Ago

I need help, I don't know if you guys noticed, but I can be pretty blunt.

Word on the street is I'm worse IRL. I hear "your tone is perfect and gentle, you say the exact correct thing, but your face, it's SCARY!!!! (it's my eyes, they are scary)

My communication often times IRL is as or more blunt then it is here.

It's caused me considerable difficulty in the past in relationships with women. I'm speaking mother, sister, girlfriends etc. Men do fine with me generally but I scare women sometimes. I mean literally frighten them. From tone of voice to facial expression. I am gentle as a Lamb, but I am and can be super scary (to men and women both). I work hard to not have threatening body language, usually it's just my facial expression, my eyes (I have super scary eyes evidently), sometimes my voice, though thats rarer, but I'm BLUNT. (no one has EVER been afraid I would harm them, I can just come across as "threatening" if that makes sense, even seated with my back to you or on the phone...even when I think I'm speaking gently)

I am trying to set some boundaries and it's going poorly.

If I use the "I feel" format, I am told that I am NOT allowed to just say whatever it is I feel. That's "Inflammatory". If I try to say how her actions affect me, it's "blaming". It's really a challenge to communicate effectively with her for me. Especially since she herself is quite a volatile southern Belle.

I don't know how to effectively communicate negative emotions to her without having them invalidated, I really don't.

I end up really frustrated.

We are actually both trying to set some boundaries, but she thinks I am just "deflecting" by bringing up my boundaries.

It came to my attention that every single time I have crossed her boundary it's because I didn't enforce mine.

So, I am trying to tell her "I see you, I hear you, I love you, I respect your boundary and am sorry I crossed it."

Then I said the same thing, my difficulties with her have resulted from me having poor boundaries, so I need to enforce my boundaries now.

She feels I am deflecting and not hearing or respecting her boundary (I think, don't want to speak for her)

One example:

I have stated no more "double standards".

No more "one set of rules for you and another for me"

I need to be clear on a few things so I ask her. Then when she has stated where she stands, I say, OK, Fair enough, I will honor that, but you will receive the same "behavior", it's only fair.

She freaked out. She finds that VERY threatening.

She has a number of reasons why these actions and behaviors are acceptable for her, and not for me.

One example, we talk on the phone quite a bit, if we miss each other, or we go do something, we say "I am doing this with her/him." or I am going to "XXXX", or "Sorry, I was at ____ with ____"

She has recently decided to not be forthcoming about her whereabouts for reasons of her own which she feels are valid. She said "what I do is safe and you should trust me." I'm OK with that. She has always asked me where I was, what I was doing, who I was doing it with etc, No Problem, but it gets wierd sometimes, where were you, who were you with, blah blah. I mean for both of us. I don't mind answering when she asks, but if/when I ask I'm accused of being "controlling" but she ALWAYS asks me. I mean BLAM I miss a call "Where were you?????"

I ask her she gets angry at me.

Feels like a double standard. Bothers me actually.

So she decides to not tell me where she went or who with.

Fair enough.

So I said, OK, not a problem, if you aren't going to tell me, I just wanted to know whether I was responsible to tell you my whereabouts any more. Since you won't tell me, no worries but if you aren't going to be accountable, I won't either. No more double standards.

To say she came unglued about this is an understatement.

I'm really OK either way, but it needs to be the same on both sides. Want to fill me in? fine, I'll do the same. Want to not tell me? Fine. I'll do the same. No worries.

For me this is about both of us having the same "rules" or standard to follow.

Another example, Her relationship status on Facebook is undeclared, and she has clearly stated I am NOT to "be in a relationship with XXXXX" because the first time I asked her, she had a stbX in the picture. They have been separated for three years but haven't got the divorce. She is afraid of emotional and financial retribution.

He recently informed her he was going to start dating other women.

So I think, fair enough, ask again to publicly declare my love for her for the world to see, she says "No, I don't want to have to explain everything to all my friends."

Ummm....OK

OK, so I tell her I am going to change my status to "single" to match her profile. not that important, just an example, but I'm going down the list and not going to "do" double standards" any more.

To say she is not happy with this is an understatement.

I don't mean it threatening, I have just allowed a number of things to "slip by" to avoid confrontation and I'm done. I don't want the resentment that builds up.

OK, If I have painted a picture of a "bad" or "wrong" person that is "doing something wrong" in any way, that is not my intention. This is about asking for help, not asking about her.

