Dangerous Recovery Term
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Join Date: May 2009
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Dangerous Recovery Term
Rather than hijack the other discussion we are having today, about recovering or not recovering in AA, I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the term "Take what you need and leave the rest." And this could apply to any recovery program, not just AA.
In what other program, process, or subject do you get to do this and still master the concept? When you are learning a foreign language, do they say "Don't worry about learning the predicate forms if you they don't resonate with you." Don't worry about the theory of relativity while building that rocket. If you want to follow the ten commandments but "Thou shalt not kill." isn't one you care to take with you, don't worry about it.
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years. They can not drink, drug, overeat, blah, or blah and still keep the same behaviors going because they were told to leave what didn't resonate. Giving up the whatever because it will kill you is one thing, but giving up the behaviors of fantabulous me? No way!
So my "thinks he is recovering not drinking" AH can date, divorce me, see his son whenever he wants which is not very much, not offer to help with this overwhelming piece of property he owns half of, etc etc because he chooses NOT to heed the warnings of no relationships in the first year, no big life decisions in the first year, making ammends to the people that loved you at your worst, etc etc.
And while I am on my soapbox, I also don't like the "stay away from people and places that will trigger" line. My husband had trouble coping with life. Amen. When life became three teenagers, very busy schedules, hormones, and all the angst of raising entitled generation me'ers in this crazy internet, cell phone, crib mtv watching, etc. he zoned out in front of the tv with a glass in his hand, and I handled the schedules and the parenting and the problems.
Now, he can't come back to his family EVER because those were the things he drank to get away from. Now, I understand that for the first year or so, and agree with the separation because I don't like the ups and downs of it anyway....but using this as an excuse to stay in your own little selfish world doing what you want when you want??? I think that they were referring to bars, drinking buds, etc. But since you can take what you want (the way you want to understand it) and leave the rest...well then, you can be damn proud of yourself that you are sticking to the guidelines of the program!!!
Just venting, and questioning, no need to kick me back to my side of the street. I REALLY don't understand a program that is so ala carte.
In what other program, process, or subject do you get to do this and still master the concept? When you are learning a foreign language, do they say "Don't worry about learning the predicate forms if you they don't resonate with you." Don't worry about the theory of relativity while building that rocket. If you want to follow the ten commandments but "Thou shalt not kill." isn't one you care to take with you, don't worry about it.
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years. They can not drink, drug, overeat, blah, or blah and still keep the same behaviors going because they were told to leave what didn't resonate. Giving up the whatever because it will kill you is one thing, but giving up the behaviors of fantabulous me? No way!
So my "thinks he is recovering not drinking" AH can date, divorce me, see his son whenever he wants which is not very much, not offer to help with this overwhelming piece of property he owns half of, etc etc because he chooses NOT to heed the warnings of no relationships in the first year, no big life decisions in the first year, making ammends to the people that loved you at your worst, etc etc.
And while I am on my soapbox, I also don't like the "stay away from people and places that will trigger" line. My husband had trouble coping with life. Amen. When life became three teenagers, very busy schedules, hormones, and all the angst of raising entitled generation me'ers in this crazy internet, cell phone, crib mtv watching, etc. he zoned out in front of the tv with a glass in his hand, and I handled the schedules and the parenting and the problems.
Now, he can't come back to his family EVER because those were the things he drank to get away from. Now, I understand that for the first year or so, and agree with the separation because I don't like the ups and downs of it anyway....but using this as an excuse to stay in your own little selfish world doing what you want when you want??? I think that they were referring to bars, drinking buds, etc. But since you can take what you want (the way you want to understand it) and leave the rest...well then, you can be damn proud of yourself that you are sticking to the guidelines of the program!!!
Just venting, and questioning, no need to kick me back to my side of the street. I REALLY don't understand a program that is so ala carte.
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It's because the responsibility belongs to the individual, not the program. There are people who recover and lead beautiful lives without any program. There are people who spend years in AA and never 'get it.' Is it AA's problem?
I know people who've spent 8 years in college and are still dumber than a box of rocks. Is that the college's fault?
You can lead a horse to water...............etc.
L
I know people who've spent 8 years in college and are still dumber than a box of rocks. Is that the college's fault?
You can lead a horse to water...............etc.
