How Quickly the Tables Can Turn

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Old 07-09-2009, 05:54 PM
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Kitty, I was reading an old chat record btwn me and my xabf the other day, and it reminds me so much of this round and round pointless debate cycle you and your h are engaging in.

I might post it, with comments on "alcoholic brain" and "codie brain". It was a chat where I expressed concern about his drinking. I can clearly point out where he's giving me excuses, justifications, etc. to continue what he wants-which is to keep drinking.

I, on the other hand, am trying to bargain with him. To rationalize. To convince him to try a different way to handle his stress.

OMG, it's the most unproductive dance i've ever engaged in. It made me feel not listened to, and it made him feel controlled.



Originally Posted by KittyTET View Post
Okay, so we've talked twice now. He is on his way home, but he was telling me that he really needed me to be there because it would be really bad for him to be by himself. I reminded him of my reasons for feeling like I cannot be there. He, of course, argued that the Columbus people are not bad for him and are not hurting his recovery efforts. Any time that I pointed out that they drank with him, his only reply was, "It wasn't like that. You just don't understand," yet he would offer no further explanation (because there isn't any).

I explained, very matter-of-factly, that if he truly believes that those people HELP him with his recovery efforts, then he should continue to hang out with them. I told him that I disagree with him strongly enough that I feel that I have to leave because I can't condone his decision. I told him that if he proves me wrong in the future and has a very successful recovery then I will be THRILLED and it will totally change my mind about whether or not he has made the right decision. However, my stance right now is that if he continues to turn to this group of people, and ONLY this group of people, for help and advice about getting through recovery, he will continue to suffer relapse after relapse after relapse. He tried to argue his points again, but I said, "I'm not going to see this your way and you are not going to see it my way. We are going to make each other miserable trying to change each other's minds, and THAT is why we can't live together right now."

Then, later he said, "Okay, I get it. I will stop talking to the people in Columbus...", but then I said, "Don't you dare. Do NOT cut them off just because you think that's what it will take to bring me home. In fact, if you do that I definitely will not come home. I don't want you to always resent me because you gave up a group of people that you considered to be so great. I meant it when I said that if you believe they are what you need, then you need to be with them."

Then, he was like, "Well then what am I supposed to do? I can't be alone right now, Court. Your timing is terrible. I can't just go home to an empty house and just sit with the dogs. I need someone to be with me." I said, "Well, then find somebody to be with you." He asked who and I wanted to yell, "A SPONSOR!!!!", but he's just playing games at this point. He knows what he should be doing and what he should have done when he first got home from rehab. I finally did suggest getting a Sponsor, though, for the millionth time, and he said, "Yeah, like some stranger is just going to come over to my house and hang out with me all night." I said, "Why does it have to be at our house?" He said, "Well, where else would we go?"

I mean, really? Does he really want me to spell out every little detail of what he already knows he should do just so he can dispute it? I wouldn't do that, though. I told him he already knows all these answers.

I have to admit, it is really difficult when he tells me he needs somebody to be with him right now because I WANT to be with him. I just can't. It's more important to me that he figure out what's helpful and what's harmful for him at this point.
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Old 07-09-2009, 05:56 PM
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I would dispute this statement right here...

IMHO it's more important for you to figure out what's helpful and harmful to YOU. Not him. He's an adult. You're not his babysitter. Are you?

Originally Posted by KittyTET View Post
It's more important to me that he figure out what's helpful and what's harmful for him at this point.
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Old 07-09-2009, 05:58 PM
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**{KittyTet}}

Originally Posted by KittyTET View Post
It's strange, but now that he's home it's actually starting to sink in how lonely and hurt I am. Don't worry, I'm not hinting about going back to him. I'm realizing more and more that I have made the right decision. It's just that the pain is starting to set in now.
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Old 07-10-2009, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sandrawg View Post
I would dispute this statement right here...