So, my question to the board is:

How can I Honor and Validate her boundaries while setting some of my own?

How can I do this in a gentle fashion so she doesn't feel threatened? How can I set my boundaries in a way that achieves harmony rather then discord? How can I set my boundaries firmly in a way that is not threatening?

P.S. By the way, GiveLove? That Tiger in a cage analogy? About enforcing Boundaries?

Not recomended for giant hairy scary "mostly Torso" White males to use with 4'9" tiny lil Southern Belles.

Does NOT achieve the desired result.

Now if you could explain how a very firm Kitten could do this, I'd be much obliged.

So, my goals are, How can I let her know I see, understand, and respect her boundaries while also putting into place and enforcing mine in a gentle manner.

In the past I've just hopped on over for a few visits with a couples counselor and been overjoyed with the results. This isn't possible in this case due to some fairly insurmountable obstacles. Like the Rockies.

Maybe an online mediator? hmmm.....

Anyway, any positive input yall can think of, I'm all ears.

She will be reading this, so be nice. (hope I was) :praying

laurie6781

Ago, please go back and read your post as if it was posted by Joe R from Indiana. Now what would you tell him?

I know what I read in your post. I know what I heard in your post.

I will post from my own ES&H later today. I am afraid if I did it right now, I too would be BLUNT, probably way too blunt for SR,

So, for now, just go back and read your post as if it was from a stranger.

I think you may start to see what I am 'seeing' and 'hearing.'

BTW there is nothing wrong with 'calling a spade a spade' or being blunt. Those of us that are that way, we learn 'tact' over time, lol (hopefully).

One of the things that helped me greatly was a sign in one of the first Al-Anon meetings I attended which said:

"Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it meanly."

That has stuck with me for 25 years .................... thus I will post later today, lmao

Love and hugs,

Ceridwen

hey there,
got to be quick as off out to work but couple of thouights in no particular order:

if you are coming accross as threatening despite trying otherwise (and it's your eyes or tone) then presumably you are way more bothered about what you are trying to talk about than the considered way you are talking here. perhaps write some stuff down and give it to her to consider first (so she can "erupt" in private, and then calm down), or consider having one counselling session together: a safe space, with a led structured discussion as this is clearly a hot topic for both of you.

you can't get her to LIKE your boundaries (they're for you......etc),

you can't say them in a particular format to get her to validate your feelings

double standards etc: absolutely, but be careful you aren't illustrating your unhappiness with her behaviour with a tit-for-tat thing (which I am getting a sense of in some bits).

actually advice would be a counselling session, she sounds like she's got a lot going on emotionally, I'm guessing you have too, and you both appear to have trust issues, which can get locked into a really viscious cycle of behaviour with both parties misinterpreting the other's behaviour as controlling AND secretive (in my experience)

bluejay6

Hi Ago,
It all sure sounds pretty draining. And it seems, from your description, a relationship of power struggles, to say the least. Not about boundaries, so much, but about power. Dominance. One-upping in order to maintain power in the relationship.

You know what? We get enough of that out there in the real world. In a loving relationship is where, one hopes, we get a break. And power becomes a non-issue.

She may be a petite southern belle, but it almost sounds like two guys outside a bar. You shove me, I'll shove you back. That is not about boundaries. It is about aggression and dominance.

My guess is that you both have some past relationship experiences affecting your interactions. She is "hiding out" from a man to avoid any retribution if she divorces him, so she's got a lot of armor on with men in general, I'd say, and maybe a lot of resentment. And only you can say how your history might be having an impact. Sorry to hear you're with a married woman.

For what it's worth, I have found your posts here deeply affecting, sincere, searching, vulnerable and honest, and they have been a great help to me. I believe them to be the real you and I hope, in time, you find safe people and places where you can be Ago, loved for being Ago, and those who know you realizing that your "scary" eyes are the eyes of a man who is growing and capable of greatness.

Bluejay

Ago

I made that post when I was incredibly angry, it wasn't as clear or as unbiased as I would have liked, for either of us, since she will be reading it, but I absolutely want help in gently setting boundaries.

I am asking for help

tallulah

Ok.. take what you like etc. .. I’m coming from my experience..

