question about the stages of cirrhosis
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lexington, Ky USA
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question about the stages of cirrhosis
For a long time (years) I've known my STBXAH is an alcoholic. I know it, he doesn't. Were are amicable, as many of you know. He and I split last August and our two girls live with me. They're 15 and 17 and we have talked in depth about their father's alcohol abuse. He's not a bad person, just drunk all the time. Never physically abusive just eaten alive by his own demons. He's never missed work, (therefore has no problem) uh huh...anyway, my 17 year old came home from staying the night last night and told me that he has bruises on his arms -- "like from his veins--just dark spots" I'd like to know from people who've been down this road ahead of me - should I get the girls ready for his death? I know it's coming, I really feel that he will be dead within five years and they know that his drinking will eventually kill him, but the bruising seems to me a flair that cirrhosis is progressing more quickly than I'd anticipated. At what stage does that happen?
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Here's a good place to start:
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddise.../cirrhosis_ez/
Now as to the bruises ................................. Years ago they used to be seen a lot on the 'street folks' and were called "Wine Sores." (I guess because a lot of the street homeless drank port or Thunderbird wine.)
In reality, is that with large amounts of alcohol consumption, the various "B" vitamins are depleted from the body. A person who continues to drink starts to bruise very easily, and these bruises can open (and many times do) and become sores.
The fact that he now has bruises shows that he is progressing further down the road of alcoholism. Whether he dies from it or not, is up to him.
Here's another good one from Columbia University:
Cirrhosis
As to how much liver damage he now has, only a Dr could tell you. If the damage is not too great, the liver can heal itself (my understanding is it is the only organ in the body that can). They actually do 'live' liver transplants now. The living donor gives up 1/2 of their good liver to the donee. Both halves regrow to full functioning livers.
Sounds like you have a good 'open' relationship with your daughters. It might be best to discuss with them the concept of 'preparing for the worst, but continuing to hoping and praying for the best.'
To the best of my knowledge, the 'time table' is different for each person.
I can tell you this ...................................... I was down to 21% liver function (in sobriety many years at the time) and at 20% they would put me on the transplant list. I never hit 20%, slowly as some of my other health issues were tended to and medications were changed, some function came back. I now live, very healthy too, with a pretty constant liver function of 56%.
So who knows? I don't think even a specialist could tell you.
HOpe the above helps a little.
Love and hugs,
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddise.../cirrhosis_ez/
Now as to the bruises ................................. Years ago they used to be seen a lot on the 'street folks' and were called "Wine Sores." (I guess because a lot of the street homeless drank port or Thunderbird wine.)
In reality, is that with large amounts of alcohol consumption, the various "B" vitamins are depleted from the body. A person who continues to drink starts to bruise very easily, and these bruises can open (and many times do) and become sores.
The fact that he now has bruises shows that he is progressing further down the road of alcoholism. Whether he dies from it or not, is up to him.
Here's another good one from Columbia University:
Cirrhosis
As to how much liver damage he now has, only a Dr could tell you. If the damage is not too great, the liver can heal itself (my understanding is it is the only organ in the body that can). They actually do 'live' liver transplants now. The living donor gives up 1/2 of their good liver to the donee. Both halves regrow to full functioning livers.
Sounds like you have a good 'open' relationship with your daughters. It might be best to discuss with them the concept of 'preparing for the worst, but continuing to hoping and praying for the best.'
To the best of my knowledge, the 'time table' is different for each person.
I can tell you this ...................................... I was down to 21% liver function (in sobriety many years at the time) and at 20% they would put me on the transplant list. I never hit 20%, slowly as some of my other health issues were tended to and medications were changed, some function came back. I now live, very healthy too, with a pretty constant liver function of 56%.
So who knows? I don't think even a specialist could tell you.
HOpe the above helps a little.
Love and hugs,
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My late AH was developing significant health problems for several years before his death. Sadly after decades of alcohol abuse, it only took about 2 years for his memory to fade, to become sickly and confused, his vision was damaged, his muscles became atrophied. He took large doses of over the counter pain medications due to his constant pain. He underwent many medical tests during this time but none of the results came back indicating liver damage. Surprisingly, one day we noticed his skin was starting to turn yellow around his eyes but it turned out to be related to his taking Cymbalta and went away shortly after he stopped taking it. However, it was a red flag for liver problems but his doctor never said anything to him about the potential danger of permanent liver damage.
