Tolerating the intolerable
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: in the present moment
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"You can start by restating your rates, making it clear you're not interested in discussing any future reductions no matter what poor choices he makes, and letting him "fire" you if that's not good enough for him. You may be surprised at the chain of events that boldness unleashes. I have fired clients when I could ill afford to do so, and was amazed at what happened next. Trust."
ditto all that has been said.
I am self employed too, and the current seemingly pervasive contraction in the market is such a challenge. spiritually. so is the crazy programming i have to people please and all that.
I do try to be reasonably flexible, yielding and helpful to those with genuine needs, without hurting me in the process....but there is still much work to do.
and the irony is that the customers who try to nickel and dime me are loaded, not in need. i have fired a few, only to create the room for new and lovely customers to enter my life. i guess they have been good teachers for me.
ditto all that has been said.
I am self employed too, and the current seemingly pervasive contraction in the market is such a challenge. spiritually. so is the crazy programming i have to people please and all that.
I do try to be reasonably flexible, yielding and helpful to those with genuine needs, without hurting me in the process....but there is still much work to do.
and the irony is that the customers who try to nickel and dime me are loaded, not in need. i have fired a few, only to create the room for new and lovely customers to enter my life. i guess they have been good teachers for me.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 211
Ago, I have somebody at work who takes advantage of me, too (though not monetarily). The thing that really sucks about boundaries is that we have to enforce them!
I got to the point this year where I (emotionally, not calmly) told my colleague that I didn't like what was going on. Things got better for a time, then slowly she tried to start the same old stuff.
I found myself EXTRA po'd that she would do this AFTER I had told her how I felt. Nice, well-rounded people wouldn't have to hear this over and over, but some of these user-types, it seems, do.
It's exhausting. If I had a choice (I don't since I'm not my own boss), I would choose not to work with this person. I have found myself passive-aggressively just ignoring and not responding instead of directly communicating what my (perfectly reasonable) boundaries are.
Fun stuff, eh? I guess we take our codie patterns into every arena with us.
Commiserating and watching this thread for good, healthy alternatives when dealing with employment situations.
I got to the point this year where I (emotionally, not calmly) told my colleague that I didn't like what was going on. Things got better for a time, then slowly she tried to start the same old stuff.
I found myself EXTRA po'd that she would do this AFTER I had told her how I felt. Nice, well-rounded people wouldn't have to hear this over and over, but some of these user-types, it seems, do.
It's exhausting. If I had a choice (I don't since I'm not my own boss), I would choose not to work with this person. I have found myself passive-aggressively just ignoring and not responding instead of directly communicating what my (perfectly reasonable) boundaries are.
Fun stuff, eh? I guess we take our codie patterns into every arena with us.
Commiserating and watching this thread for good, healthy alternatives when dealing with employment situations.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 6,278
I believe it's my own inconsistency that is the root cause of the problem.
Here's what I mean. Did you every notice how some people have whiny, begging children? It's because of inconsistency. You tell a child no, they can't have or do X, and you never waiver. They stop asking. But, if you say no most of the time, but then give in once in awhile, they learn that they must continue asking because sometimes, the answer will be yes. They never know when sometimes is, so they badger and whine and beg until you give in. Which then reinforces the same dynamic.
It's the same with boundaries. You tell the guy what your rate is and you won't accept less. But then he comes with his sob story and you say okay, just this once. That teaches him that your answer is not definite. That if he comes up with a good enough excuse, your boundary will collapse. Which only encourages him to keep trying. Which then makes you crazy because "why should I have to keep telling him over and over?" The thing is, if you were consistent with the answer, he wouldn't keep trying because he would have already realized that it wouldn't do any good. The fewer and farther between the exceptions are, the harder he must try.
Make sense?
L
Here's what I mean. Did you every notice how some people have whiny, begging children? It's because of inconsistency. You tell a child no, they can't have or do X, and you never waiver. They stop asking. But, if you say no most of the time, but then give in once in awhile, they learn that they must continue asking because sometimes, the answer will be yes. They never know when sometimes is, so they badger and whine and beg until you give in. Which then reinforces the same dynamic.