Firstly the being blunt thing. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, but as mentioned, tempered with ‘say what you mean, just don’t say it mean’. I’m quite similar in that I usually cut through the crap and if I’m not careful it can sound a little brusque.. which is not usually my intention.. so I try and put it into words which have the same impact but are not so harsh as maybe the first thought in my head. Which means perhaps taking a moment to run through it in my mind before engaging my tongue.

The issue of boundaries… ahhhh my nemesis. I think back to the early days in my relationship with the ex and I see a lot of similarities. It sounds a little like a power struggle with some tit-for-tat thrown in. ‘You are doing this.. ok well what is sauce for the goose and all that’. I have to say that doesn’t work… well it didn’t in my experience. I found myself perhaps behaving in a way that was contrary to what I actually felt just to keep ground. Doing so meant that I was engaging in a ‘battle’ that I just didn’t want to engage in: playing a game of relationship chess of move and counter move. ‘You don’t want to share aspects of your life with me? Fine then.. I won’t share mine with you’… ‘You want to do XYZ? Fine then I can do that too’.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If I had my time again I would think less about what moves they were making, do less about trying to perhaps control the situation by laying down speed bumps and restrictions and practice some acceptance. By that I don’t mean I would let my boundaries be stomped all over but I would accept the things I could not change, have the courage to change the things I could and get some wisdom to know the difference. I would look at the relationship as it is, not what I hoped it could be.. see what felt right to me and what made me feel uncomfortable or what posed a problem or a struggle for me. Then I would (with my partner) see if there were tools we could use together to address them and find some compromise or a way we both get to feel ok about the relationship issue(s). If that was not possible then I guess that is where the courage comes in.. I would have to consider whether I could accept the way the other person was and if not I would have to leave.

nowwhat

In my relationship with my XABF, for quite some time (about a year), we were operating on a double standard that was really quite absurd: even though I was the one not divorced yet, and he was divorced, our relationship was a secret from HIS ex and HIS child.

My XAH knew about us, my children interacted with him.

Anyhew, looking back, I can see how much pain this caused me. The bottom line, for me, is reciprocity. A good relationship needs to be reciprocal--can't be all about one person assuming the emotional risks.

Discretion may be the better part of valor (whatever that means!) and while I understand your GF needing to be private and self-protective, I also know that in my relationship it caused a lot of resentment for me to be the one willing to be treated like someone who was less important than the X.

I do believe that relationships are negotiations, but what is non-negotiable is that both partners need to feel valued and safe. In hindsight, opening up communication from my end would likely have ended our relationship (since that's what came to fruition when I did finally start asserting myself).

I wish I had spoken my truth from the beginning, without focusing on HIM, and then allowed the truth to set me free--whether that meant deepening our connection or allowing the relationship to end.

I hope you can find some resolution and peace. Both of you deserve to feel safe and valued. Learning to communicate can only facilitate this.

gowest

Hi ...

It sounds like you really care about this woman.

It sounds like some of her choices are hurting your feelings.

- ie - she wanting to keep the relationship "quiet" from her friends and off face book really smacks of keeping it a secret to me -- I've been going through a hell of a divorce for a long time and he has been engaged although we aren't even legally separated - so I understand the dynamic

ie - she wanting to not tell you all the details of who she is with and where she went - again I view it as secret keeping - rather than boundary setting.

SHE is allowed to make these choices!!
YOU have to be ok with her choices but this does not happen by making the same ones for yourself (because that does not seem to me that you want these same choices)

I will try to give examples from my experience:

I do not like men I date (or anybody) rummaging around in my purse. Nothing scary or exciting in there, it is just off limits, definitely a boundary issue for me.

I don't see how you (any man) could replicate this boundary unless you carried a purse, I am surmising that you do not. you would have to accept not reaching in there and that that boundary did not mean I didn't trust or care for you. I don't go into boyfriends knapsacks or friends purses.

In my last relationship I was ready for my boyfriend to meet my parents(mother) before he was ready for me to meet his parents.
I could view it as a "double standard" or just as different than me.

It hurt my feelings that he was not at the same stage of "readiness" that I was.
It made me feel insecure.
I had to accept if I wanted to be with this person, that I would have to wait until he was ready.
He did not operate on my time schedule.
Holding back being with my family was not going to "make him ready" faster.

It seems that you are trying to set the same "boundaries" so that she can see (when she experiences the results of those boundaries) how it makes you feel.

