I'm a perv for wanting to make love with my wife!

We are definitely not on the same page with the children. One example, yesterday evening the kids were in the office playing on the computer and they made a mess of the place. I told them that they were not allowed in there until they learned how to clean up after themselves (a couple of days suspension realistically). I got up this morning and they are all in there playing so I kick them out. The wife was not happy because they all pitched a fit, so my question to her was do we let them do what they want because we don't want to hear their whining? She was seriously pissed at me for causing the conflict, especially in the morning when she's trying to get out the door to work. Her personality type is to avoid confrontation, and at times it seems like she lets the kids walk all over her (us).

I feel like we are not even married anymore outside of the joint responsibility of the children. Much of it predates her sobriety, and to be honest predates her decline into alcoholism. At the beginning of her recovery, I suggested it would be a good idea for both of us to see a counselor, outside of the program, to help us deal with the big life changes. About 3 weeks ago I found a counselor I like, and suggested to her that maybe it would be a good idea for her to go see him too. She questioned why she would want to do that. I said that there are issues outside of sobriety that I don't believe she's dealt with, such as the recent loss of her parents, that maybe she would like to talk to someone about. She said that she's done grief counseling at the program and feels real good about where she's at. With apologies to everyone in the programs out there, 8 weeks and you're cured of all of the issues you have been dealing with for years?!?! The attitude was, once again, I'm doing just fine here, sorry to hear about your troubles. To her credit, she did reconsider and made an appointment for a week or two from now. I hope she takes it seriously and doesn't just go to appease me. I just don't know where she is mentally and emotionally (I know I'm not doing great) and can't find my opening to discuss it in any constructive manner.

Bottom line is, I think I've been replaced by the people in her program. She mentioned the other day that her fear of relapse was mostly eased by the fact that she is accountable to the others in the program and she would really let them down if she slipped. While true, and helpful to her to stay sober, what about her accountability to me? What that tells me is that if she drinks again, she would worry more about letting these people down that she’s known for 8 weeks than she would about her husband and children? I simply chose to let that comment stand and not question her on it.

Are these things common for anyone here adapting to a loved one getting into the program? Should I just shut up and step back and accept my "new role"? I don't know if I can do that. Have I already lost her? Any feedback would be appreciated.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:27 AM
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A lot of what you talk about was common for my experience too. Sounds like your wife is very early in recovery (which is for a lifetime, just to put things in perspective) and is getting the support she needs form her support group. I too had many "what about me" thoughts but the reality of her recovery was that my needs were not the priority and it was going to be that way for a while.

I think it's great you found a counselor that you like. Maybe you could each work on your own recoveries and down the road the two of you will grow to be more of a team. But for now individual work might be the most productive?
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:28 AM
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I'm sorry you are struggling 9iron.

As you are married you likely know that most women need to feel emotionally intimate before they want to be physically intimate. Not all women but many. Men don't seem to be wired this way for the most part.

I have no advice other than be honest with her. My ex cheated on me and one of the reasons he stated to someone else was that he was lonely and I should have known that. I woud rather have known what he was thinking prior to what he acted upon.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:03 PM
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Same story here with my husband, he actually moved out and is starting divorce proceedings, not wanting anything to do with myself and our son. Very sad. My heart goes out to you.

I have wondered what the statistics are for staying together after rehab, can't quote you any, but on this board and others, it seems to me, (just MY observation, no facts), that many marriages just don't make it. Probably not what you wanted to hear.

(Hugs)
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Old 07-08-2009, 06:28 PM
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I agree totally on the honesty response, in fact feel that I'm being more honest with her than she is with me. Below is a letter I wrote her to read when she gets home this evening, I'll let you know her response:

Wife- (redacted)

Perhaps we are better off putting things in writing; it seems to me to be the best way we communicate in any depth these days. Let me start off by explaining my frustration last night. I don’t know if you think I was angry that you didn’t want to make love last night. It more than that, along lines of general frustration that some of the fears that I expressed to you at the beginning of this new stage of our lives have taken root. I felt a foreboding that our relationship would turn more into us being roommates rather than lovers or even merely husband and wife. We don’t talk much anymore outside of small talk about the kids, the jobs, how was your meeting (generally speaking) and so forth. I don’t know what you are feeling or thinking most of the time, such as what progress you are making in the program, who you are confiding in and what you feel your successes and failures have been. Are you feeling strong about your recovery or do you have weak moments? When we have disagreements do you discuss it with the group? If so, does it help, or is that not part of the program at all? Maybe I’m not supposed to know all that, I don’t know. Most importantly, I don’t know how you are feeling about where our relationship is at. Are you happy?

