Mental Illness and the Chicken or the Egg
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Mental Illness and the Chicken or the Egg
I truly believed that my husband was suffering from a personality disorder. I think he uses alcohol to mask how uncomfortable his mental illness makes him feel. He has strong family genetics tying him to bipolar, borderline, etc. My daughter who is most genetically like his side of the family is off the charts ODD, OCD and ADD. We talked for years about his OCD and ADD but he said, "I won't take the medicine, so why go to the doctor?" HUH? WELLLLL, what if they put it in liquid form over ice?
So I started studying and found there is a ton of medical information that says that a great proportion of mental illness sufferers are also alcoholics. So this comorbid situation is a vicious cycle.....UNLESS the mental illness is under control.
So, My R?AH was actually pretty logical while actively drinking. Selfish, self centered, verbally abusive, but logical. Now that he is dry drunking and faking through the program his behavior is illogical, bizarro, and bordering on insane. He does not track logic, math, reason. He swings all over the map. Reasonable one moment, irate the next.
We have discussed recovery brain....but I wonder if this isn't just the mental health issue, unshadowed by alcohol and unmasked by sobriety. So here is the rub, FREYA get ready, I am about to question AA's policies.....
Why is AA (and I realize it might just be HIS chapter but the big book clearly questions it) so against psychiatric drugs?
And what have you all experienced with mental illness. And finally, the chicken and the egg...the folks in his family that have mental illness diagnosis have never had a drop of alcohol....but I wonder if his alcohol didn't cause the mental illness since he is the only male with this issue?
OK, no I am not a shrink, and YES I do believe he has some serious mental health issues....no he has not been diagnosed, but going through it with my daughter and her battery of shrinks has educated me quite a bit! So question me if you must, but I am really more asking for help and experience on the dilemma his behavior presents.
Thanks
So I started studying and found there is a ton of medical information that says that a great proportion of mental illness sufferers are also alcoholics. So this comorbid situation is a vicious cycle.....UNLESS the mental illness is under control.
So, My R?AH was actually pretty logical while actively drinking. Selfish, self centered, verbally abusive, but logical. Now that he is dry drunking and faking through the program his behavior is illogical, bizarro, and bordering on insane. He does not track logic, math, reason. He swings all over the map. Reasonable one moment, irate the next.
We have discussed recovery brain....but I wonder if this isn't just the mental health issue, unshadowed by alcohol and unmasked by sobriety. So here is the rub, FREYA get ready, I am about to question AA's policies.....
Why is AA (and I realize it might just be HIS chapter but the big book clearly questions it) so against psychiatric drugs?
And what have you all experienced with mental illness. And finally, the chicken and the egg...the folks in his family that have mental illness diagnosis have never had a drop of alcohol....but I wonder if his alcohol didn't cause the mental illness since he is the only male with this issue?
OK, no I am not a shrink, and YES I do believe he has some serious mental health issues....no he has not been diagnosed, but going through it with my daughter and her battery of shrinks has educated me quite a bit! So question me if you must, but I am really more asking for help and experience on the dilemma his behavior presents.
Thanks
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,521
I wonder about this myself, and Ago said in here long ago (in reply to one of my comments about it) that alcoholism appears as mental illness. Alcoholics will have the same symptoms as someone with severe mental illness. So, there is no way to diagnose mental illness until the alcohol (and alcoholic thinking) are removed from the equation.
I'm guessing that AA is against psychiatric drugs because in the vast majority of situations the insane behavior is caused by alcoholism and masking it with the drugs simply prolongs the road to recovery.
I'm guessing that AA is against psychiatric drugs because in the vast majority of situations the insane behavior is caused by alcoholism and masking it with the drugs simply prolongs the road to recovery.
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, UK
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Hi. 
I'm loathed to diagnose my ex with anything other than being an *******. Not my place. But I'm in counselling now trying to get my head around what the hell happened these last few years and what keeps cropping up there.. and in other people's gut reactions to him.. is that there is something going on beyond the need to self medicate with alcohol.
And that is what he does. He said it himself and the times he has turned to drinking or craved alcohol have been very very specific. I don't know what came first.. the alcohol or the disordered personality.. but I do know that take away the alcohol and you still have the other. And if judging by his actions after over two years of AA is anything to go by, he probably needs more than that to address what ails him.
I'm loathed to diagnose my ex with anything other than being an *******. Not my place. But I'm in counselling now trying to get my head around what the hell happened these last few years and what keeps cropping up there.. and in other people's gut reactions to him.. is that there is something going on beyond the need to self medicate with alcohol.
And that is what he does. He said it himself and the times he has turned to drinking or craved alcohol have been very very specific. I don't know what came first.. the alcohol or the disordered personality.. but I do know that take away the alcohol and you still have the other. And if judging by his actions after over two years of AA is anything to go by, he probably needs more than that to address what ails him.
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So, what if he has a mental illness? Then what? You're gonna force him to get cured? It all goes back to the disease question. If someone is abusive to me, it doesn't matter the cause. Does having cancer, or asthma, or diabetes excuse unacceptable behavior? Is another person's choice to refuse treatment for whatever illness they have my responsibility?