It's the same with boundaries. You tell the guy what your rate is and you won't accept less. But then he comes with his sob story and you say okay, just this once. That teaches him that your answer is not definite. That if he comes up with a good enough excuse, your boundary will collapse. Which only encourages him to keep trying. Which then makes you crazy because "why should I have to keep telling him over and over?" The thing is, if you were consistent with the answer, he wouldn't keep trying because he would have already realized that it wouldn't do any good. The fewer and farther between the exceptions are, the harder he must try.
Make sense?
L
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makes complete sense, gives me my power back, and explains a lot.
It's only a "bitter pill" for about 30 seconds too
I read what you wrote and only had the "yeah buts' for a minute, you know?
It's only a "bitter pill" for about 30 seconds too
I read what you wrote and only had the "yeah buts' for a minute, you know?
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: California
Posts: 164
Ago, Thanks for this post.
I was recently asked to write down some things I would like to see changed at work for the members of the union contract bargining team. As I wrote down my ideas I found myself falling for the managment line... we will loose money... we will close..... in this economy I should be happy I have a job...on and on it goes.
We are told we can make 5 or 6 patient visits per day. We are told a visit should be complete in 1.8 hours total time. But we must be done with the 5 or 6 visits in 8 hours. Do the math.
And I worried that my input will cause the work situation to worsen, again the things that go on in my head!
Sometimes I feel like I am being pushed to do the intolerable at home and at work. I get tired of being pushed. Thanks for the ESH.
I was recently asked to write down some things I would like to see changed at work for the members of the union contract bargining team. As I wrote down my ideas I found myself falling for the managment line... we will loose money... we will close..... in this economy I should be happy I have a job...on and on it goes.
We are told we can make 5 or 6 patient visits per day. We are told a visit should be complete in 1.8 hours total time. But we must be done with the 5 or 6 visits in 8 hours. Do the math.
And I worried that my input will cause the work situation to worsen, again the things that go on in my head!Sometimes I feel like I am being pushed to do the intolerable at home and at work. I get tired of being pushed. Thanks for the ESH.
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hoosier Daddy?
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This is a great thread and has touched upon something I've been thinking about, am becoming aware of. I've had many, many dishonest people in my life. Some have outright lied, some have been deceptive using half-truths, and some have failed to disclose all the information. The effect is that I tend to look for the hidden agendas that reside outside the obvious... it's a basic mistrust issue for me. The positive is that my BS detector is pretty sensitive so I can pick it up rather quickly, but the negative is I spend too much energy analyzing/discerning MY reality and the reality of someone else. The people in my life who tend to do this are also the ones who will deny, deny, deny any alterior motives... "Oh, that's not what I meant by that.", or, "There must be a miscommunication, you misinterpreted my taking your money as I was going to KEEP it." I've tried the, "Liar, liar pants on fire.", coping strategy to no avail. 
I certainly believe we live in a society where, in general, we've forgotten how to think about how behavior and thinking effects other people. Too many people have become conditioned to proclaim the effects of others, but are slow to acknowledge how they have effected. My point is I'm realizing how it's those type personalities and those who consistently make pathological decisions without an honest, spiritual dialogue within themselves that I don't have to allow to effect my boundaries, nor rationalize them to.
I don't have to do the mental gymnastics of, "Am I being judgemental"?, "What's wrong with me I should be treated this way"? Rather, I am allowed an opinion... and if the 'evidence' suggests I'm relating to someone dishonest, attempting to control me, or that they are ignorant of their pathology, I can adjust MY choices based upon this opinion. My best friend reminds me the most dangerous people to my own well being are those that don't know... and don't know they don't know. For me, this is how I'm learning to AVOID resentments, 'victim' thinking, and needless frustration.
Thanks for reading and letting me share.
Many Blessings,
Shaman
I certainly believe we live in a society where, in general, we've forgotten how to think about how behavior and thinking effects other people. Too many people have become conditioned to proclaim the effects of others, but are slow to acknowledge how they have effected. My point is I'm realizing how it's those type personalities and those who consistently make pathological decisions without an honest, spiritual dialogue within themselves that I don't have to allow to effect my boundaries, nor rationalize them to.
