I have so many questions...
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I have so many questions...
I'm so glad I found this website, because I definitely need help from people who have actually "been there, done that."
I have a lot of questions, but one has been on my mind more than others; saw one thread about why people aren't remorseful even when sober, and my question follows somewhat along those lines.
My former fiance finally stopped drinking 8-10 years after we broke up. When I heard about it I had long ago moved back to my home state with our daughter. I started attending some Al-Anon meetings, learned more about the 12 Step Program and, frankly, stupidly let myself become hopeful.
He eventually was hired as a counselor at the facility he helped support. My heart kept zeroing in on the steps about making amends (unless to do so would hurt those people or others). Twenty-five years passed...he never did attempt to make amends to either me or our daughter. Since I can't think of any reason why anyone else would have been hurt by him doing so, I can only consider a handful of options: (1) he was not sorry for how he had affected our lives; (2) he couldn't handle the guilt and didn't want to face us; (3) he still blamed me for everything; (4) all of the above.
He died last year...so, now, I face the rest of my life without having what I consider a fairly simple question answered: why couldn't he simply say "I'm sorry"? How can you presume to counsel hundreds of other people when you've not done what I consider to be a very important part of recovery?
Is this just something that non-alcoholics are doomed never to understand?
I have a lot of questions, but one has been on my mind more than others; saw one thread about why people aren't remorseful even when sober, and my question follows somewhat along those lines.
My former fiance finally stopped drinking 8-10 years after we broke up. When I heard about it I had long ago moved back to my home state with our daughter. I started attending some Al-Anon meetings, learned more about the 12 Step Program and, frankly, stupidly let myself become hopeful.
He eventually was hired as a counselor at the facility he helped support. My heart kept zeroing in on the steps about making amends (unless to do so would hurt those people or others). Twenty-five years passed...he never did attempt to make amends to either me or our daughter. Since I can't think of any reason why anyone else would have been hurt by him doing so, I can only consider a handful of options: (1) he was not sorry for how he had affected our lives; (2) he couldn't handle the guilt and didn't want to face us; (3) he still blamed me for everything; (4) all of the above.
He died last year...so, now, I face the rest of my life without having what I consider a fairly simple question answered: why couldn't he simply say "I'm sorry"? How can you presume to counsel hundreds of other people when you've not done what I consider to be a very important part of recovery?
Is this just something that non-alcoholics are doomed never to understand?
hmm....
Join Date: May 2009
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I think maybe it's the guilt that prevents people from being able to say it.
I'm sorry he died without giving you that apology, but maybe it's time to accept that maybe it was option 4, all of the above and move try and move on. Keep going to meetings and maybe speak to a therapist.
Also It's a lot easier to help others than it is yourself. He might of been a wonderful counselor but still very unhealthy himself.
I'm sorry he died without giving you that apology, but maybe it's time to accept that maybe it was option 4, all of the above and move try and move on. Keep going to meetings and maybe speak to a therapist.
Also It's a lot easier to help others than it is yourself. He might of been a wonderful counselor but still very unhealthy himself.
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I don't think anyone can answer that question but him and for any of us to try to do so or attempt to label him with X, Y or Z would be the epitome of irresponsible speculation without the facts. We know nothing of the circumstances of your engagement or his life.
When you "work the steps" typically you list "your resentments" in step four, find out you have a part in steps 4-5, and that list is frequently used by many when they get to step eight. (it's one "style" or "school" of "working the steps)
If he didn't "have a resentment" about you at the time he wrote his steps, you just might have not "made his list", the stuff that was killing him inside is the stuff he addressed.
Our memories are interesting mechanisms, we, and by that I mean the whole human race, tend to "rewrite history", for some reason, that we will never know, he didn't go back to make amends to you.
When you worked your steps in Al-anon did you go make amends to him?
If not, why?
It's entirely possible that he didn't make amends to you for the same reasons you didn't make amends to him.
For me, if I need an "amends" from someone, ie I have a resentment, I go ask for it. I say, "I have a resentment because_______". It's one of the ways I have learned self care. It doesn't always go the way I wanted it to, but it's never not a learning experience, that's for sure.
It's been 25-35 years now, and it sounds like you need closure on this.
What has been suggested to me, is writing a letter to him, go to a "sacred place", someplace important to you, someplace beautiful, maybe someplace that was special to you both, and "read him" the letter. Talk to him. Tell him how much he hurt you, tell him you need an apology. Ask him why he never apologized.
I did that, and if I told you what happened, you would think I was crazy, but I got closure. I have heard of others employing this technique with profound results as well.
It's time to heal yourself, the wound left by your relationship with this man.