L
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
First, that term is meant to apply to what you hear said by other members rather then what you read in "The Big Book"
Second, try to apply it to yourself rather then try and understand him. "On That Path Lies Madness"
To be uncharistically blunt
what I was told is if I am "working someone else's program I am not working my own. If I was REALLY working my own program I wouldn't have time to work someone else's as I would be so busy trying to address my OWN character defects"
I found that is as applicable to my co'ing tendencies as my AA program, if not more so
To bring it all into perspective, you can either "take" this post or "leave it" as it applies to YOUR OWN program of recovery.
Make sense?
Second, try to apply it to yourself rather then try and understand him. "On That Path Lies Madness"
To be uncharistically blunt
what I was told is if I am "working someone else's program I am not working my own. If I was REALLY working my own program I wouldn't have time to work someone else's as I would be so busy trying to address my OWN character defects"I found that is as applicable to my co'ing tendencies as my AA program, if not more so
To bring it all into perspective, you can either "take" this post or "leave it" as it applies to YOUR OWN program of recovery.
Make sense?
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,049
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I
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years.
Is this going to be another repeat of the last thread?
I'm done.
I
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years.
Is this going to be another repeat of the last thread?
I'm done.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 75
Now, he can't come back to his family EVER because those were the things he drank to get away from. Now, I understand that for the first year or so, and agree with the separation because I don't like the ups and downs of it anyway....but using this as an excuse to stay in your own little selfish world doing what you want when you want???
Do I want to wait for him to become the man I want him to be?
Whew, I might be in for a long long wait. Part of me feels like a tiny part of me is standing before the water, and I'm the horse, I'm waiting to drink from the spring myself. Lol.
& yeah, as a result of the other thread I went and looked this up :-)
Lear:
No, I will weep no more. In such a night
To shut me out? Pour on; I will endure.
In such a night as this? O Regan, Goneril!
Your old kind father, whose frank heart gave all—
O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of that.
King Lear Act 3, scene 4, 17–22
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
They way I look at the "take what you need and leave the rest" philosophy is that AA and other 12 step programs were designed to patiently chisel away at denial and gradually promote growth. If they drive or scare people away who aren't yet open to ALL the necessary components, they will not succeed as a program.
Therefore, they attempt to present a core set of "suggestions" and encourage folks to "keep coming back" with the idea that eventually someone who truly wants growth will see the benefit of those "suggestions" and incorporate them.
This is a process, and the pathway and timing is unique to each individual, but the actual steps or suggestions are not changing, just the individuals openness to them.
Plenty of people get stuck along the way at various stages. But who's to say if they will someday get unstuck and make more progress? I don't have to own their recovery timeline or pathway, and I also can get out of the way and distance myself so I'm not affected by their actions or decisions.
That's how I interpret it.
CLMI
Therefore, they attempt to present a core set of "suggestions" and encourage folks to "keep coming back" with the idea that eventually someone who truly wants growth will see the benefit of those "suggestions" and incorporate them.
This is a process, and the pathway and timing is unique to each individual, but the actual steps or suggestions are not changing, just the individuals openness to them.
Plenty of people get stuck along the way at various stages. But who's to say if they will someday get unstuck and make more progress? I don't have to own their recovery timeline or pathway, and I also can get out of the way and distance myself so I'm not affected by their actions or decisions.
That's how I interpret it.
CLMI
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Like Ago said, I only apply "take what I can use and leave the rest" to other people's advice and opinions.
Alanon is exactly like learning a foreign language because there are the twelve steps. They do not change, they do not bend, you cannot pick and choose steps and honestly say to yourself that you are working the program. The steps are like grammar.
But each person learning a foreign language has their own accent, even as they strive to imitate the native speaker. And each student of a foreign language has their own tips and tricks for studying. If someone told me when I was learning French - oh just write the vocabulary words in huge font - and I thought- well that doesn't work for me but someone else's suggestion of drawing pictures of vocabulary words - that works well for me. So I'll take the drawing pictures idea but abandon the giant font idea. I can use the pictures but leave the font. I am still learning the same vocab list.
It doesn't change the rules of learning French. Still have to find my own way to memorize and remember conjugations - but in a group forum one person's way of studying might not work for me.
The point has always been to me: DON'T STOP studying French because you disagree with some other student. Don't take personally what other people say and use it as an excuse to stop. How many times I have heard people complain or disagree about something said at an AlAnon meeting. They harp and harp on it and decide AlAnon is not for them.