I don't have to do the mental gymnastics of, "Am I being judgemental"?, "What's wrong with me I should be treated this way"? Rather, I am allowed an opinion... and if the 'evidence' suggests I'm relating to someone dishonest, attempting to control me, or that they are ignorant of their pathology, I can adjust MY choices based upon this opinion. My best friend reminds me the most dangerous people to my own well being are those that don't know... and don't know they don't know. For me, this is how I'm learning to AVOID resentments, 'victim' thinking, and needless frustration.
Thanks for reading and letting me share.
Many Blessings,
Shaman
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 125
I've been thinking
Hi Ago,
I was thinking about your post, and here's my HO.
1) I read a book on building your own craft business back in the mid 90's. It was great because it discussed how crafters love to craft, but if we're in business, we have to sell our creations. And we have to get paid for our work. That includes time put in, supplies and parts. And we can't just drop our prices because people don't want to pay. It was an important part of the book because the author acknowledged that we sometimes feel guilty or uncomfortable about charging people a set price when they think they should be charged less and we're the boss, so we could easily lower the price. The problem is - you're sending the wrong message to the customer and you're sending the wrong message to yourself.
2) As far as "teaching" a person how to treat you goes, I think that concept could be expressed using a number of phrases: sending a message, setting the tone, making one's bed. I've used "sending a message" when it came to my XABF (Hooray! I earned my X today) because of how I reacted and responded to inappropriate behavior. If he did something I didn't like, and I'd tell him - he knew I didn't like it or it hurt my feelings. But if he did it again, what was my response? I'd just shake my head or say, "I asked you to not do that". But the rent still got paid, and so did his cell phone bill, even if he didn't contribute. He didn't get cut off. I taught him, or showed him that I'd tolerate his b.s. I sent the message to him that he could treat me with disrespect and I'd still support him financially.
3) I think it's human nature to push the envelope. Children do it. They drop their pacifiers on the floor and watch their parents pick it up over and over again. They drop a toy and watch, and then again, and watch. They see how they can condition their parents. It's just how they communicate with us, but in the process they see a pattern of reactions to different stimuli.
So, as adults, we have to take care to not do that to others. But manipulators will definitely take advantage if they can. So, I think we always have to be on the lookout for people who take advantage of our goodnaturedness or generosity. And we have to draw the line. And enforce it. Otherwise, if we don't enforce the law, why should people follow it?
4) You made good decisions that you felt were sound by lowering your rates. You decided it was the right thing to do, so you did it. We are dealing with a bad economy here. You wanted the work. You said you needed the work. So, a colleague has a lot of work, and won't do business with this guy. He has a different set of circumstances before him, so his decisions will be different. I think I would have done what you did. Money is money, even if it's less. Only you can decide at what point the job is costing you rather than paying you. When I made crafts and sent them to craft malls back in the 90's, the business cost me more in time, money (supplies, shipping, packaging, displays for the mall), aggravation (I was up all night trying to make three to five of the same item, then had to go to my real job that morning; I'd have to label everything with prices and my crafter ID#; they'd call on a Tuesday to say my display looked empty and I'd have to rush to make more things to ship before the weekend). It cost more than it paid me, and it wasn't even fun. :-(
5) Moving forward, good luck!! :-)
I was thinking about your post, and here's my HO.
1) I read a book on building your own craft business back in the mid 90's. It was great because it discussed how crafters love to craft, but if we're in business, we have to sell our creations. And we have to get paid for our work. That includes time put in, supplies and parts. And we can't just drop our prices because people don't want to pay. It was an important part of the book because the author acknowledged that we sometimes feel guilty or uncomfortable about charging people a set price when they think they should be charged less and we're the boss, so we could easily lower the price. The problem is - you're sending the wrong message to the customer and you're sending the wrong message to yourself.
2) As far as "teaching" a person how to treat you goes, I think that concept could be expressed using a number of phrases: sending a message, setting the tone, making one's bed. I've used "sending a message" when it came to my XABF (Hooray! I earned my X today) because of how I reacted and responded to inappropriate behavior. If he did something I didn't like, and I'd tell him - he knew I didn't like it or it hurt my feelings. But if he did it again, what was my response? I'd just shake my head or say, "I asked you to not do that". But the rent still got paid, and so did his cell phone bill, even if he didn't contribute. He didn't get cut off. I taught him, or showed him that I'd tolerate his b.s. I sent the message to him that he could treat me with disrespect and I'd still support him financially.