During the time of all his medical tests ... etc. his stomach began to grow larger even though he was not eating much and he said he had no appetite. My AH felt it was just weight gain due to lack of exercise and again his doctor did not pick up on this symptom. Finally, his stomach began to swell even more and finally noticed his legs were swelling too ... and we realized this was not a normal weight gain. We told his doctor he appeared to have a severe fluid retention and he was put on diuretics and was given some blood tests and a sonogram.
The diagnoses was ascites, or fluid retention due to liver failure ... a very serious condition. How this significant liver damage could have escaped his blood tests earlier is baffling. However, by this time of this diagnoses, due to all his accumulated health problems and chronic pain that he needed medications for ... and his refusal to stop drinking ... his future looked grim since total abstinence and serious modification of diet would be the only thing that could save him.
Once I realized that we could lose my AH within 6 months ... I let our sons, then 15 and 18, know what was happening and the potential outcome. Even though he had several prior years of health problems, none were life threatening until this last diagnoses ... and I wanted my sons to be prepared.
My AH lost about 50 lbs of fluid in about one month because of the diuretics but the fluid loss did not improve his health, just made him more comfortable. A few weeks later, he suddenly passed away and an autopsy indicated cause of death was cirrhosis. His death was still shocking to the 3 of us, but we all knew deep down we were destined to lose him to this horrific addiction. His long tragic journey came to an end ... and it tore my heart apart knowing my sons would no longer have a father in their lives.
My youngest son graduated from high school a few weeks ago ... and there was a huge void knowing his dad was not there to share this milestone with him. This same son has made a commitment to never drink as a testimony to his father's untimely death due to poor choices he made ... he didn't want his father's death to have been in vain. I truly believe his father would have been so very proud that his son had learned a valuable lesson from his tragic mistakes and had chosen not to repeat them.
Sometimes the most important lessons children learn from their parents ... is what not to do.
During the time of all his medical tests ... etc. his stomach began to grow larger even though he was not eating much and he said he had no appetite. My AH felt it was just weight gain due to lack of exercise and again his doctor did not pick up on this symptom. Finally, his stomach began to swell even more and finally noticed his legs were swelling too ... and we realized this was not a normal weight gain. We told his doctor he appeared to have a severe fluid retention and he was put on diuretics and was given some blood tests and a sonogram.
The diagnoses was ascites, or fluid retention due to liver failure ... a very serious condition. How this significant liver damage could have escaped his blood tests earlier is baffling. However, by this time of this diagnoses, due to all his accumulated health problems and chronic pain that he needed medications for ... and his refusal to stop drinking ... his future looked grim since total abstinence and serious modification of diet would be the only thing that could save him.
Once I realized that we could lose my AH within 6 months ... I let our sons, then 15 and 18, know what was happening and the potential outcome. Even though he had several prior years of health problems, none were life threatening until this last diagnoses ... and I wanted my sons to be prepared.
My AH lost about 50 lbs of fluid in about one month because of the diuretics but the fluid loss did not improve his health, just made him more comfortable. A few weeks later, he suddenly passed away and an autopsy indicated cause of death was cirrhosis. His death was still shocking to the 3 of us, but we all knew deep down we were destined to lose him to this horrific addiction. His long tragic journey came to an end ... and it tore my heart apart knowing my sons would no longer have a father in their lives.
My youngest son graduated from high school a few weeks ago ... and there was a huge void knowing his dad was not there to share this milestone with him. This same son has made a commitment to never drink as a testimony to his father's untimely death due to poor choices he made ... he didn't want his father's death to have been in vain. I truly believe his father would have been so very proud that his son had learned a valuable lesson from his tragic mistakes and had chosen not to repeat them.
Sometimes the most important lessons children learn from their parents ... is what not to do.
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another question....
What about his family? I'm still close to his sister and love his mom and dad to pieces. His folks are in total denial, but his sister understands the situation well. We live away from them and they only see him about once a year. Should I butt in and tell his sister that things don't look good? I mean, I don't even know myself if he's as bad as I think, but I'd HATE to see his family blind-sided if something drastic were to happen. Part of me wants to step away but if I were in their shoes I'd want to be prepared. UUUGGGHHHHH......
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If I'm understanding correctly he has been diagnosed with cirrhosis, right?