:ghug3
When you "work the steps" typically you list "your resentments" in step four, find out you have a part in steps 4-5, and that list is frequently used by many when they get to step eight. (it's one "style" or "school" of "working the steps)
If he didn't "have a resentment" about you at the time he wrote his steps, you just might have not "made his list", the stuff that was killing him inside is the stuff he addressed.
Our memories are interesting mechanisms, we, and by that I mean the whole human race, tend to "rewrite history", for some reason, that we will never know, he didn't go back to make amends to you.
When you worked your steps in Al-anon did you go make amends to him?
If not, why?
It's entirely possible that he didn't make amends to you for the same reasons you didn't make amends to him.
For me, if I need an "amends" from someone, ie I have a resentment, I go ask for it. I say, "I have a resentment because_______". It's one of the ways I have learned self care. It doesn't always go the way I wanted it to, but it's never not a learning experience, that's for sure.
It's been 25-35 years now, and it sounds like you need closure on this.
What has been suggested to me, is writing a letter to him, go to a "sacred place", someplace important to you, someplace beautiful, maybe someplace that was special to you both, and "read him" the letter. Talk to him. Tell him how much he hurt you, tell him you need an apology. Ask him why he never apologized.
I did that, and if I told you what happened, you would think I was crazy, but I got closure. I have heard of others employing this technique with profound results as well.
It's time to heal yourself, the wound left by your relationship with this man.
:ghug3
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A couple of people I've spoken to over the years never even knew his daughter and I existed. He was much more successful at closure than I've been.
It's one thing to be rejected by a person when he's drinking; it's even harder to be rejected by someone when he's sober.
It's one thing to be rejected by a person when he's drinking; it's even harder to be rejected by someone when he's sober.
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Originally Posted by scarlettlove 
It's one thing to be rejected by a person when he's drinking; it's even harder to be rejected by someone when he's sober.
Sorry that you have to feel this way, maybe if you do as Ago suggested and write to him & read it to him ...you may feel better.
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Originally Posted by scarlettlove
A couple of people I've spoken to over the years never even knew his daughter and I existed. He was much more successful at closure than I've been.
It's one thing to be rejected by a person when he's drinking; it's even harder to be rejected by someone when he's sober.
It's one thing to be rejected by a person when he's drinking; it's even harder to be rejected by someone when he's sober.
"Closure" isn't rejection, please don't confuse the two, it will only harm you, just because he found closure it has nothing to do with rejection.
Thinking that you will only harm yourself.
It's possible he feels that he is the thing he harmed in his relationship with you, it's possible he feels he blew his one great chance at happiness, that he was so hurt by his drinking destroying his relationship with his "one great love" it never occurred to him he may have harmed you as well.
That is as likely explanation as anything else and it may be true, we will never know.
The fact he got long term sobriety then ran a treatment center shows the man had some depth, who knows what demons he carried around with him?
Don't automatically assume the worst, it may be the exact opposite.
Go "talk" to him, tell him how you feel. I swear I got an answer when I did that. I get goosebumps thinking about it.
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I used to read that part of my AH's big book all the time. THinking when will the Amends come??
But once I looked at myself and started working on myself I realized I do not need an apology. I have also learned that I will never know enough about another persons situation, to know what they should do.
My older dd father abandoned her many years ago, he is/was and addict. I really feel no need for him to apologize to me. I am greatful for the gift he gave me.
PS AGO ~ I believe she said he passed away.
But once I looked at myself and started working on myself I realized I do not need an apology. I have also learned that I will never know enough about another persons situation, to know what they should do.
My older dd father abandoned her many years ago, he is/was and addict. I really feel no need for him to apologize to me. I am greatful for the gift he gave me.
PS AGO ~ I believe she said he passed away.
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Hi Daisy,
I think Ago refers to the closure exercise where you write a letter and go somewhere meaningful, and read the letter and ask the questions and tell him ALL you feel... like a symbollic "talking"
Thanks Ago, I will do it too, and thanks for opening up the possibilities that they can have any feeling or thought, and we tend to think the worst, but in reality we will never find out...
Also scarlett, I am realizing I have forgotten, ignored and let others damage my "inner child". When I ask for apologies to myself for all the times when I have shut up, when I have put myself in situations of abuse, when I do not take care properly of my foods, sleep, etc, and when I can actually FORGIVE MYSELF FOR EVERYTHING... the others saying sorry or not is not important anymore...
Another thing is that my pain made me realize past hurts, and I asked for forgiveness to other people - some of them apologized to me too... like a domino effect.
I hope you continue working on yourself and do not rest until there is only forgiveness and compassion in your heart, and you are truly free from the past.