3) I think it's human nature to push the envelope. Children do it. They drop their pacifiers on the floor and watch their parents pick it up over and over again. They drop a toy and watch, and then again, and watch. They see how they can condition their parents. It's just how they communicate with us, but in the process they see a pattern of reactions to different stimuli.
So, as adults, we have to take care to not do that to others. But manipulators will definitely take advantage if they can. So, I think we always have to be on the lookout for people who take advantage of our goodnaturedness or generosity. And we have to draw the line. And enforce it. Otherwise, if we don't enforce the law, why should people follow it?
4) You made good decisions that you felt were sound by lowering your rates. You decided it was the right thing to do, so you did it. We are dealing with a bad economy here. You wanted the work. You said you needed the work. So, a colleague has a lot of work, and won't do business with this guy. He has a different set of circumstances before him, so his decisions will be different. I think I would have done what you did. Money is money, even if it's less. Only you can decide at what point the job is costing you rather than paying you. When I made crafts and sent them to craft malls back in the 90's, the business cost me more in time, money (supplies, shipping, packaging, displays for the mall), aggravation (I was up all night trying to make three to five of the same item, then had to go to my real job that morning; I'd have to label everything with prices and my crafter ID#; they'd call on a Tuesday to say my display looked empty and I'd have to rush to make more things to ship before the weekend). It cost more than it paid me, and it wasn't even fun. :-(
5) Moving forward, good luck!! :-)
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Andrew, a work friend just sent me this video and it was pretty cathartic for me to watch...to put it nicely... :
YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations
YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
I needed to read this thread today...
Yesterday I did not enforce a very important boundary and today I feel so down and angry with myself!! LTD is so right the root of all this is our inconsistency.
BUT on the other hand, a few months ago, I would not even have placed any boundary, not to mention realize when one was being stomped on, or realizing my own part on this (blaming other people 100% and being angry at them)... so I guess its progress, not perfection.... right? right??
Yesterday I did not enforce a very important boundary and today I feel so down and angry with myself!! LTD is so right the root of all this is our inconsistency.
BUT on the other hand, a few months ago, I would not even have placed any boundary, not to mention realize when one was being stomped on, or realizing my own part on this (blaming other people 100% and being angry at them)... so I guess its progress, not perfection.... right? right??
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Originally Posted by GiveLove 
Andrew, a work friend just sent me this video and it was pretty cathartic for me to watch...to put it nicely... :
YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations
YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations
it was supposed to be funny, and it was, very funny, but it NAILED it, was funny and uncomfortable at the same time, whoever made that knows the scenario
well, I have to admit, next time it "starts" with this guy, I'll think of this video and I actually think it will help in setting my boundary by viewing it humorously rather then by "feeling threatened" and arguing, that hasn't worked for me so far.
Getting better every day!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Clinton Twp, MI
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LOVE that video GiveLove....I see a lot of that going on where I work, where we bow to customer demands and end up losing our asses on projects. I'm starting to see a change in attitude about it, but not much change in action just yet.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 435
Originally Posted by Ago
you shouldn't HAVE to teach others common courtesy and ethics, you know?
So did you end up telling him you were back to the original agreed on price? Or did you walk? Or did you feel you needed to stick to the security of accepting his price for fear of not losing the job because it is at least money coming in? Or did you just decide you would let this go , not be angry and chalk it about to a lesson learned and finish out the job?
When i read your post I saw that this is a perfect example of holding a resentment towards someone else when you excepted something you really didn't want to except.
However, i hope you gave yourself some grace as he was playing on your emotions and possibly intentionally on your money fears as to at least have the job. And the good news is that now you have new perspective and a boundary in regards to taking less on agreements made before you start a job?
I had a small cleaning business. I would walk at the agreement stage if I couldn't except the amount of work for what they wanted to deal down too. And only once someone wanted to pay less because they believed that they agreed to to hi a price as another cleaner told them they would have done it for a lot less. I told him the next time he should hire the other cleaners as I would at the price they were offering him. I told him he would have to pay me the agreed on price as the quote was fair to the work amount that we agreed upon.
