freya

Whoa! How about we not be making overly-generalized judgements about others, especially others in whose shoes we not only have not walked but cannot possibly ever walk?

"Most men are bad." This is an extremely dangerous and totally inappropriate -- not too mention ludicrously untrue and sexist -- remark for anyone in the mental health profession to make. Clearly this person has issues of her own that she has no problem "sharing" with her patients. That is highly unprofessional....and the idea that she is spewing such nonsense onto people over whom she holds a high degree of pyschological/emotional influence is downright scary.

Yes, a lot of men have issues related to their socialization and inculturation; so do a lot of women! The issues tend to be different, but that doesn't make "men's issues" worse than "women's issues" or vice-versa.....and it certainly doesn't make either men or women, for the most part, "bad."

worthyoflove, you recently began another thread elsewhere on trying to date. Do you not see any problems with even thinking about dating men while you are willing to remain "under the influence" of someone who sees men in this way? It is really very sad and very unfair to even begin, however tentatively, a relationship with a man when you are operating under this amount of predjudice and negativity. How can this possibly be healthy or fun or have any chance of working out well for anyone involved?

...and, just in general, why is this thread reeling off into man-bashing anyways? "Men" are not our problem anymore than "alcohol" or "alcoholics" or "drugs" or "addicts" or "abusers" of any kind are our problem.......Our problem is our own attitudes and behaviors and shame and lack of self-care, so if anyone is thinking that maybe most men are bad, perhaps it's time for that person to pay attention to the kind of men she is choosing to be around and why.

freya

BTW, if anyone is interested in mearning more about what it's like to be inculturated and socialized as a "man" in our society, I highly recommend Sam Keen's Fire in the Belly: On Being a Man.

GiveLove

I understand the emotions this is triggering and I share them.

And while this is certainly on the fringes of rainbowsend's original topic, let's try not to use her OP to solve the mystery of worthyoflove's therapist's statement, or debate the relative merits of an entire gender. That's probably not serving her.

Thanks, all.

Ago

"control issues" are "iffy" at best I think, I think that peoples perceptions of "what is controlling" varys by gender and area (cultural background)

I feel the following statements are extremely controlling to be told to an adult for example:

"you need to cut your hair'
"you need to go to sleep earlier"
"you need to eat breakfast"
"You need to lose weight"
"You need to wear nicer outfits"

you need to
you need to blah blah blah

I could go on and and on, but you get the picture, any time something is prefaced with "you need to" I feel it is "controlling" unless it is your child, to treat someone like this IS to treat them like a child.

Whether you are "right" or "wrong".

All of these statements can be made in a non-controlling way

I like you with short hair

or

"I prefer you clean shaven" for example

One of the things pointed out here again and again and again, that I think gets missed is to allow someone the dignity to make their own decisions.

Even if they are "wrong" in your opinion.

It's wrong to drink too much, but is it OK to try to "control" someone else's intake, even if it's bad for them?

Only if they are under 18 and they are your child

I feel it's controlling to attempt to modify anybody else's behavior, they are adults, you can attempt a compromise, set and state boundaries, but at the end of the day, they are an adult.

I'm not sure if it really ties in, but I view unsolicited advice in the same way.

You are having a problem, you talk to someone and they answer with:

"you need to ________"
"you should____"

or better yet

"If I were you I would _______" (always my favorite because 9 out of ten times you actually KNOW for a fact they do have had that situation in their life and they did the exact opposite of what they tell you to do, usually at that time.

That's why I enjoy the format of experience, strength and hope

"I did this and it failed, I tried this and it worked" or "this is what worked for me" or "this is what my experience is with this" not "you should_____"

Anyway, "controlling" takes many forms, and for some it's perfectly acceptable behavior because "they are right" and "you are wrong" and it's what they have learned in their childhoods and relationships, that it's OK to "tell people what to do".

I feel that the "basis" for codependency is about 'control'. Trying to manage the world around us when it gets out of control, until it just doesn't work anymore. What we are trying so desperately for is "normal" but like the alcoholic, who's answer is alcohol until it becomes the problem, we try to manage the world around us until our issues with control become the problem.

There is a reason the second part of the first step is we admitted our lives were unmanageable. I think it applies to managing other peoples lives as well.

Course, I'm a guy, and we're all rotten, so what do I know?

gowest

As to Ago's post, if you need practice on how to speak in a non-controlling manner, spend some serious time with 13, 14, or 15 year old girls.

They will have you retrained very quickly.

This works especially well if you are their mother, but borrowed ones will do -- watch the level of eye rolling.

TakingCharge999

Hi!!

I just wanted to clarify something - in the first posts, Rainbowsend was talking about social conditioning. My post just described the "social conditioning" I see from men around me.

I never said I agreed, or I thought it was true! I said "WTF" LOL. I also find it depressing they see themselves that way, and I do not believe any of those statements are true.

Also, I do not like to be compared with anyone else, I am not like any other woman, or any other Mexican, or any other engineer, or anything I happen to "be"!!

I think we are all in "violent agreement" as I like to say, that generalizations are SO last millenium

Just wanted to clarify as it seems it was taken in a bad spirit, which was not my intention at all

Whew! I feel better now.

Startingover2

I thought about this topic last night as I was up all night with the baby!

I was trying to decide if my exah was controlling or abusive. He would ask me to do something and I would jump right on it. I always wanted to look good to him. I knew he did not like chunky women so I worked hard to stay slim "for him". I remember last year after I had baby, he said he would give me 3 months to lose my baby weight. I was terrified! He was also quick to point out my shortcomings whether it be how I handled the kids, the house, or physically.

Last night I was thinking Hey! Why in the hell did I put up with that? I wasn't the one passed out on the couch, driving drunk, puking in the bathroom, or making scenes. I never pointed out to him how he was aging fast because of the alcohol.

Amazing.

GiveLove

(((startingover)))

Sooooo glad you're not under that guy's thumb any more, and that you won't be teaching your child that's acceptable behavior (to give OR to accept). Three months or else? I think you're definitely in the running for today's controlling behavior prize. Sheesh.

TakingCharge999

"he said he would give me 3 months to lose my baby weight"

WHAT?

what a jerk!!!!

I agree he gets the prize. ((startingover))

Sorry Rainbowsend, for the temporary hijack...

jaguarpcb

It's been my experience that people who claim that all or most people in their group behave a certain way, are doing so to relieve themselves of the responsibility of acting like an adult.

For example, if "all men cheat" then no man can be expected not to cheat, and it's not his fault when he does, it's just what men do, and he doesn't have to put forth any effort to avoid cheating.

Another example, if all women are jealous then I don't have to worry when I behave irrationally jealous and I don't have to put forth any effort to behave like an adult when my husband talks to another woman, I can feel free to lose my cool, because all women are jealous, it's just how we are.

So I don't think it's necessarily that those men actually believe those statements, but if they keep telling themselves that "all men are bad" then they don't have to feel guilty for not being good.

Rainbowsend

This brings me back nicely to the original post. What an arse!!!!! It's his baby and you gave him the joy of having that child!!!!

My A never commented on my weight but my childrens dad did. Apparently I was too slim before I had them (114 lbs) and if I lost any more weight he'd leave me (I ate like a horse)

Then I had the kids and was so fat he couldn't bear to be near me (140lbs) and a newly developed post partum thyroid problem. I had a huge complex about being fat for years but am soooo over it now. Hey who has a beautiful 11lb baby and keeps a flat stomach? I know which I'd rather have.

Never had a negative comment since and only attract younger men Grrrrrrr