You said something interesting to me yesterday that I let pass with more small talk that in hindsight I wish I would have asked for clarification. When speaking of how the meetings help because if you were to slip you would be letting all of those people down, that you feel accountable to them. How about me and the kids? Would you not be letting us down first and foremost? A lot of times I feel like I have been replaced by the groups you now confide in. I’m glad that you are getting the help that you need from them; they are obviously better equipped to help you with your sobriety than I am. It just makes me insecure that my best friend now has a new group of friends that are more important. That was my biggest fear that I expressed to you at New Day that night, and now here it is and there doesn’t appear to be anything I can or should do about it.

As for our lack of intimacy, do you view that as an issue that we would be better off addressing? Not that I have any answers here, I can only go forward based upon what your feelings are. It doesn’t take much research to take an educated guess that Paxil has at least in part decreased your libido, probably substantially. I remember back in Charlotte when you were taking Prozac and it was the same thing. We went months without making love back then and if you recall it was one of the most challenging points in our marriage. If I remember correctly it was only after you stopped taking it you truly realized what it did to your sex drive. I honestly don’t know if you currently see it as a problem or not. I think it might be one of those things that you can’t miss what you don’t miss. I fully realize that I am not the most romantic guy in the world and rarely put rose pedals on the bed. 3 kids will hinder that on its merits alone. That being said, most of the time I even broach the subject it is quickly shot down in a “you’ve got to be kidding me” kind of way. You have not brought it up with me since the kids were with my parents the 2nd week of June. That’s why I was so frustrated last night, more than “I’m not in the mood tonight”. I can live with that. To me it was more of the shrug of the shoulders and “if I’m not into it I’m not into it and I can’t fake it.” I don’t want you to fake anything, but I do want you to remember what that time was like when you were taking Prozac and how after you stopped taking it you saw what it was doing to that aspect of our lives. I really, really don’t want to go down that path again if there is any way to avoid it.

I want to know where we stand in our relationship and the only way I know of how to do that is to share with you some of what I’m thinking. Some (OK, maybe most) of your responses I might not want to hear but need to if we are going to move beyond the roommate status I think we are in right now. Is this what our future is going to be like? Are you content coming home each evening and falling asleep on the couch within an hour of walking in the door? I know I’m not happy with a lot in my life, my job situation being not the least of it. I walked in the door of that counselor (and the 2 failed Al Anon meetings) trying to make heads or tails of what’s going on and I am trying to change some things about myself. This has been far and away the most difficult year of my life and I know I don’t always handle things the right way. For now, I just really want to know if you’re with me and if I’m welcome along with you with your changes.
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Old 07-08-2009, 06:45 PM
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My mother sort of went thru the same thing with aa. She quit 30 yrs ago, and to this day, she believes her aa friends are more important than her own family!
It's a tough road. Your wife is now having to face problems and emotions that she hid in alcohol. It takes lots of AA, lots of alanon for you, and a willingness on BOTH sides to keep the marriage together.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:24 PM
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9iron what an honest letter, I hope you continue seeking al anon or al anon meetings online.

Its strange because I am living something similar but on the other side, my bf has very high libido and I do not feel like that a lot of times... it surely is a tough subject.

Perhaps its not that she disregards your desires, but more on the fact we women seek it when we feel OK and when we know we will enjoy it? I have done it just because someone else wants to and it always makes me feel empty..... also when I was on antidepressants I was totally miserable trying to sort myself out and I also reacted with hostility to any flattery, flirting or whatever from others... I was just not myself at that vulnerable time.

Perhaps as MeHandle suggested in another thread, what about trying a just kissing session? do you think she would be up to it? to me as a woman that is much more attractive when I feel down, some tender kisses, taking the hand of my partner, hugging... that makes me feel much more intimacy with my partner when I feel down and helps me realize my partner is also my friend, that he has stuck with me in good and bad moments, which leads to more appreciation for him thus adding the spark I need to enjoy our times together and wake up my desire

It sure seems a tough road but you keep moving forward, I like your sincerity...I wish I had more answers for you my friend
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Old 07-08-2009, 08:08 PM
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relationships are so hard I was really touched by your letter, I hope you guys have a break through soon
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Old 07-09-2009, 04:22 AM
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This is not a battle for you to win or loose. This is your wifes struggle for sobriety, hopefully for her sake and the kids sake. A sober mother is a gift not to be taken for granted. You're fortunate that your wife appears to be taking her sobriety seriously. As much as you think you're getting screwed, I would have traded places with you in a heartbeat when I was in your shoes, my ex was not at all interested in working on sobriety.