IMHO it's more important for you to figure out what's helpful and harmful to YOU. Not him. He's an adult. You're not his babysitter. Are you?
Yes, yes. I know. You are right. I'm still trying to grasp the concept of thinking ONLY of my own well being. I've worried about only HIS well being for soooo long. But, you guys may be happy to know that I am leaving this afternoon to spend the weekend at a Lebowski Fest with my brother and possibly another friend. I'm really excited about it, too!
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Old 07-10-2009, 04:21 AM
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A Lebowski Fest!!!! OMG, how fun
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Old 07-10-2009, 05:36 AM
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What on earth is A Lebowski Fest????
This little, old Aussie hasn't a clue, never heard it before.
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Old 07-10-2009, 05:41 AM
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great kitty. enjoy your weekend!
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Old 07-10-2009, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jadmack25 View Post
What on earth is A Lebowski Fest????
This little, old Aussie hasn't a clue, never heard it before.
It is a two-day festival that revolves around the movie "The Big Lebowski". Basically, it's a bunch of movie geeks dressing up like different characters from the movie and doing a lot of bowling and drinking (okay, maybe not the most supportive thing to mention in an AA-related discussion forum, but that's the truth).

Well, a few moments ago my AH called to tell me he may still use his Lebowski Fest tickets. I told him that I would not want him to stay with me and my brother and said that we can't afford for him to book a hotel room, either. He said he was sure someone there would take him in. Then I asked about the dogs and who would watch them, but he just said he'd make sure they were taken care of. I know he'd NEVER leave the dogs for two whole days locked up in the house and I'm also sure there is nobody he can ask to come babysit, so I'm hoping he realizes he's suck and doesn't go.

When he was telling me that he was thinking of going my attitude changed and he asked me why. I said, "Because the thought of you coming to Lebowski Fest and getting trashed around me is upsetting." He yelled, "WHO SAID I WAS GOING TO GET TRASHED?!?!?!" I calmly reminded him that every time he's ever mentioned Lebowski Fest since he began his attempts at recovery he has always said that he probably WOULD drink if he went. That's when he hung up on me. Now I'm afraid he might go and get trashed just out of spite, but right now I don't really give a crap about that. What I care about is my dogs. I'm also going to be really upset if this stupid drama ruins my brother's good time. Ugh.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:02 AM
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hi kitty-

hmm. tough spot. you'll spend the whole weekend wondering if he's going to show up...that's a shame he won't let you have your weekend away without threatening to come also....

well, i guess you could choose to not go. i think that's what i would do. spend the weekend quietly at your father's and stay away from his drama.

good luck whatever you decide.

naive
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by naive View Post
hi kitty-
well, i guess you could choose to not go. i think that's what i would do. spend the weekend quietly at your father's and stay away from his drama.
Nah, f#*$ that! I'm going and I'm going to have a good time. lol! Seriously, I feel like I deserve to be able to blow off a little steam. The thing is, I don't really think he wants to go for the purpose of ruining my good time. He went with my brother to this festival last year and had a BLAST! He and my brother have been planning today's trip since last year. They couldn't wait to go back!

So, when my AH's alcohol "problem" finally became apparent at the beginning of this year, actually the first thing I thought of was what he was going to do about the Lebowski Fest plans. Like I said, it truly is just a big drunk-fest, so even though he was really looking forward to it we both knew it wasn't going to be a good idea for him to go. And, for the record, I wasn't going to go, either. However, when my AH got out of rehab he told me he really wouldn't mind if I went with my brother while he stayed home. At that point, I decided I was going to go but that I wouldn't drink. I haven't drank since my AH went into rehab at the beginning of June. After all the crap I've been through this week, though, I'm not going to lie...I was looking forward to having a few this weekend! I probably still will, whether he shows up or not. I'm really not going to worry too much about seeing him there. If I do, I do. If he's drinking, that's his choice. All I can really do is try to keep the drama to a minimum for my brother's sake. I will be nice and polite if I see my AH there, but that's it. Actually, my AH isn't really the drama type, either. In fact, he may try to avoid me as much as I try to avoid him so that I won't "catch" him drinking.