And yet whatever the person said has nothing to do with AlAnon not being an excellent program of recovery from codependence. Like someone can dump all over the French language - or CLAIM to be an expert but speak it really poorly - it shouldn't stop ME from learning French and speaking it if it is what I want to do.
Alanon helped me let go of my attachment, opinions, judgments, and frustrations with my alcoholic loved lones. Whether they are drinking or not.
It's not my business why, how or if they are recovering the way I think alcoholics should recover appropriately.
Working the Alanon program cured me from my desperate need to be right and prove others inadequate and wrong. It gave me the tools to put down the magnifying glass and look in the mirror.
The "tools" I speak of are like French grammar. They don't change, and I had to learn how to use them. I took what I could use from fellow AlAnoners that helped me learn and I left behind advice or opinions that messed with my ability to use these tools. The tools don't change.
peace,
b
Alanon is exactly like learning a foreign language because there are the twelve steps. They do not change, they do not bend, you cannot pick and choose steps and honestly say to yourself that you are working the program. The steps are like grammar.
But each person learning a foreign language has their own accent, even as they strive to imitate the native speaker. And each student of a foreign language has their own tips and tricks for studying. If someone told me when I was learning French - oh just write the vocabulary words in huge font - and I thought- well that doesn't work for me but someone else's suggestion of drawing pictures of vocabulary words - that works well for me. So I'll take the drawing pictures idea but abandon the giant font idea. I can use the pictures but leave the font. I am still learning the same vocab list.
It doesn't change the rules of learning French. Still have to find my own way to memorize and remember conjugations - but in a group forum one person's way of studying might not work for me.
The point has always been to me: DON'T STOP studying French because you disagree with some other student. Don't take personally what other people say and use it as an excuse to stop. How many times I have heard people complain or disagree about something said at an AlAnon meeting. They harp and harp on it and decide AlAnon is not for them.
And yet whatever the person said has nothing to do with AlAnon not being an excellent program of recovery from codependence. Like someone can dump all over the French language - or CLAIM to be an expert but speak it really poorly - it shouldn't stop ME from learning French and speaking it if it is what I want to do.
Alanon helped me let go of my attachment, opinions, judgments, and frustrations with my alcoholic loved lones. Whether they are drinking or not.
It's not my business why, how or if they are recovering the way I think alcoholics should recover appropriately.
Working the Alanon program cured me from my desperate need to be right and prove others inadequate and wrong. It gave me the tools to put down the magnifying glass and look in the mirror.
The "tools" I speak of are like French grammar. They don't change, and I had to learn how to use them. I took what I could use from fellow AlAnoners that helped me learn and I left behind advice or opinions that messed with my ability to use these tools. The tools don't change.
peace,
b
Heathen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
Posts: 2,567
Wow.. the insulting generalities are flying today. I used to come in here because, well I've beenon both sides of the fence. I feel sometimes that I can offer a perspective from the "addict" POV, as I've walked the walk, and can speak from experience... to be helpful. Not at the cost of just being overly stereotyped, insulted, assumed about, or disrespected.
I'm done here as well.
I hope you find the help you're looking for.
I'm done here as well.
I hope you find the help you're looking for.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by smacked 
Wow.. the insulting generalities are flying today. I used to come in here because, well I've beenon both sides of the fence. I feel sometimes that I can offer a perspective from the "addict" POV, as I've walked the walk, and can speak from experience... to be helpful. Not at the cost of just being overly stereotyped, insulted, assumed about, or disrespected.
I'm done here as well.
I hope you find the help you're looking for.
I'm done here as well.
I hope you find the help you're looking for.
It's not "atypical" sometimes it takes a pretty thick skin
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years.
Is this going to be another repeat of the last thread?
I'm done.
Is this going to be another repeat of the last thread?
I'm done.
You two take care
:ghug
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 182
I want to thank those of you that answered without kicking me back to my side of the street as I requested. Seems like while I hear a lot of "recovery takes time and it's a process and it's different for everybody"... I also see alot of lack of compassion for those days when a person that is trying to recover is having a bad day. I am sorry, just letting you all know, I was married for 25 years to a man I loved warts and all. I knew he was self centered when I married him. I didn't marry an alcoholic....or so I thought. I married a man who always seemed to handle his liquor responsibly and I was unaware of the insidious nature of alcoholism. I don't have the horror stories....until the day he shocked me to death and walked out the door for his first ever binge and never came back. We worked through many really bad situations together, alot of premature deaths, etc and came through it together. I thought there was nothing we couldn't conquer together. Not even this. Was it a perfect marriage? So try as I might, I doubt I am going to be recovered in a short period of time.