It's hard to realize that no matter how much you want to, you can not fix this for her, you can not coerce with words, writings, or emotions the result you are looking for. It's not easy but it helps if you leave each battle where it belongs, you each have your own battle with yourselves to win first and foremost.
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Old 07-09-2009, 05:04 AM
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9iron, I've posted recently on this very topic. My H has been sober for 7 months, and suffer from 'roommate syndrome' for the better part of a year now. We have a 20 month old, so pregnancy/new baby and his continued drinking contributed.

We are a bit of reverse though; he does want intimacy, but I'm slow to let him back in after many hurts and many times when even if I'd been in the mood it would have been impossible cuz he was drunk or passed out or out partying. Miss Fixit got it right that women have to have the emotional part as well. I need to feel that I can trust him again and it's hard to make yourself feel vulnerable after building a wall of protection.

That said, 8 weeks isn't a lot of time. AH, although he never threw himself into AA, needed essentially to 'detox' even without detox. He was in a fog mentally and still complains of fatigue. Other AA members have told us that this is normal and can take up to a year to get free of that. It's the physical toll.

In our first months of sobriety, I found I didn't really know what to say to him, so found myself saying nothing. I learned through al anon that I did things wrong too (codependent) and learned my part in contributing to the dynamic that brought us to what we'd become. I was learning to change my unhealthy behaviours but was too scared to talk to him for fear of doing the same thing again. But giving ourselves space really helped each of us tackle our own demons. Give her some breathing room; she needs it. Putting pressure I feel, would just make her defensive, because she may feel that you're putting expectations on her to get better before she's ready. My AH says that drinking is like losing a best friend. We can't understand wholly but it's a big chunk of their life gone, and nothing but yourself, ill equipped to handle all that was drunk away previously. It's a pretty tough situation.

Do you go to al anon? One of their slogans is one day at time. Try this. Live each day with her as the day goes, sometimes 10 min at a time if necessary. I found this really helped me as I didn't project too much into what should happen tonight, tomorrow, next week. Work on yourself and your feelings, care for your kids, give her time and space. When you drop all expectations you may be surprised at how you may start getting what you want.
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:04 AM
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Hey 9Iron,
My wife is 3 months out of treatment, and we are doing okay. The beginning was very hard because we both though that all of our problems are now solved as a result of her treatment. We quickly found out that this isn't the case.
I have to re-learn how to communicate with her. I was so used to doing it in a certain way when she was actively using, so I have to communicate like one adult to another. I'm not condemning, but just pointing out that you used wine as a communication tool before. I'm sure you also know that this tool is now out of your toolbox forever so to speak.
I think you have done a good job communicating what you need from your wife. Here's the kicker though. Just because you've communicated it doesn't mean she has to do it. I have found very quickly that once I feel that I've done a good job communicating something to my wife, I stop talking about it. I know that me further talking about it is my way to try to control her answer. Whether it is because of the pills or just truly her lack of desire, she doesn't want to have sex. There could be a GOOD reason out of this. Her desire to stay sober is so strong that she doesn't care about anything else right now. She could need sobriety like you and I need air. But guess what, who cares? How are you doing in your program? You can become better and not let her hurt you as long as you are focusing on yourself.
I can't talk about the fact you have kids, because my wife and I don't have children yet. I do know that adds a lot to your life. I hope there's some way you can leave them with a sitter or a friend while you go to a meeting or a counseling session. You're worth it.
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Old 07-09-2009, 09:22 AM
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I think I'd second what others have said about finding help for yourself so that you can hopefully feel better about you and the feelings/frustrations you have. I'm very much in your situation but it's my husband who's the alcoholic. I really can relate to your statement about feeling like the only times you got to see and hear your wife's thoughts/feelings were when she'd been drinking. The only time I've gotten any kind of genuine emotion from my husband is when he's been drinking and now that he's stopped he's just totally withdrawn. I wish I had advice for you-- I just wanted to tell you I can empathize.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:11 AM
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Thanks for all the advise folks, that's what I like about posting here even though i took a break from it for a while.