So, we'll see. I'm really going to try not to worry about it.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:13 AM
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kitty-

from where i'm sitting, it sounds like a recipe for disaster. i hope that's not how it turns out but after all that's just happened this week for you two, a drunk at a drunk fest and you with a few drinks plus all the emotions up on the surface could end up being a rather difficult situation that you could probably do without...

why would a man in recovery go to a drunk fest anyway?

i've had the sentiment also of "why should i leave?" "why should i be the one to change my plans"...but the reality is that the alcoholic is not going to be the adult in a situation and in most cases, it's up to us to get ourself out of harm's way...
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:00 PM
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(hugs) I am sorry you are going through this.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:26 PM
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Kitty I hope you have a good time and get to unwind, and I hope for everyone's sake he stays home with the pups.
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Old 07-11-2009, 12:47 AM
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I am not dropping the package in the mail because I ___. I am not dropping the package in the mail because I _____.
I am not dropping the package in the mail because I ____.
I never wanted to drop the package in the mail.
I still do not want to drop the package in the mail, but this situation is FORCING me to put the package in the mail.

I think, under any other circumsance, this logic would be defined as "me think thou dost protest too much". So, like, if this quote from you below were interpreted logically, using a differnet verb, it would appear according to the dictates of syntax and logic that the individual speaking REALLY (really) REALLY wants to put the package in the mail but wants to make to look like they are being FORCED by some power outside their control to put the frickin' package in the mail. So there's the denial of the desire to put the package in the mail, and there's also some sort of compulsion to make it look like we're being forced to put the package in the mail.

So, bottom line, if you do put the package in the mail, your actions count as least as much or, let's face it, more, than the reason you give for putting the package in the mail. Better, sooner, late than never, etc. It isn't, I've heard recently, about words. We've never changed anyone's mind with our words. It's about actions.

I am not leaving because I no longer support you. I am not leaving because I'm angry or disappointed in your relapse. I am not leaving because I no longer love you. I love you will all my heart. I never wanted to leave you and I still do not want to leave now, but this situation is FORCING me to leave. I have to, for my own sanity.
When you have to leave for your own sanity, you have to leave for your own sanity. No support group, no qaucking, no nothing will interfere with your gut instinct. When you need to leave for your own sanity, that's what you do.

Last edited by covington; 07-11-2009 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 07-13-2009, 03:09 AM
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Hi Kitty,

Do you have an Al-Anon group for yourself?

It sounds as if your husband has gotten himself into a screwed up group. Is it an A.A group or N.A group?

Basically what they were doing with the girl was 12 stepping her which is a good thing. BUT, 12 step work is done by members who have years of sobriety under their belts to avoid the situation which just happened to these people.

Your husband is a newly sober member,very vulnerable still and with lots of triggers still dominating him. It was not good place for him to be and if he had a very sober sponsor to guide him that wouldn't have happened.

If he is really serious about sobering up he has to get away from that group, those people and get a sponsor with sobriety.

In the meantime you need to do what is right for you, absolutely, always. If it takes a separation to help you recharge then that is what it takes. But only you know.

Good luck

Ngaire
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:22 PM
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I am not leaving because I no longer support you. I am not leaving because I'm angry or disappointed in your relapse. I am not leaving because I no longer love you. I love you will all my heart. I never wanted to leave you and I still do not want to leave now, but this situation is FORCING me to leave. I have to, for my own sanity.
I've learned that when I have told my past addicted and/or alcoholic BFs this kind of thing, told them how I feel, told them all the reasons I am taking action, told them how much I love them and want to be with them, I was just looking for their response. I wanted them to tell me that they love me, to tell me that they want to be with me, that they will change. But all it did was make it harder because it made me anticipate the answer, made me dream that he would change, which in turn gave me hope that we could be together and be happy in the future. But it never happened that way and all the talking and crying and sharing and expressing could never change that. It's a ping-pong game that will last forever if you don't stop playing. Act-react-act-react-act-react, it goes on and on forever and ever...