And gerryp, my attempt was to try to understand individual concepts and statements, and I said specifically that it didn't have to apply only to AA but to any program that uses that term.
Quite frankly, I am trying to evaluate whether I want to stay in a twelve step program rather than another alternative that I really like. The part I am having the most trouble with is folks who get personal and attack anyone that might have an opinion that is different then theirs or might question a program that someone subscribes to. I just don't think angry responses are indicative of the kind of people that I know that have really truly accepted God or HP into their lives. THAT's why I asked the question.
And gerryp, my attempt was to try to understand individual concepts and statements, and I said specifically that it didn't have to apply only to AA but to any program that uses that term.
Quite frankly, I am trying to evaluate whether I want to stay in a twelve step program rather than another alternative that I really like. The part I am having the most trouble with is folks who get personal and attack anyone that might have an opinion that is different then theirs or might question a program that someone subscribes to. I just don't think angry responses are indicative of the kind of people that I know that have really truly accepted God or HP into their lives. THAT's why I asked the question.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
PS
FWIW I found this extremely helpful I try to remember that these people were/are incredibly harmed by the alcoholic in their life and think of them as "still suffering", not always successfully, true, sometimes my feelings get pretty hurt, but for the most part I can search and find "true recovery" here, such as the following post
FWIW I found this extremely helpful I try to remember that these people were/are incredibly harmed by the alcoholic in their life and think of them as "still suffering", not always successfully, true, sometimes my feelings get pretty hurt, but for the most part I can search and find "true recovery" here, such as the following post
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
Recovery, for me, was a lot like a pendulum. I went from denial and minimizing, to anger and rage. It's been almost four years now and the swings are far less drastic. Most of the time I can accept what is without getting really angry about it. I have learned to forgive others and myself for being imperfect human beings.
In the beginning, my pendulum was swinging wildly. I was very angry at my XAH for a long time. Heck, I was even angry at alcohol for a long time.
Ago, I hope you understand that sometimes people post on this board when their pendulum is at the apex of anger toward the alcoholic in their life. Sometimes the words that are typed are directed at 'all alcoholics.' I hope you don't take it personally.
L
In the beginning, my pendulum was swinging wildly. I was very angry at my XAH for a long time. Heck, I was even angry at alcohol for a long time.
Ago, I hope you understand that sometimes people post on this board when their pendulum is at the apex of anger toward the alcoholic in their life. Sometimes the words that are typed are directed at 'all alcoholics.' I hope you don't take it personally.
L
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Originally Posted by FunnyOne
I want to thank those of you that answered without kicking me back to my side of the street as I requested.
L
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 182
LTD, I don't think that there is just one way to recover from being extremely hurt. And I don't think it is fair for you to continually assume that I am NOT taking care of my side of the street. For some, totally not focusing on anyone but themselves and their part in it really works. But that is not to say that there isn't another way. My greatest spiritual strides have come from a combination of finally coming to understand another persons pain, point of view or whatever and then coming to understand my participation in it. We are all interconnected. In my world I can't understand what I did or did not do to help or hurt a situation until I understand the situation.
My husband and I have had rocky times before. We didn't get through them without seeking to understand and to be understood. He is a man who developed alcoholism and is trying to recover from it. I am seeking to understand what he is going through. I am also seeking to understand what I am feeling and work through my own issues. But I don't think that there has to be an exclusive one way or the other. And I guess it depends what your goal is, if it is to walk away and go no contact with the person, it makes total sense not to focus on their paradigm. But that is not my goal. My goal is to have the best damn relationship that I can possibly have with the father of my children. No matter what that is, married, divorced. But in my book a relationship of any kind means that you attempt to understand and to be understood.
In fact, I think today was kind of revealing. In one breath it is said that trying to figure out an A is crazymaking. That has even been said to me about trying to understand my non active A in a recovery program. And then today, people like Andrew pointed out that they are just people too, people with problems like everyone else, people that are in this same journey of life with us. I don't easily dismiss another human being because their behavior doesn't please me or causes me distress. Not if I love them. I can't control what they do, nor do I want to, gave that up long ago. But I can seek to understand them and love them in spite of themselves if I can shift my paradigm to understand what they may be feeling and why they may be acting out that way. That's what keeps me calm and compassionate.