I think Ago refers to the closure exercise where you write a letter and go somewhere meaningful, and read the letter and ask the questions and tell him ALL you feel... like a symbollic "talking"
Thanks Ago, I will do it too, and thanks for opening up the possibilities that they can have any feeling or thought, and we tend to think the worst, but in reality we will never find out...
Also scarlett, I am realizing I have forgotten, ignored and let others damage my "inner child". When I ask for apologies to myself for all the times when I have shut up, when I have put myself in situations of abuse, when I do not take care properly of my foods, sleep, etc, and when I can actually FORGIVE MYSELF FOR EVERYTHING... the others saying sorry or not is not important anymore...
Another thing is that my pain made me realize past hurts, and I asked for forgiveness to other people - some of them apologized to me too... like a domino effect.
I hope you continue working on yourself and do not rest until there is only forgiveness and compassion in your heart, and you are truly free from the past.
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Hi Daisy,
I think Ago refers to the closure exercise where you write a letter and go somewhere meaningful, and read the letter and ask the questions and tell him ALL you feel... like a symbollic "talking"
I think Ago refers to the closure exercise where you write a letter and go somewhere meaningful, and read the letter and ask the questions and tell him ALL you feel... like a symbollic "talking"
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Actually, I forgave him years ago for what he did to me without him asking; my problem is I've never been able to fall out of love with him, and I hate the pain his rejection continues to cause our daughter. And one of the worst parts about never being given the truth is the stuff you can make up in your own mind. If I put a negative spin on everything, it eats away at me and only hurts me, even though I know I have to be realistic when faced with the fact that he never once tried to contact me after he became sober. If I put a positive spin on things, I eventually feel like I'm just kidding myself. If I look at some things positively and other things negatively, I still don't know where the truth lies. After this much time has passed, I'm pretty much at the point of believing that I was simply a fly caught in his mid-life crisis web, and he never really cared anything about me at all. And getting slapped from beyond the grave is hard, too. His obituary never even mentioned our daughter; instead, it listed his other daughter (who, of course, provided the information, and I'm sure she knew she had a half-sister), "friends and family in recovery," and that he was preceded in death by his other daughter's mother, referrred to as "his best friend," just as he was referred to as her "best friend" when she died in 2007. Of course, she was there when I wasn't, and I suppose age might have mellowed both of them, plus they shared a child, grandchildren and, eventually, great-granchildren. I just feel so stupid for never giving up on the dream that we might have a happy ending after all and be an inspiration for other people to believe in miracles on earth.
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I think I deserve a big assed apology and some contrition.
Will I get it? I doubt it.
So I have a choice... I can either spend the rest of my life waiting for, hoping for, expecting an amends/apology/throwing himself prostrate at my feet full of remorse which may never come OR I can practice acceptance that this is what it is and I will never (or may never) get what I expect.
The former forms a resentment.. the latter sets me free.
Will I get it? I doubt it.
So I have a choice... I can either spend the rest of my life waiting for, hoping for, expecting an amends/apology/throwing himself prostrate at my feet full of remorse which may never come OR I can practice acceptance that this is what it is and I will never (or may never) get what I expect.
The former forms a resentment.. the latter sets me free.
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Scarlett, I am with you on this one. It is these kinds of stories that make me doubt the program of AA. Because the program of AA contains the inherent message that if the alcoholic does not clean up the damage he has done others and make active amends, then he is bound to drink again.
So when I hear stories of people with decades in AA who have never made face to face amends with those they devastated when in active addiction, I start to doubt AA in general. I start to wonder if all those recovering alcoholics really know that they're talking about. Or worse, are they completely, outside the meetings, doing the very opposite of what they are talking about.
You deserved and needed an apology and he, in my opinion, never fully recovered, having not come to you with it.
I'm so sorry for this lingering pain and disappointment. For me, I simply do not view him as a recovering alcoholic. He stayed dry and talked a talk.
Be well, dear, and I wish you true happiness in your future.
So when I hear stories of people with decades in AA who have never made face to face amends with those they devastated when in active addiction, I start to doubt AA in general. I start to wonder if all those recovering alcoholics really know that they're talking about. Or worse, are they completely, outside the meetings, doing the very opposite of what they are talking about.
You deserved and needed an apology and he, in my opinion, never fully recovered, having not come to you with it.
I'm so sorry for this lingering pain and disappointment. For me, I simply do not view him as a recovering alcoholic. He stayed dry and talked a talk.
Be well, dear, and I wish you true happiness in your future.
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scarlettlove, do you believe in God or a Higher power of your understanding?