And when you tell them that you're leaving and you don't... each time you do that... they KNOW they have you trapped and that just strengthens their confidence that they can continue doing whatever it is they want without consequence and you will continue to support them. You are not doing him any favors by making threats and then not following through. You gotta' work on setting boundaries instead. This is very specific work (and I'm still working on it too). There's a method that you follow, just Google it.
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
I've learned that when I have told my past addicted and/or alcoholic BFs this kind of thing, told them how I feel, told them all the reasons I am taking action, told them how much I love them and want to be with them, I was just looking for their response. I wanted them to tell me that they love me, to tell me that they want to be with me, that they will change. But all it did was make it harder because it made me anticipate the answer, made me dream that he would change, which in turn gave me hope that we could be together and be happy in the future. But it never happened that way and all the talking and crying and sharing and expressing could never change that. It's a ping-pong game that will last forever if you don't stop playing. Act-react-act-react-act-react, it goes on and on forever and ever...

And when you tell them that you're leaving and you don't... each time you do that... they KNOW they have you trapped and that just strengthens their confidence that they can continue doing whatever it is they want without consequence and you will continue to support them. You are not doing him any favors by making threats and then not following through. You gotta' work on setting boundaries instead. This is very specific work (and I'm still working on it too). There's a method that you follow, just Google it.
What a fantastic post! You are so right. This is what I did with my XABF. Two ultimatums and then leaving but not REALLY leaving because I continued to text him and email him and call him. I thought at the time I wanted him to know why I was leaving. But what I really wanted was for him to tell me he would stop drinking and then I could come home. It didn't work like that! I let myself get hurt for 3 weeks before I realized I wasn't truly taking action. He knew he still had me hooked. He thought I would come home without him admitting his problem. He had told me he would let me know if he could get his sh*t together. He told me he had gone to a "support group". He told me he went to see a therapist. Then one day, he was mad at me for a reaction I gave him to something mean he said. He told me that when I walked out the door, that ended it for him. In that moment I realized that he was playing games with me. He was stringing me along and lying to me. He was trying to beat me down so low, that I would have nothing left and want to come back. So I stopped all contact. It's been 10 days. He has still not contacted me. No emails, no anything! Maybe he was serious. But I've learned that I can't put my life on hold anymore. I can't wait for him to get better. I need to get busy livin'!

Sorry for the rant. That post just hit so close to home for me. Thank you for posting it!
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Old 07-13-2009, 07:32 PM
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my codependent pendulum has swung far away from where you are. I read the "I NEED you here, I can't be alone" and frankly it just grossed me out. 15 years of being someones everything, it just makes me tired now.

I hope you had fun at the festival.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:45 PM
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Yikes. Common theme seems to be if you are still in touch, and still sharing warm fuzzies . . . sorry that's what they used to call them in a church group I was in . . .

each time you do that... they KNOW they have you trapped and that just strengthens their confidence that they can continue doing whatever it is they want without consequence and you will continue to support them. You are not doing him any favors by making threats and then not following through.
Sorry if this seems obvious to everyone else here, but I do totally feel trapped. I have nightmares day after day after day where I'm following XBF through a carnival, and he doesn't even notice I'm there. Sorry I post the things sometimes I have a very hard time understanding myself. Am working on the boundaries, even with communications reduced to once a week, am really working hard on relying on myself, enjoying the peace and quiet, and not expecting emotional action/reaction action/reaction action/reaction because I got so totally used to that dynamic. Thank goodness for peace and quiet.