I gave her that letter and we spoke about it for a while. I asked very directly if there is anything in there that she feels is unfair or that she would dispute and she said no. To boil it down, I have been replaced by her group, she says as much. She asked if I resent that and I said that hell yea, I resent that. I said that ever since we were married we vowed to make each other the most important people in each others lives. She said that without sobriety she has nothing and it takes time but that's how it has to be. That's tough to argue with, especially if as presented it is either/or scenario of family commitment vs sobriety, but it still hurts to be left behind.
On the libido, she knows that she's definitely not in the mood but it's not a problem in her world because she never thinks about it. She's going to talk to her doctor, but she is aware of the problems of all of the anti-depressants have in this area and is not going to risk going off the medication. This is also tough to argue with, I mean if she needs anti-depressants she needs them, right? I did say that a sexless marriage is not acceptable to me so I hope we can figure something out.

So, the net results are that nothing is likely to change in the short term but I do feel better talking about it. I am not willing to live like this in the long term, but at least I put my frustrations on the table. Am I an ******* if we don't end up together because I demand that we put each other first and am we never have sex? Maybe. She actually asked me if having sex a couple of times a week would really make my life any better! I said a couple of times a week might be getting greedy, but once a week or even two weeks to have some time in the bedroom to reconnect as adults absolutely WOULD make my life a hell of a lot better, especially here at home. Her reaction was that she kind of doubted that, so I think she just doesn't get it (or maybe I don't, you guys and gals weigh in!).

So, that's where I am this morning. Any feedback, as always, would be appreciated.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:48 AM
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I've waited to post on this thread, wanted to see where you were heading.

First of all, the title:

Won the battle (her drinking), lost the war (my family)
That is your first misconception. The 'battle' is not won! It is a reprieve. Your WIFE has a lot of HARD HARD WORK ahead of her, to garner the tools, to learn how TO LIVE SOBER, and she is still in the "Mush" stage in her brain. She is starting to have 'feelings' and 'emotions' surface that she can't even put a label on. And, sad to say, you cannot help her in this. The folks she is working with, who are also in recovery can.

They are the ones who can reassure her that what is going on is 'normal' for her length of recovery.

Drinking is but a 'symptom' of much deeper problems, and it takes the one in recovery time, lots of time, to figure those out. As to her libido or lack there of, it isn't just the anti D's. I don't know of too many folks in recovery that early in their recovery have much libido. Many times it is 'fear.' Not having sex or making love for many years, without booze, many in early recovery don't know how to act.

Your wife is doing good.

I get the feeling that in some ways, deep down, you think she is not drinking now, so everything should be just fine ................................... NOT.

There is a long road ahead for both of you, and I do believe if you tried some Al-Anon meetings they might help YOU.

Also, you might want to read Chapter 8 in the Big Book of AA:

Page 104

It is titled "To The Wives" but works well for husbands too.

I have seen your situation time and time again, with sponsees I have worked with over the years, and although you cannot make her drink, I can tell you that too much pressure will give her the excuse to drink. Not saying it will happen, however, I have seen it happen. (BTW, I do know a little bit about this, I have been sober and clean over 28 years and in Al-Anon over 25 years.)

Recovery is an ongoing life long job. It will be for you also. I will relate one particular couple that I know. Dorothy now has 31 years clean and sober and has Alzheimers. Her hubby Jerry has been in Al-Anon for 33 years. He will gladly share his ES&H to this day about Dorothy's first few years in recovery. His frustration, his not understanding, etc. Yet they both worked at it to the best of their ability. He still is with her, visits her every day at the facility she now has to live at, loves her more today than he did 'back then.'

So relationships can work, however, it takes great PATIENCE and TOLERANCE on both sides. They got help from their individual 'sponsors' through a lot of it, and at about 3 years or so into her recovery, did go to marriage counseling. I have seen just as many couples 'make it' and live good lives, as I have seen not make it, over these many years.

So ........................................ what are you willing to do for YOU to help out in easy some of the 'tension' I am sure your wife is feeling from you?

Remember, the "War" is never really won, ............................ this particular skirmish has been. However, with WORK, LOTS OF WORK on both your parts, there can be a TRUCE for the rest of your lives.

You see in both my recovery from Alcoholism and my recovery from being a Codie, I have:

"A daily reprieve, contingent on My Fit Spiritual Condition."

Hope the above didn't 'muddy' the waters further.

Love and hugs,
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by laurie6781 View Post
Also, you might want to read Chapter 8 in the Big Book of AA
That was going to be my only suggestion as well. That chapter talks specifically about the spouse spending too much time in AA, not connecting at home, and that feeling of betrayal when the spouse relies on her new friends instead of you. The spouse feels inadequate because they seem to be not needed.