As to my personal boundaries with those close to me, I recognize they have matured as I have or I have matured to recognize where I need one where i previously didn't know until i reviewed or suffered from a reaction or decision I made.
love tammy
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 435
Originally Posted by Ago
you shouldn't HAVE to teach others common courtesy and ethics, you know?
So did you end up telling him you were back to the original agreed on price? Or did you walk? Or did you feel you needed to stick to the security of accepting his price for fear of not losing the job because it is at least money coming in? Or did you just decide you would let this go , not be angry and chalk it about to a lesson learned and finish out the job?
Ago, when I read your post I saw that this is a perfect example of holding a resentment towards someone else when you excepted something you really didn't want to except.
However, i hope you gave yourself some grace as he was for sure playing on your emotions and possibly intentionally on your money fears as to at least have the job. Classic manipulation tactic. And the good news is that now you have new perspective and a boundary in regards to taking less on agreements made before you start a job? Or maybe that you won't consider changing a standard and engaging a request for an exception when it is introduced by the way of trying to manipulate you into your decision?
I had a small cleaning business. I would walk at the agreement stage if I couldn't except the amount of work for what they wanted to deal down too. And only once someone wanted to pay less because they believed that they agreed to to high a price as another cleaner told them they would have done it for a lot less. I told him the next time he should hire the other cleaners as I would at the price they were offering him. I told him he would have to pay me the agreed on price because it is what we agreed upon,period. As to me considering his request the answer was no because my quote was fair to the work amount that we agreed upon.
As to my personal boundaries with those close to me, I recognize they have matured as I have or I have matured to recognize where I need one where i previously didn't know until i reviewed or suffered from a reaction or decision I made.
Ago, i believe the way you wrote the post it revealed more about you getting caught up in resentment holding when you break boundaries you really don't want to break. We should not break a boundary( =standard I set to be paid) by choice (= its my business I can change the price if I so chose and move the boundary) if we are going to hold resentments for our choice because we know we won't be content to with such a choice. The answer to the manipulator, or even someone who comes to you understanding it would be a generous choice, if you would not be content with your choice and thereby holding a resentment in your heart towards them and/or yourself is: "No, I really can't do that. Sorry, I can't help anymore."( because I have neither been persuaded too and therefore really don't want too)
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Update
Went to work with the guy the other day, got to the job and it was a dead tree (like bark peeling off dead SUPER SUPER dangerous) hanging over double decker high voltage wires, with both the 20k's and the 50 k's within 5 feet of the tree trunk and the top and tallest branches hanging over the wires (which means no "block point" from above to crank the branches up, SUPER SUPER dangerous)
Anyway, it was dangerous, I figure I had about a 25% chance of hitting the wires and having them "arc" and explode, a 10 percent chance of serious injury, and maybe a 3% chance of death.
So when he got there I told him my rate. He says "But...but....that means I have to get that money somehow"
Long pause with me just looking at him with those squinty steely eyes that Clint Eastwood spent years practicing in front of a mirror in order to be in spaghetti westerns, then I said, "Yes...that's exactly what that means"
He agreed, I wrecked the tree without mishap (me coming within 2 feet of the wires, the branches when they swung by within inches, did I mention I am F'ing GOOD at what I do?)
So, at the end of the day he pays me, then asks for a few pieces of equipment of his I have been using, says he needs them for himself to climb next week, and informs me no work next week.
Fairly typical passive aggressive "punishment" for enforcing my boundaries, I recognize that BS from a mile away, I wish I didn't see it as much as I do/have to recognize it so easily.
I am sitting here trying to decide how I feel, well I have some fear but ultimately I think I feel good, I'm not sh1t pissed at letting him push me around, that's a start. I have a sidejob lined up for next week back home that will net me a decent chunk of change (low) 4 figures in three days, that should give me a minute to look for more work if it all goes well.
Anyway, it was dangerous, I figure I had about a 25% chance of hitting the wires and having them "arc" and explode, a 10 percent chance of serious injury, and maybe a 3% chance of death.