There were suggestions today in the heated post about trying to really understand AA rather than be angry at the people that don't really work the program. It was even suggested that the person pick up a copy of the Big Book, and post over at the A section. But oh my, do you see what happens when a family member does that....oh golllllyyyyy they get kicked back to their side of the street. It's almost a no win situation. Everyone seemed very angry that the poster was ignorant of the program. Then, I ask an honest program question so as NOT to be ignorant and to seek to understand and........well you saw what happened.
My husband and I have had rocky times before. We didn't get through them without seeking to understand and to be understood. He is a man who developed alcoholism and is trying to recover from it. I am seeking to understand what he is going through. I am also seeking to understand what I am feeling and work through my own issues. But I don't think that there has to be an exclusive one way or the other. And I guess it depends what your goal is, if it is to walk away and go no contact with the person, it makes total sense not to focus on their paradigm. But that is not my goal. My goal is to have the best damn relationship that I can possibly have with the father of my children. No matter what that is, married, divorced. But in my book a relationship of any kind means that you attempt to understand and to be understood.
In fact, I think today was kind of revealing. In one breath it is said that trying to figure out an A is crazymaking. That has even been said to me about trying to understand my non active A in a recovery program. And then today, people like Andrew pointed out that they are just people too, people with problems like everyone else, people that are in this same journey of life with us. I don't easily dismiss another human being because their behavior doesn't please me or causes me distress. Not if I love them. I can't control what they do, nor do I want to, gave that up long ago. But I can seek to understand them and love them in spite of themselves if I can shift my paradigm to understand what they may be feeling and why they may be acting out that way. That's what keeps me calm and compassionate.
There were suggestions today in the heated post about trying to really understand AA rather than be angry at the people that don't really work the program. It was even suggested that the person pick up a copy of the Big Book, and post over at the A section. But oh my, do you see what happens when a family member does that....oh golllllyyyyy they get kicked back to their side of the street. It's almost a no win situation. Everyone seemed very angry that the poster was ignorant of the program. Then, I ask an honest program question so as NOT to be ignorant and to seek to understand and........well you saw what happened.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Hi FunnyOne!
I hope you are able to obtain the support you need to help you through the thick of the forest. I do not follow the AA steps as is and do not have a sponsor (thinking about it) but if you listen to yourself carefully and try new things, you will find what works for you in terms of logistics and emotional stability.... you are the only one who can make the "potion" work its magic
I have realized the support I need comes according to the stages I am, first it was my Mom, then a couple of friends that turned out to really SUPPORT me and show me they are truly with me... then I saw an AA close to my job and attended daily... then I walked near to a church and cried there, found some solace... then my dad came, and brought me the Melody Beattie books I requested.. now I am reading them and seeing an individual therapist, a guy came to my life and he is kind of "pushing" me to finally make peace with the past and start enjoying what I DO have now... all the time venting in SR etc etc
Bottomline, for me recovery has not been rigid at all and I just asked HP for HELP.. and he has provided it plenty.
We will make it... you'll see. ((hugs))
PS Attending AA meetings and listening to ppl helped me 'understand' what I am really "battling", perhaps it would help you too? they welcome Al Anoners. It was like listening to ex AH in 30 years. It helps to see the "Other side" ... it helped me understand I was never, and will never be in the equation... and brought me to acceptance (Step 1!) to my new role as an "innocent bystander" that has to get strong in order to provide any strength.
I hope you are able to obtain the support you need to help you through the thick of the forest. I do not follow the AA steps as is and do not have a sponsor (thinking about it) but if you listen to yourself carefully and try new things, you will find what works for you in terms of logistics and emotional stability.... you are the only one who can make the "potion" work its magic
I have realized the support I need comes according to the stages I am, first it was my Mom, then a couple of friends that turned out to really SUPPORT me and show me they are truly with me... then I saw an AA close to my job and attended daily... then I walked near to a church and cried there, found some solace... then my dad came, and brought me the Melody Beattie books I requested.. now I am reading them and seeing an individual therapist, a guy came to my life and he is kind of "pushing" me to finally make peace with the past and start enjoying what I DO have now... all the time venting in SR etc etc
Bottomline, for me recovery has not been rigid at all and I just asked HP for HELP.. and he has provided it plenty.