That chapter can be read as a soft sell, go easy on the poor alcoholic kind of thing. But if you look really close, there's actually a bunch of really good spiritual directions for the spouse. That might be beneficial here. Follow the directions for YOU.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 9Iron View Post
so I think she just doesn't get it (or maybe I don't, you guys and gals weigh in!).
Couple things I would like to comment on, maybe it will help.

I've learned it can take up to 6 months for a recovering As brain chemistry to return to normal. And a recovering cocaine addicts brain chemistry imbalance can take up to up to two years (that was my experience). This means that seratonin and dopamine levels are so out of whack that when receiving seemingly happy news like a job promotion of your childs straight A report card, the reaction is muted and less than exciting. An overall numbness to feelings, and I have experienced this for myself, it does happen. Add to that the ADs and all bets are off, completely unpredictable return to a balanced brain chemistry. Too often ADs are prescribed to alleviate a temporary situational stress problem and not to treat a true brain chemistry imbalance.

As far as the intimacy goes... Do you really want negotiated gratuitous guilt sex? Or would you rather make love to your wife who wants to make love to you? If your answer is the later, then you will need to learn patience. If you answer is not the later then you will probably get what you are asking for, but at the price of your marriage and long term happiness.

I once tried to negotiate gratuitous sex from my 1st wife, it sucked, wasn't at all satisfying, made me feel like a thief and I'll never do that again. If I'm ever again in a relationship in that much trouble I would bail first.
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Old 07-10-2009, 11:07 AM
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I think that many women do not truly understand the role physical intimacy (with or without emotional intimacy) plays in a man's mental health. I know I didn't used to...but I've had some very heartfelt conversations with the various guys in my social group and now I "get it." It's WAY different from my own instincts about sex. Really counterintuitive.

I also know that when I was on antidepressants, I not only had no sex drive, I had a negative sex drive. Sex was unfulfilling, I couldn't focus, I felt nothing, and any pressure made me retreat into my own mind, roiling with resentment. So regardless of what someone else's mental health "need" was, if I had gone along with it, it would've been like those old stories about staring at the ceiling, thinking about the shopping list. Not good for either of us.

It's a tough situation, 9Iron. I hope the two of you can find your way through it -- I know it can be done if you both have the desire. It may just take more patience. I know....even MORE patience from you (I know what you've already been through) I'm sorry this is so damned hard.
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Old 07-10-2009, 03:37 PM
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ok 9.. I've read your posts, in both forums..and there's sure a sex theme goin' on.

Just like several people have said, sex is very different man to woman, person to person. I know when I was first in recovery, giving of myself that intimately was absolutely out of the question. What I had put myself through in active addiction was horrifying and traumatic. I hated myself. I lived with guilt, shame, and night terrors. Along my recovery path I learned how to care about myself, and eventually to love myself. Also along that path I had to put my recovery before anything and everyone, or I wouldn't have recovered. Selfish? Maybe.. but it saved my life and eventually my marriage.

Along the way had my husband kept going back to bedroom expectations of any sort, I think I would have been highly offended. How could he think that I could be that giving of my love, when I had just put myself through and endured absolute hell, almost to my demise? If he had guilted me into it, and sorry to be so crass, but that would have literally made me then feel like a roommate with a warm place to stick it. It sounds like you guys have MUCH MUCH bigger issues to work on as her recovery SLOWLY progresses than nookie.

This isn't the time, I dare say, to really care about your sex life of all things.. Her recovery may likely lead to a very healthy, well rounded person. Much more capable of giving and receiving love.. it's just too soon for that type of emotional intensity, at least I know it would have been for me.
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Old 07-10-2009, 04:01 PM
  # 19 (permalink)  
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Sorry, Smacked, but if your trying to make comparisons to your situation they apparently are not parallel. Sorry if i take offense to your line:

If he had guilted me into it, and sorry to be so crass, but that would have literally made me then feel like a roommate with a warm place to stick it. It sounds like you guys have MUCH MUCH bigger issues to work on as her recovery SLOWLY progresses than nookie.
I am not trying to guilt anybody into anything, and if I was looking for a "warm place to stick it" I'm pretty sure I could find that. Intimacy between two people that love each other is an important part of a relationship. It creates a connection that adds to the love that is built on everything else that brought us together. I absolutely understand the advise others have given about being patient and letting her have her space and that is good advise. Your attitude that it is about "nookie" tells me that you don't understand me or my family's situation.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:04 PM
  # 20 (permalink)  
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Cool off people. If you're going to talk about sex you better put on a thick skin and be respectful of each other. If you can't then go take a walk around the block and breathe some air.

Next time you write a post here think about it carefuly. Then _erase_ that post and try again, only without the hostile attitude.

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