KittyTet, I am going to read your more recent posts now. Sorry to bump this old thread up, I just wanted to say I hope it's all going OK.
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:06 AM
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Update 7/15/2009

Hi everyone! I'm sorry I've left you guys hanging about the situation, but you wouldn't BELIEVE how much has happened since my last post. I will TRY to summarize:

He did NOT show up to the Lebowski Fest, but he texted me a lot while I was there. Same pattern every time: "I love you. I need you...", but when I wouldn't swoon he'd turn nasty and hateful. He still kept insisting his Columbus pals were NOT enablers. When I got home from the trip on Sunday, I found him completely drunk at the house. I told him I hated to see him that way and he replied, "Well, thanks for not being here." I said, "I CAN'T be here," and I left.

The next day (this past Monday), I got a text at 9:30 AM that said, "I'm going to kill myself when I'm finished typing this. Take care of the dogs...I love you." I didn't cave. I called his mother who had just spoken with him and she also told me not to cave. I did, however, tell his friends, Rob and Patrick, about his text message. They both told me later that they'd been trying to contact him, but he wouldn't answer the phone. Well, I knew that if there was ONE person whose call he would take, it was Kerri's.

I looked her number up on our cell phone bill and ended up having a two-hour long conversation with her. Ladies and gentleman, my husband was not only having an affair (duh), but he is a pathological liar. I had noticed his lying had gotten worse recently, but I was just so focussed on his other issues that I didn't think much of it. However, the things that I found out in that conversation with Kerri BLEW me away! They blew her away, too, because he's been lying to her just as much. For example, the incident that supposedly lead to his relapse when she had the big freak-out and hid under the table and had to be physically removed from the restaurant NEVER HAPPENED. And that's just ONE example.

So, at that point I knew my marriage was over, but there WAS reason to be concerned about him killing himelf because Kerri said he wasn't taking her calls, either. At that point, I called the police. They ended up taking him to an ER and from there he was transferred to a crisis center. I made the decision Monday night to move back into my house for good and start divorce proceedings.

I have spoken with my AH. He called from the crisis center his first night there and that's when I told him I had spoken to Kerri. He barely said anything. I mean, what COULD he say at that point? I did yell at him, though, and told him all the things I found out were lies, but he actually still defended some of them! I believe he is truly mentally ill. I think he actually believes a lot of the lies he tells.

Then, yesterday I find out there was ANOTHER girl he was lying to before he even went into rehab, and that poor girl is now in therapy because of him! He had all but convinced her to leave her husband, and they have two kids!

Anyway, it doesn't even matter. All I care about right now is getting my life back. I had the locks on my doors changed this morning and I have an appointment with a divorce attorney tomorrow afternoon. He checked himself out of the crisis center this morning and has already come by the house to get some clothes, but it went well. I wasn't nice to him by any stretch of the imagination, and I certainly wasn't letting him play any sympathy cards with me, but he was humble and he did say that he realizes that what he's done is unfixable. I told him that when I calm down we ARE going to have to work together to get through this mess and he agreed, but then I made it perfectly clear that I was referring to our financial matters and NOT our marriage. The marriage is over.

It's all just so surreal. I feel kind of numb. Keep in mind, I didn't even fully realize he was an alcoholic until this past April, which was only three months ago!!!! Up until that point, I was a blissfully happily married woman and he was the love of my life! THREE MONTHS AGO! In three months I have had to accept that he's an alcoholic, take measures to educate myself so that I could be as supportive as possible, help him through detox, be there for him through the first relapse, see him through a 21-day stay in rehab, then deal with other icky, guilty, jealous feelings about his Columbus "support group", then find out that he's an adulterous pathological liar, and now I'm kicking him out of the house and starting divorce proceedings!!!!!!!!!! Can you say.....Twilight Zone??!?!?! That's exactly where I feel like I am right now. Nobody can believe all the crap I've been going through.

You know what, though? Everything is going to be okay. I mean, I have to get through the financial mess first and I'm worried to death about what's going to happen to my three dogs, but when it's all said and done I'm going to be MUCH happier without that poison in my life. He is seriously mentally ill and I hope he gets help and gets his life back together, but that's where it ends. I may want the best for him still, but I'm not going to worry about him anymore.
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