Personally, I think your time and effort would be much better spent looking at your own behavior. I found having an A in my life a very convenient distraction that provided me a reason to avoid my own issues.
L
Personally, I think your time and effort would be much better spent looking at your own behavior. I found having an A in my life a very convenient distraction that provided me a reason to avoid my own issues.
L
Being Silent so I can Hear
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
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I agree with LTD - but it is helpful to know if the alcoholic has a family history of mental illness etc. for the counselors and others dealing with them.
But in the end - regardless of the reason for the behavior - it's up to you to decided if it's acceptable or not.
But in the end - regardless of the reason for the behavior - it's up to you to decided if it's acceptable or not.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pac Northwest
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I'm not all that familiar w/ AA policies, so I'm not much help there.
I think it's healthy to question it.
Psych drugs are sometimes necessary, IMO.
We cannot really get a hold of someone's mental illness though.
I think it's healthy to question it.
Psych drugs are sometimes necessary, IMO.
We cannot really get a hold of someone's mental illness though.
Retired Pro Drunk
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
Originally Posted by FunnyOne 
Why is AA (and I realize it might just be HIS chapter but the big book clearly questions it) so against psychiatric drugs?
As far as I know, and my experience in AA, is that there is nothing wrong with any doctor prescribed drug that's used appropriately.
The only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking.
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Actually, I am going to be very honest here. I think that assuming that I can banish interaction with the father of my children is probably not realistic. Can I protect myself from getting hurt, not set myself up with false expectations, yada yada YOU BET! Am I living with him? NO WAY. Does dealing with his immaturity and bizarre behavior frustrate the hell out of me................YES INDEED.
BUT, I DO share children with him, one is still a minor. Since mental illness runs in families, I would certainly like to know so that my children are educated. I have educated them on the need to to take care of their mental health. But not many recognize that they have mental health issues. He said he wouldn't take meds when he said he didn't have a problem with alcohol. Now things might be different. He HAS seen the positive effect the meds have had on our daughter and he is on her to always take them, so there might be a window of opportunity.
AND, since the little pig in the straw house didn't take care of his retirement fund, I would like to try to influence (not fix) him to seek help so that he doesn't become a burden on the kids as his mom did. We might have avoided a lot of hearache had we been more proactive with her illness....and I said might. She may not have been willing.
Now I am going to say something that I hope doesn't come off as imflammatory. Some people can say "Well I have no control over that! Adios." And those folks might be awfully healthy. But I have more than a few in my life who use "Giving it back to God" when they are really saying "Not dealing with that crap" and forget to look at the fact that it's their crap! Dealing with my R?AH right now is MY CRAP. I am the type of person that has to understand a situation before I can deal with it in a healthy fashion. Sorry. When I come to this board, it is generally in the spirit of St Frances, to seek to understand. Being told to "move along" from somebody that I cannot or should not "move along" from at this time is not helpful. I have taken on enough guilt in my lifetime to have any more hurled at me. I am tenacious. I am going to try to have the best relationship with him that I can. I have been at too many weddings where the Mother of and the Father of throw a negative energy force over the whole event.
I had a sister that was difficult. Being estranged from her was not healthy for me. I couldn't put down the unfinished business, and knew God made us FAMILY for a reason. Once I understood her, compared notes with others that dealt with her specific illness, then I was able to have a relationship with her in love and celebration of our differences.
That meant the world to us both when she was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. I'm glad I obsessed about her enough to understand her. That's just me.
Sometimes I say I came I tried I conquered.....sometimes I say I came I tried Oh Well, at least I tried.
BUT, I DO share children with him, one is still a minor. Since mental illness runs in families, I would certainly like to know so that my children are educated. I have educated them on the need to to take care of their mental health. But not many recognize that they have mental health issues. He said he wouldn't take meds when he said he didn't have a problem with alcohol. Now things might be different. He HAS seen the positive effect the meds have had on our daughter and he is on her to always take them, so there might be a window of opportunity.
AND, since the little pig in the straw house didn't take care of his retirement fund, I would like to try to influence (not fix) him to seek help so that he doesn't become a burden on the kids as his mom did. We might have avoided a lot of hearache had we been more proactive with her illness....and I said might. She may not have been willing.
Now I am going to say something that I hope doesn't come off as imflammatory. Some people can say "Well I have no control over that! Adios." And those folks might be awfully healthy. But I have more than a few in my life who use "Giving it back to God" when they are really saying "Not dealing with that crap" and forget to look at the fact that it's their crap! Dealing with my R?AH right now is MY CRAP. I am the type of person that has to understand a situation before I can deal with it in a healthy fashion. Sorry. When I come to this board, it is generally in the spirit of St Frances, to seek to understand. Being told to "move along" from somebody that I cannot or should not "move along" from at this time is not helpful. I have taken on enough guilt in my lifetime to have any more hurled at me. I am tenacious. I am going to try to have the best relationship with him that I can. I have been at too many weddings where the Mother of and the Father of throw a negative energy force over the whole event.