It also seems that you may be concerned about being resentful if you "give" too much on your boundaries and therefore are trying to keep the relationship "even" in advance so to speak.

I understand as your resentment is a valid concern, but don't think that creating the same "boundaries" will make it go away. It might work with household chores - one person cooks dinner/the other cleans up, but not with this deeper emotional stuff.

Only YOU can choose if YOU are ok with her boundaries.
(It doesn't sound like you are)

Only YOU can set your own boundaries.
(she can see if she likes them or not)

I'm sorry you are at a very tough spot in your relationship.
I think you guys need to have some more talks about the deeper issues going on here ... that is my real advice

Freedom1990

There are people in this world who don't and will not appreciate my setting boundaries, even if I were to stand on my head for them while setting boundaries.

That's their problem, not mine.

I also don't do a tit for a tat on boundaries.

I refuse to engage in power struggles.

I too was once involved with a man who wasn't divorced yet, and that is a place I won't ever go again.

His baggage became mine over time, and I subtly lost myself once again in an unhealthy relationship.

The person I need validation from the most is me.

Seren

Hello Ago....

I'm still learning lots about setting boundaries myself, so I don't know if I have much to offer. But it does sound as though you are involved in a double standard with the "she" in your world, and that does not seem fair to me. I've been told recently by a fellow member of the boards that boundaries are all about meeting our own needs. Is this relationship making you happy and meeting your needs? If so, great! If not, that's when you need to determine what should change in order for you to be happy and peaceful.

I know a man who is a literal mountain of a human being, and he frequently scares people through no fault of his own. Try not to take people too personally. Those who really know you will not be afraid, and those who form a judgement without knowledge.....well.....

Hugs to you and to "she",
HG

Freedom1990

I'd also like to add that even my almost 21 year old daughter who still lives with me doesn't inquire about every phone call I make/receive, nor ask me to dictate all of my whereabouts.

That's controlling behavior, in my world. I'm a big girl and answer to myself, thank you very much.

nowwhat

I had another thought about this:

I have found that my intuition tells me the truth, every time, even when I don't want to listen to it (which has been most of the time in my dysfunctional relationships).

The "thinking" mind, especially our codie ones which are so addled by insecurity and doubt, can really wreak havoc. Constantly questioning whether our feelings are valid, constantly doubting my own worth, constantly making excuses for another's treatment of me.

I'm making some progress by trying to transcend that thinking quagmire and listening to my body, my emotions, and letting them lead my actions instead of my over-active, excuse making mind.

(A very little progress, BTW, but really trying!)

splendra

First you must know that setting boundaries is not about controlling someone else's behavior it is about protecting yourself from harm.

If someone's actions or behavior makes you feel uncomfortable you must find a way to keep yourself out of range of their behaviors. You cannot make them stop doing what they are doing you have to get out of the way of what they are doing.

You can tell them not to do that stuff in your personal space to get out of your home while doing the behavior that makes you feel uncomfortable but that does not mean they will stop doing what they are doing chances are they will find someone else or somewhere else that they can do what they want to do.

blessed4x

That's the one thing the jumped out at me. That's your "little voice" talking. You know, the soft one that's not so scary. It starts out talking to us in that gentle, nudging kind of way, but if we ignore it long enough it starts getting louder and angrier.

Good for you for listening! I wish I could offer an answer, but the only thing I've got is that you are who your are.....warts and all. Doesn't mean you can't grow and learn and that you guys' relationship can't evolve into something pretty fantastic by working through this stuff. Still, I believe that if someone can't love me where I'm at then they haven't been through Life 101......which started with "the only person we can change is ourselves". Unfortunately I had to repeat that course several times!

Ago

I'm getting a lot out of your replies

thank you

I'm understanding about the "tit for tat" thing, it's not how I meant it, I think it's more:

I didn't realize that though

The part about the "where were you" came about by accident, both of us "check in", I would say neither us of "track" each other, she just sent me a message the other night at midnight that said "I'm home" when I didn't know she was out.

I was like, "home? midnight...didn't know you were out, wheredja go?"

It was no "biggy" until she said "i'm not telling you"

That's the part that bothered me. Thats when we got into problems.