From what I have been educated about cirrhosis, is that it is generally irreversable and fatal, that it is when a person's liver is beyond that healing capacity. Obvoiusly I'm not a doctor, i would encourage you to talk to one. Or maybe look on reputable websites for medical info, like MedlinePlus.
Sorry that you're going through this, it must be very difficult.
From what I have been educated about cirrhosis, is that it is generally irreversable and fatal, that it is when a person's liver is beyond that healing capacity. Obvoiusly I'm not a doctor, i would encourage you to talk to one. Or maybe look on reputable websites for medical info, like MedlinePlus.
Sorry that you're going through this, it must be very difficult.
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Location: Lexington, Ky USA
Posts: 44
no not at all
no diagnosis--- are you kidding? He doesn't have a problem, he's fine. Just the fact that he's lost about 40 pounds in a year, he pees dark, he has bruises now, he drinks about a twelve pack or more a day (but it's only beer of course so it's OK) he hardly eats enough to keep a bird alive, his blood pressure was taken at the dentist last week and registered 190/140 but no he's FIIINE!!! It's all in my head, I've looked for a reason to leave him for twenty years, and finally found one. blah blah blah.... so no, flutter, this is all my own feelings, no doctor has seen that man in years. He hasn't been told he's not OK, therefore he is... yeah, we all don't live in that world anymore....
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As to saying anything to his family, why is it your responsibility to let them know anything, including you suspicions about possible illness? If they see him, they can draw their own conclusions.
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It's not my responsibility as in burden, but I love these people and have been their daughter for over twenty years. In that aspect, yes, I feel a responsibility to prepare the people I love for a devastating blow. My situation is unlike many here, I have no fear of safety, I have no "hate" per se for my X, I do for alcohol and for what it has done to him, but not the person. I still have a bond with my daughters' grandparents and am trying to keep that bond strong. So, yes, I see it as my responsibility to prepare them for the worst. If you knew the train was going to crash at a certain mile marker, would you not warn innocent people to avoid that crossing? I see talking to them and preparing them as an act of kindness, not a burden.
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I don't usually post much here anymore, but I check in and see how everyone's doing, and I really feel I must respond to your post.
My AH is exactly like your stbxah, only mine was diagnosed 3 years ago by liver biopsy as having alcoholic liver disease, fibrosis, but not yet cirrhosis. Liver dr. said if he continued drinking (he drinks only beer too LOL), it would quickly progress to cirrhosis. Our GP also told him if he continues to drink he would be dead in 3-6 mos. and it won't be pretty. Fast forward 3 years. He's still alive and still drinking! Sure, he had some brief stints at sobriety (each lasting about 3 mos.), but when he went back to drinking, he drank even worse than before. Last year he almost died, he had alcohol induced rhabdomyolysis (same symptoms as yours, dark urine, lost about 40 lbs in 2 mos, bruises all over him, platelets low, bilirubin high, eyes yellow, etc.), almost needed dialysis and if I hadn't gotten him to the hospital when I did, he would have been dead in another couple of days. Then of course came the "gee, I know I really can't drink, thanks for being there and saving my life". Yeah, right. To thank me, what is he still doing? Drinking more than ever! Two mos. ago, he got a liver ct scan. Guess what? His liver improved! Yes, actually improved! Our regular gp won't even do bloodwork on him anymore, said he's probably going to outlive us all, he keeps "bouncing back". You see, that's what they do, bounce back to create more havoc and chaos on anyone who will let them. And in AH's mind, he doesn't see he has a problem either, he just likes to have a couple of beers, and is still planning on being an alcoholism counselor! Went to his class drunk the other night and was shocked when instructor asked him to leave. Next morning he tells me he doesn't understand why, he didn't do anything wrong, just went to class drunk, what was the problem with that? Talk about denial and rationalization and stuff!
Do yourself a favor, don't even worry about your stbah, or try to explain anything to your girls. He'll be around alot longer than you think, trust me on that one. Why add to your daughters' worries. You and your girls are in my prayers.
He also developed diabetes about 6 mos. ago as a result of his drinking. Many complications, still alive and kicking though. An act of kindness, in my opinion, would be to not tell them and cause needless worry for any of them.