We will make it... you'll see. ((hugs))
PS Attending AA meetings and listening to ppl helped me 'understand' what I am really "battling", perhaps it would help you too? they welcome Al Anoners. It was like listening to ex AH in 30 years. It helps to see the "Other side" ... it helped me understand I was never, and will never be in the equation... and brought me to acceptance (Step 1!) to my new role as an "innocent bystander" that has to get strong in order to provide any strength.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
I am trying to evaluate whether I want to stay in a twelve step program rather than another alternative that I really like.
You should go with whatever program most helps YOU FunnyOne. Since I grew up in an alcoholic family I have been dealing with recovery a long time- and I have found many different ways to help myself at different points in my life.
But, to loop around to your original question again- I think the "take what you can use" concept applies wherever you go, in the sense that: Let nothing stop you from self-discovery. And often the only REAL thing that has ever stopped me from growing and changing is...ME!!
peace-
b
You should go with whatever program most helps YOU FunnyOne. Since I grew up in an alcoholic family I have been dealing with recovery a long time- and I have found many different ways to help myself at different points in my life.
But, to loop around to your original question again- I think the "take what you can use" concept applies wherever you go, in the sense that: Let nothing stop you from self-discovery. And often the only REAL thing that has ever stopped me from growing and changing is...ME!!
peace-
b
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by FunnyOne
LTD, I don't think that there is just one way to recover from being extremely hurt. And I don't think it is fair for you to continually assume that I am NOT taking care of my side of the street.
There is nothing wrong with desiring a good relationship with the father of your children. There is nothing wrong with compassion toward the alcoholic. However, that is really not the sense I get from your posts. The sense I get is one of wanting to be validated. Wanting to be agreed with that you are 'right' and he is 'wrong.' And, in this post, that AA is somehow 'wrong' because your AH isn't recovering the way YOU want him to.
I recognize the urge to try and control outcomes. I have it, too. It took much looking inward to let it go and admit that I have no control over anyone but myself, regardless of how much time and effort I put into 'understanding' them.
I hope you don't think I am attacking you. The things I say are not meant to deride you for where you are at. More an attempt to nudge you a little in a different direction. Just like others nudged me when I needed it.
L
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
I ask an honest program question so as NOT to be ignorant and to seek to understand and........well you saw what happened.
I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the term "Take what you need and leave the rest."
well what offended people was
In what other program, process, or subject do you get to do this and still master the concept? When you are learning a foreign language, do they say "Don't worry about learning the predicate forms if you they don't resonate with you." Don't worry about the theory of relativity while building that rocket. If you want to follow the ten commandments but "Thou shalt not kill." isn't one you care to take with you, don't worry about it.
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years. They can not drink, drug, overeat, blah, or blah and still keep the same behaviors going because they were told to leave what didn't resonate. Giving up the whatever because it will kill you is one thing, but giving up the behaviors of fantabulous me? No way!
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years. They can not drink, drug, overeat, blah, or blah and still keep the same behaviors going because they were told to leave what didn't resonate. Giving up the whatever because it will kill you is one thing, but giving up the behaviors of fantabulous me? No way!
I think that is what allows selfish, self centered, egotistical, grandiose arrogant people to fool themselves into thinking they are embracing and following the program when actually using and taking only those parts that support their need to stay in that "self" mode. I don't get it. It reinforces a denial tactic that these folks have practiced for years.
frankly that's a blanket statement about AA (these folks) that's pretty offensive to sober alcoholics in AA, once again, in this particular instance I didn't find it offensive, because I read that you completely misunderstood the concept of "take what you need and leave the rest"
Viewed through the way you were viewing it, I understood your righteous indignation.
Secondly, you asked this question in order to take someone else's "inventory", not for your own program, but to find out how your husband was "doing it wrong"
The thing about "recovery" is the "focus" always remains on yourself.
always.
If you are taking another persons inventory, it's not recovery.
Not in AA, not in Al-anon, and not, in my experience, in therapy, except in therapy learning how to validate my feelings and experience and set boundaries, but it comes back to HOW I deal with behaviors, not the behaviors themselves, so the focus returns to me.
So folks around here will try to get you to bring the focus back to yourself, it's whats healthy
Bernadette gave you the perfect answer even using your own metaphors.
In my life I have offended a few people, big deal, happens all the time, afterwards I can either own it, apologize for it, try to fix it or be angry at "everybody else" for being offended, either way works it's just one way leaves a bad taste in my mouth and the other way I learn something, forgive them and me, and move on to become a better person.