So i said, "Ok, no problem, I won't tell you either in the future if you ask"

So i think what I am doing is the stuff that bothers me, if it's not getting resolved, I'm setting up to do them back to her so "she knows how it feels"

I literally didn't realize that's where I was headed with this. It was more, "these are the things that bother me, I've asked for it to be resolved with no success, I've given you the consideration I would ask for myself, if you don't extend these courtesies to me, I will just withdraw them."

This "plan" has only occured to me in the last 48 hours since I was getting really frustrated with a few things, So my thinking was "that's it, what's good for the goose is good for the gander all the way across the board"

OK, that's not going to work, any suggestions to alternatives?

I'm thinking just stating "this really bothers me" and going from there.

Good food for thought here, thanks Tal

Ago

Yup

That little voice is loud as H3LL right now, my "inner child" is throwing a F'ing tantrum...it's tedious, anybody got any milk and cookies to shut this lil b@stard up? maybe he'll think it's naptime soon.

Thanks blessed.

nowwhat

There may be some lens through which this exchange could be viewed as a normal, healthy communication. I can't come up with one, though, and I have a really excellent imagination and ability to rationalize.

Kind of reeks of "I've got a secret! Oh, but I'm not going to tell you what it is!"

Okay, just thought of one situation where this might be okay: she's actually planning a huge surprise birthday party for you, and wants to tantalize you, pique your curiosity.

(See, told you I'm good!)

To me, that would be crazy-making behavior. I would feel hurt, confused, and frankly triggered. Especially if my partner knew my hot button issue and some of the abuses I'd suffered in the past.

Daisy09

Hi Ago,

I'm not familiar with your situation, so I can only offer information about mine...

Right now, a "double standard" is the norm in our home. I expect my husband to let me know where he is, and with whom, and if he will be spending money. I do not report to him in kind, because I am not addicted to heroin, and he is. I have found that it's important to keep in mind that relationships with a person who is struggling with an addiction are different than those with someone who is not. It is my hope that we will be able to re-establish equality, but for now it's not in my nor my husband's best interests to do so.

Just my $.02 - hope things work out for you.

Daisy

LaTeeDa

There are two books I read that really helped me in understanding my relationship issues:

Conscious Loving - by Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks

Getting the Love You Want - by Harville Hendrix

Basically, it comes down to understanding your own feelings and where they come from. Only then can you effectively communicate them to the other person. "This bothers me," is a knee-jerk reaction. It's your job to figure out why it bothers you, what you are reacting to, and why.

Most relationships head into the power struggle dynamic once the initial infatuation starts to cool. If it is to go beyond that, into a deeper, more meaningful bond, then both partners must examine their motives and behaviors. Obviously, you can only check your own. But, by doing that, you create the environment where she can do the same.

Also, it seems to me that "gently" setting boundaries means doing it without p!ssing her off. Sometimes, that's just not possible. Then again, boundaries don't mean "if you do this, I get to do it, too," or "if you don't do this, I won't do it, either." As mentioned above, boundaries are about protecting yourself, and they are different for every person.

L

tallulah

Something that you just posted resonated with me Ago. This is going to sound a little odd maybe.. but here is an example of something that would make me feel discomfort and unsettled.

Using your example and as an example... A would text me saying 'I'm home'. I would text back 'Didn't know you were out. Where did you go?'. A would text back 'Not telling you'.

Now my 'Where did you go?' would not come from a place of checking up.. just a simple question of interest.. conversational... I wouldn't be thinking anything untoward about it and it wouldn't be starting up any cracker factory.

But the answer is 'I'm not telling you'. Now I'm thinking... eh? why that response and why so evasive?.

Now I'm thinking wtf and questioning something which wasn't in question. Left unchecked the cracker factory could be thinking alllllsorts of things. A simple expression of interest becomes one of questioning.

Underpinning that I'm wondering why even text me you're home in the first place? If you're not willing or able to say where you went why tell me you went in the first place? I could have remained ignorant and it wouldn't have made a difference.. but that simple statement of 'I'm not telling you' has now thrown in a little stink bomb and how important was it.

Again.. I can only speak from my experience and again with the benefit of that all important hindsight.. but those little things were done to receive a reaction and/or establish/maintain some control. A little game playing. In my experience he would give so much and then go ...nahahahah, no more. Of course that's a person's right.. but I was always left wondering why tell me half of something that I probably didn't need to know in the first place... why tug on that rug when I was happily standing on it.

I think the way I would deal with that now is to ask.. why?