When its all confusion around me, and open wounds do not seem to close regardless of my efforts, I take my part for it all... and then hand all to God. Only he knows why things happened in a certain way.
As Ago suggested in another thread.. have you told him (symbolically) what you are telling us? I used to write letters to an AH that hurt me and then burned the papers.
Three therapists that I have seen in my life have agreed that for your mind, it does not matter if the person is actually there or not. Those are your very valid feelings.
Perhaps you had already done this, so sorry if my suggestion seems basic and simplistic so far. I wish you have faith in God/HP and stop looking at the past.... and start liviing the present, looking forward to the future.
You know, something that gives me peace? I believe when I die I will be able to see this person again, and we will be able to say "man, was it tough to go through all that" and apologize for EVERYTHING... I believe everyone is in your life trying to teach you something...because they love you and they are just taking different roles on this great scale play... but the truth does not change.
Perhaps this man's lesson is that forgiveness is a gift you give your own self?
All the best.
When its all confusion around me, and open wounds do not seem to close regardless of my efforts, I take my part for it all... and then hand all to God. Only he knows why things happened in a certain way.
As Ago suggested in another thread.. have you told him (symbolically) what you are telling us? I used to write letters to an AH that hurt me and then burned the papers.
Three therapists that I have seen in my life have agreed that for your mind, it does not matter if the person is actually there or not. Those are your very valid feelings.
Perhaps you had already done this, so sorry if my suggestion seems basic and simplistic so far. I wish you have faith in God/HP and stop looking at the past.... and start liviing the present, looking forward to the future.
You know, something that gives me peace? I believe when I die I will be able to see this person again, and we will be able to say "man, was it tough to go through all that" and apologize for EVERYTHING... I believe everyone is in your life trying to teach you something...because they love you and they are just taking different roles on this great scale play... but the truth does not change.
Perhaps this man's lesson is that forgiveness is a gift you give your own self?
All the best.
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Originally Posted by bluejay6
Scarlett, I am with you on this one. It is these kinds of stories that make me doubt the program of AA. Because the program of AA contains the inherent message that if the alcoholic does not clean up the damage he has done others and make active amends, then he is bound to drink again.
So when I hear stories of people with decades in AA who have never made face to face amends with those they devastated when in active addiction, I start to doubt AA in general. I start to wonder if all those recovering alcoholics really know that they're talking about. Or worse, are they completely, outside the meetings, doing the very opposite of what they are talking about.
So when I hear stories of people with decades in AA who have never made face to face amends with those they devastated when in active addiction, I start to doubt AA in general. I start to wonder if all those recovering alcoholics really know that they're talking about. Or worse, are they completely, outside the meetings, doing the very opposite of what they are talking about.
There are millions of sober alcoholics in the world today because of AA, and while I admit a fair number didn't work the program "perfectly" according to YOUR standard of what YOU want, there are millions of sober alcoholics that are happy, joyous and free, they and their families are free from the ravages of alcohol.
More people have gotten sober using AA then all other methods combined. I admit to cringe hearing some stories here about alcoholics using and abusing and manipulating the "message of AA" but those aren't "alcoholics in recovery" they are practicing alcoholics manipulating their environment using AA as a manipulation tool.
To judge AA by someone who didn't "work" it perfectly would be like judging Al-anon because some that "claim" to be a member of al-anon are still vicious, angry, blaming and bitter after many years of attending meetings. To judge al-anon by judging those would be doing the program of al-anon a huge dis-service.
I think it's a matter allowing some people to be merely human, and to recognize their limitations even when clearly evident and to have some "patience, love, and tolerance" for the "still suffering".
Last edited by DesertEyes; 06-14-2009 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Removed insult
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Ago, I said the same thing you just said: that an alcoholic who has not made amends is not a recovering alcoholic according to the spiritual tenets of AA.
When I hear of a recovering alcoholic who has devastated his family, made no amends, yet counsels other alcoholics on how to "walk the walk" of recovery, you bet it makes me doubt other "recovering" alcoholics, including counselors and sponsors. It reminds me that just because someone is in AA, a sponsor, or a counselor, it does not automatically make them admirable nor trustworthy.
The point of my message....getting back to the needs of the poster....is that he died a dry drunk, not a recovering alcoholic. And she deserved better. She deserved amends. He was sober and he had the tools.
He failed. She did not.
I'm sorry for your unresolved pain, Scarlett. It's good you are being honest about it and seeking ways to heal from it. Your post affected me so strongly because I, too, loved one of those winners and I, too, never received an amends. We have to accept their inability to live a life of integrity and try to heal ourselves from the pain they inflicted.
Do take care. God bless.