I mean this is the very reason we are here, to learn how to "do" interpersonal" relationships, not how to fix the alcoholic in our life. That's what recovery is.
So you can use this as a learning experience or a bitter experience that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
For me, If I view everyone as a little zen master who is there to teach me a lesson, especially those that offend me, I grow as a person.
Sometimes they are offensive, sometimes, upon further reflection, it turns out I was the offensive one. If MANY people say the same thing it behooves me to take a second look.
We are on your side, LTD's last post says what I was trying to say better then I did.
Last edited by Ago; 06-22-2009 at 04:09 PM.
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If you are taking another persons inventory, it's not recovery.
Big sigh. . . OK. . . Here goes . . . . (getting off line and away from cell phone and going outside for a walk.) I am glad this forum is here, sincerely. Thanks to everyone who deals with the same old same old questions with kindness and a nice dash of here's-what-has-worked-for-me-maybe-it'll-help wisdom.
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Actually, I usually post an original when I am frustrated, so that might be what you see. If you look at my supportive responses to others, you might see the part of me that is really grounded and centered. I have, as I'm sure you have, received thanks and pm's for bringing my experience of dealing with difficult loved ones to the table.
I guess for me it's this. I might have been as blind as a bat, but then I must also have been so mighty and powerful as to have taken the whole damn world with me, my kids, neighbors, friends, my family, his family, his boss, his coworkers.....EVERYBODY was as shocked and stymied when my husband went on a binge and subsequent rehab. It seriously was as much of a shock as when the Craigs List killer was revealed. I have had experts tell me that this is rare, but not unheard of for a responsible drinker to fast forward in a very short period of time into full blown alcoholism.
So I thought I was living with a King Baby sometimes nasty and verbally abusive sometimes loving and understanding guy that my kids and I seemed to understand. And I learned everything I could about Narcissism, Marriage, living with a difficult spouse, Self help, etc.etc. And I didn't have any reason to learn about Alcoholism because I was either lucky enough or stupid enough to have never seen it as a problem in my life. So yes, I am trying to really grasp the "disease", the program, and the concept that my husband went into rehab saying he was going to get better and come back and make it up to his family and be the best damn husband and father in the world....and that after 90 days he is saying his life is complete with his new family of AA and he doesn't need the problems of his old family.
But I'm going to keep questioning where he might be misusing the program so that I can understand him and you can keep kicking me back over to my side. When I feel I have enough understanding to come to an acceptance I will stop asking....and be ever grateful to those of you that took the time to help me go through these stages of grief and loss without being too harsh.
This is like a death to me and I believe statistically divorce is right up there. I have dealt with a lot of death personally and in my vocation, it is tough really tough. But rarely do the dead come back to blame the ones that loved them unconditionally.
I guess for me it's this. I might have been as blind as a bat, but then I must also have been so mighty and powerful as to have taken the whole damn world with me, my kids, neighbors, friends, my family, his family, his boss, his coworkers.....EVERYBODY was as shocked and stymied when my husband went on a binge and subsequent rehab. It seriously was as much of a shock as when the Craigs List killer was revealed. I have had experts tell me that this is rare, but not unheard of for a responsible drinker to fast forward in a very short period of time into full blown alcoholism.
So I thought I was living with a King Baby sometimes nasty and verbally abusive sometimes loving and understanding guy that my kids and I seemed to understand. And I learned everything I could about Narcissism, Marriage, living with a difficult spouse, Self help, etc.etc. And I didn't have any reason to learn about Alcoholism because I was either lucky enough or stupid enough to have never seen it as a problem in my life. So yes, I am trying to really grasp the "disease", the program, and the concept that my husband went into rehab saying he was going to get better and come back and make it up to his family and be the best damn husband and father in the world....and that after 90 days he is saying his life is complete with his new family of AA and he doesn't need the problems of his old family.
But I'm going to keep questioning where he might be misusing the program so that I can understand him and you can keep kicking me back over to my side. When I feel I have enough understanding to come to an acceptance I will stop asking....and be ever grateful to those of you that took the time to help me go through these stages of grief and loss without being too harsh.
This is like a death to me and I believe statistically divorce is right up there. I have dealt with a lot of death personally and in my vocation, it is tough really tough. But rarely do the dead come back to blame the ones that loved them unconditionally.
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