So when he got there I told him my rate. He says "But...but....that means I have to get that money somehow"
Long pause with me just looking at him with those squinty steely eyes that Clint Eastwood spent years practicing in front of a mirror in order to be in spaghetti westerns, then I said, "Yes...that's exactly what that means"
He agreed, I wrecked the tree without mishap (me coming within 2 feet of the wires, the branches when they swung by within inches, did I mention I am F'ing GOOD at what I do?)
So, at the end of the day he pays me, then asks for a few pieces of equipment of his I have been using, says he needs them for himself to climb next week, and informs me no work next week.
Fairly typical passive aggressive "punishment" for enforcing my boundaries, I recognize that BS from a mile away, I wish I didn't see it as much as I do/have to recognize it so easily.
I am sitting here trying to decide how I feel, well I have some fear but ultimately I think I feel good, I'm not sh1t pissed at letting him push me around, that's a start. I have a sidejob lined up for next week back home that will net me a decent chunk of change (low) 4 figures in three days, that should give me a minute to look for more work if it all goes well.
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Thanks
Yeah, it does feel good, I have no problem standing up for myself, I do it a lot, confrontation doesn't scare me usually, it's staying "stood up" and not folding under incessant battering or under manipulation. For some reason what does scare me, is "going back" and having to "reset" a boundary. I don't know why that is.
I can state "up front" this is my boundary, this is my fee etc. then I lower the fee "once" to "help him out" (I truly have no problem with that, as long as it was truly once) then that fee gets turned into "the norm" somehow, and I have to go back and say, "Hey, that was a situational one time thing, because you asked for a favor"
I mean, it's like, I don't mind "compromising" and "giving in" a little bit now and again to work with people but for some reason the last few years the people I have been "choosing" to have in my life take that inch and want to "be a cowboy" in Eddie Murphy's words.
So a week later, he asks me again, can you do this job for a lower fee, sure, I got no problem with that blah blah, a week later it's "the norm' again, so I have to go back again, "this is my fee, my fee isn't XXX" and we have another long drawn out confrontation.
So that's what I have to look at I think, who I choose to have in my life, how to make situational compromises be exactly that, and when not to compromise any more.
The truth is my problem isn't standing up for myself, it's waiting until I lose my temper to do so, I need to be more pre-emptive with protecting myself, in every area of my life.
Like draw hard and fast boundaries that aren't subject to negotiation, but start trying to realize what those are.
Jack London I think called it "The thin edge of the wedge", I have to stop allowing the "thin end" in because by the time the thick end arrives I am nothing nice and end up on boards like this one, and I'm mad at "them", who ever "them" happens to be, when I'm the one that let them in in the first place.
Yeah, it does feel good, I have no problem standing up for myself, I do it a lot, confrontation doesn't scare me usually, it's staying "stood up" and not folding under incessant battering or under manipulation. For some reason what does scare me, is "going back" and having to "reset" a boundary. I don't know why that is.
I can state "up front" this is my boundary, this is my fee etc. then I lower the fee "once" to "help him out" (I truly have no problem with that, as long as it was truly once) then that fee gets turned into "the norm" somehow, and I have to go back and say, "Hey, that was a situational one time thing, because you asked for a favor"
I mean, it's like, I don't mind "compromising" and "giving in" a little bit now and again to work with people but for some reason the last few years the people I have been "choosing" to have in my life take that inch and want to "be a cowboy" in Eddie Murphy's words.
So a week later, he asks me again, can you do this job for a lower fee, sure, I got no problem with that blah blah, a week later it's "the norm' again, so I have to go back again, "this is my fee, my fee isn't XXX" and we have another long drawn out confrontation.
So that's what I have to look at I think, who I choose to have in my life, how to make situational compromises be exactly that, and when not to compromise any more.
The truth is my problem isn't standing up for myself, it's waiting until I lose my temper to do so, I need to be more pre-emptive with protecting myself, in every area of my life.
Like draw hard and fast boundaries that aren't subject to negotiation, but start trying to realize what those are.
Jack London I think called it "The thin edge of the wedge", I have to stop allowing the "thin end" in because by the time the thick end arrives I am nothing nice and end up on boards like this one, and I'm mad at "them", who ever "them" happens to be, when I'm the one that let them in in the first place.
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