My AH is exactly like your stbxah, only mine was diagnosed 3 years ago by liver biopsy as having alcoholic liver disease, fibrosis, but not yet cirrhosis. Liver dr. said if he continued drinking (he drinks only beer too LOL), it would quickly progress to cirrhosis. Our GP also told him if he continues to drink he would be dead in 3-6 mos. and it won't be pretty. Fast forward 3 years. He's still alive and still drinking! Sure, he had some brief stints at sobriety (each lasting about 3 mos.), but when he went back to drinking, he drank even worse than before. Last year he almost died, he had alcohol induced rhabdomyolysis (same symptoms as yours, dark urine, lost about 40 lbs in 2 mos, bruises all over him, platelets low, bilirubin high, eyes yellow, etc.), almost needed dialysis and if I hadn't gotten him to the hospital when I did, he would have been dead in another couple of days. Then of course came the "gee, I know I really can't drink, thanks for being there and saving my life". Yeah, right. To thank me, what is he still doing? Drinking more than ever! Two mos. ago, he got a liver ct scan. Guess what? His liver improved! Yes, actually improved! Our regular gp won't even do bloodwork on him anymore, said he's probably going to outlive us all, he keeps "bouncing back". You see, that's what they do, bounce back to create more havoc and chaos on anyone who will let them. And in AH's mind, he doesn't see he has a problem either, he just likes to have a couple of beers, and is still planning on being an alcoholism counselor! Went to his class drunk the other night and was shocked when instructor asked him to leave. Next morning he tells me he doesn't understand why, he didn't do anything wrong, just went to class drunk, what was the problem with that? Talk about denial and rationalization and stuff!
Do yourself a favor, don't even worry about your stbah, or try to explain anything to your girls. He'll be around alot longer than you think, trust me on that one. Why add to your daughters' worries. You and your girls are in my prayers.
He also developed diabetes about 6 mos. ago as a result of his drinking. Many complications, still alive and kicking though. An act of kindness, in my opinion, would be to not tell them and cause needless worry for any of them.
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Originally Posted by kittycat1164 
What about his family? I'm still close to his sister and love his mom and dad to pieces. His folks are in total denial, but his sister understands the situation well. We live away from them and they only see him about once a year. Should I butt in and tell his sister that things don't look good? I mean, I don't even know myself if he's as bad as I think, but I'd HATE to see his family blind-sided if something drastic were to happen. Part of me wants to step away but if I were in their shoes I'd want to be prepared. UUUGGGHHHHH......
From my own experience of being the sister of someone who actualy did die from cirrhosis I would have to say although I knew deep down what was coming I didn't want to hear it from anyone but a doctor or my brother himself. I knew he was alcoholic and I think I dealt with that OK for a while before he died, but the reason I dealt with it was because I was learning to detach from him and let him live his own life while I lived mine.
My parents were in complete denial too, and that only changed once there ws a post mortem exam and the cause of death was changed from heart attack to cirrhosis and alcoholic heart disease.
I'd leave them be if I was put in that position, perhaps I might reconsider if it was an official diagnosis though. Like you say, you've been their daughter for years, carry on being that and support them when the time comes if need be, if they're in denial they aren't about to take your word for anything regarding his alcoholism anyway.
just my opinion, and maybe a different point of view for you.
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Queenteree and LucyA you've put a perspective on it that I hadn't thought of and I thank you. I think I will let things be as they are. I don't know how things will turn out, therefore why cause worry and trouble when there may be no need. Thank you again for your points of view I appreciate them greatly! :ghug
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I can really relate to this thread. My story is similar to queenteree's story. ABF has diagnosed liver disease, biopsy done years ago, drinking continues and I have to assume, so does the liver damage.
I did feel the need to tell his family, I just kept picturing the funeral, all eyes on me saying why didn't we know. So now they know. Nothing really changed from any side of the picture, but at least I feel like some of the burden of the "secret" was lifted off of me.
As far as your own kids go, I'm sure they know, somewhere inside of them. Since all you have really is speculation, theres nothing much you CAN tell them. I would be honest with them, if they ask, about your thoughts on the matter, but they really are only your thoughts, right?
I did feel the need to tell his family, I just kept picturing the funeral, all eyes on me saying why didn't we know. So now they know. Nothing really changed from any side of the picture, but at least I feel like some of the burden of the "secret" was lifted off of me.
As far as your own kids go, I'm sure they know, somewhere inside of them. Since all you have really is speculation, theres nothing much you CAN tell them. I would be honest with them, if they ask, about your thoughts on the matter, but they really are only your thoughts, right?
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