Bluejay
When I hear of a recovering alcoholic who has devastated his family, made no amends, yet counsels other alcoholics on how to "walk the walk" of recovery, you bet it makes me doubt other "recovering" alcoholics, including counselors and sponsors. It reminds me that just because someone is in AA, a sponsor, or a counselor, it does not automatically make them admirable nor trustworthy.
The point of my message....getting back to the needs of the poster....is that he died a dry drunk, not a recovering alcoholic. And she deserved better. She deserved amends. He was sober and he had the tools.
He failed. She did not.
I'm sorry for your unresolved pain, Scarlett. It's good you are being honest about it and seeking ways to heal from it. Your post affected me so strongly because I, too, loved one of those winners and I, too, never received an amends. We have to accept their inability to live a life of integrity and try to heal ourselves from the pain they inflicted.
Do take care. God bless.
Bluejay
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I used to think that, in the end, God was all I DID have, and I hoped to go to Heaven some day. Then I heard that he (I don't even know what to use as an abbreviation for him) had asked a minister to come to baptize him when he was in his final days because he was worried about his soul. Not that it's unusual for people to do that, but if people can really do everything and anything they want to in life, confess their sins right before they die, and God lets them into Heaven on Judgement Day...not so sure I'm okay with that theory. Good thing it's not up to me.
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Weird how repetitive this all is
Scarlett,
I am very new to this community and this situation and trying to make sense of my situation but your letter reminds me of the very immediate situation I face today. After great frustration and pain I moved out of the home I shared with my AW three weeks ago when I finally accepted that she was an alcoholic. Two weeks ago she called and as a friend I helped her get into a treatment program where I believe she is today.
I don't know where our relationship will go, but I find I have incredible resentment and am desperately craving apologies and thank yous for all I've done and been put through. I've been reading the Big Book to understand the process she's going through but have very little direct contact right now. I am craving the apology step and I wondering expectantly if her self-compiled list of wrongs will match mine. This worries me about myself.
I'm very new to all of this, but I wanted to comment on the practice of making amends from the perspective of the alcoholic. I think this is a very healthy practice for the alcoholic as it frees the mind and the soul to move on and no longer be weighted down by past mistakes. Partners need something similar, a way to move on without being weighted by past mistakes. Maybe I heal by forgiving myself for staying with her when she was cruel and for leaving her when she was pitiful. I think that forgiving myself and my AW is the only way I'm going to be able to close this chapter with a healthy spirit.
I feel a little repetitive with all the other similar stories, but I'm glad you posted your question as it helps me see myself in someone else. Good luck as you work through this.
-D
I am very new to this community and this situation and trying to make sense of my situation but your letter reminds me of the very immediate situation I face today. After great frustration and pain I moved out of the home I shared with my AW three weeks ago when I finally accepted that she was an alcoholic. Two weeks ago she called and as a friend I helped her get into a treatment program where I believe she is today.
I don't know where our relationship will go, but I find I have incredible resentment and am desperately craving apologies and thank yous for all I've done and been put through. I've been reading the Big Book to understand the process she's going through but have very little direct contact right now. I am craving the apology step and I wondering expectantly if her self-compiled list of wrongs will match mine. This worries me about myself.
I'm very new to all of this, but I wanted to comment on the practice of making amends from the perspective of the alcoholic. I think this is a very healthy practice for the alcoholic as it frees the mind and the soul to move on and no longer be weighted down by past mistakes. Partners need something similar, a way to move on without being weighted by past mistakes. Maybe I heal by forgiving myself for staying with her when she was cruel and for leaving her when she was pitiful. I think that forgiving myself and my AW is the only way I'm going to be able to close this chapter with a healthy spirit.
I feel a little repetitive with all the other similar stories, but I'm glad you posted your question as it helps me see myself in someone else. Good luck as you work through this.
-D
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Originally Posted by scarlettlove
Ago, it would be a huge favor to me if you could give me details of what happened when you read the letter. I promise I won't think you're crazy, and I could really use the help.
I went to an incredibly beautiful place, read a prepared letter, then started just....talking you know.
I heard their voice answer and it was nothing I would have ever said to myself, we had fought the last time we spoke and he died shortly thereafter in an accident miles and miles away from home, near me actually, theory was he was coming to see me.
So this was years later I talked to him told him I was sorry, told him I loved him and I heard him respond, that he loved me unconditionally, that our argument was of no importance, and that of course he forgave me.
He also addressed some things going on in my life with a statement of unconditional love for me.
I don't talk about it much but it was his voice and he said things I literally wouldn't have thought of.
Needless to say, I have closure with this particular issue.
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