I had a sister that was difficult. Being estranged from her was not healthy for me. I couldn't put down the unfinished business, and knew God made us FAMILY for a reason. Once I understood her, compared notes with others that dealt with her specific illness, then I was able to have a relationship with her in love and celebration of our differences.
That meant the world to us both when she was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. I'm glad I obsessed about her enough to understand her. That's just me.
Sometimes I say I came I tried I conquered.....sometimes I say I came I tried Oh Well, at least I tried.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
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As I progressed in recovery I learned that "Movin' on" means getting the focus off the alcoholic and onto ME.
The details of our lives and your entanglements w/ the alcoholic are a factor in this type of "movin' on," no question, but the thing I am here on SR to learn about and be reminded of is that the more time I spend with my magnifying glass trying to catalogue, figure out, understand, lament, research, complain about, the things the alcoholic is doing, the more it is preventing me from looking in the mirror and taking a really hard look at myself.
When I was still in pain and wrapped up in my brothers alcoholism and someone with a little recovery would suggest "detaching" I would get very defensive and say something like "Oh- just abandon my brothers? Even though they are so lost and sick etc?"
I reacted this way because of my own misunderstanding of what detaching from addiction/alcoholism REALLY means and what it looks like. I had a LOT of wrong ASSUMPTIONS about what detachment is and what is the best way to live a healthy life when you have alcoholic loved ones.
Believe me I know the many faces of the obsession and impulse to investigate thoroughly the world of the alcoholic and their mind - but seriously- my life improves 100 fold when I invest that kind of curiousity and energy in how MY mind works and why I make the choices I make!!
And in no way have I abandoned my brothers, left them in the dust, or any such thing. I love them now with greater compassion and honesty than I did when I was still tangled up in their sh*t!!!
I only wish I had found something like AlAnon/AlAteen when I was a teenager and my dad was still actively drinking...but alas, we all come to these things in our way and in our time....
Recovery/change is hard and uncomfortable work sometimes...but worth it! And remember the "movin' on" is mental!
peace funnyone!
b
The details of our lives and your entanglements w/ the alcoholic are a factor in this type of "movin' on," no question, but the thing I am here on SR to learn about and be reminded of is that the more time I spend with my magnifying glass trying to catalogue, figure out, understand, lament, research, complain about, the things the alcoholic is doing, the more it is preventing me from looking in the mirror and taking a really hard look at myself.
When I was still in pain and wrapped up in my brothers alcoholism and someone with a little recovery would suggest "detaching" I would get very defensive and say something like "Oh- just abandon my brothers? Even though they are so lost and sick etc?"
I reacted this way because of my own misunderstanding of what detaching from addiction/alcoholism REALLY means and what it looks like. I had a LOT of wrong ASSUMPTIONS about what detachment is and what is the best way to live a healthy life when you have alcoholic loved ones.
Believe me I know the many faces of the obsession and impulse to investigate thoroughly the world of the alcoholic and their mind - but seriously- my life improves 100 fold when I invest that kind of curiousity and energy in how MY mind works and why I make the choices I make!!
And in no way have I abandoned my brothers, left them in the dust, or any such thing. I love them now with greater compassion and honesty than I did when I was still tangled up in their sh*t!!!
I only wish I had found something like AlAnon/AlAteen when I was a teenager and my dad was still actively drinking...but alas, we all come to these things in our way and in our time....
Recovery/change is hard and uncomfortable work sometimes...but worth it! And remember the "movin' on" is mental!
peace funnyone!
b
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Originally Posted by anvilhead
nobody here has recommended that you leave him in the dust. what is often suggested is that LIVING with an active addict or alcoholic might not be in one's best interest and moving to a safe distance might be in order. especially with kids involved. from what i understand you've already done that?????
Last edited by DesertEyes; 05-24-2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason: fixed broken quote
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As it turns out, my tendency to obsess over other people's problems and how they might go about fixing them was part of my 'mental illness.'
I didn't want to believe it, but in my life it has proven to be true that the only way I can really help anyone else is to work on me.
L
I didn't want to believe it, but in my life it has proven to be true that the only way I can really help anyone else is to work on me.
L
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I think that after every acknowledgement of a life altering loss, we must allow ourselves a period of grieving where we get to just wallow. I am in my self allowed wallowing period as I never saw my 25 year marriage ending, I didn't get a say in it, and it's only been 5 weeks since I actually realized it was over.
I will say this about obsessing from the point of view of my vocation. I run an organization for patients and family members diagnosed with a rare and deadly cancer. Almost always these people deluge themselves with hours and hours of internet research, run from doctor to doctor, believe every snake oil add, and bring every anecdotal success story to the attention of the other members for comment. This process almost always lasts longer than one would think, and I always worry that they will never accept the cold cruel truth that this is a damn deadly cancer and the very best treatment that we have is only effective 30% of the time and the chances that their loved one (or themselves) will be dead within 5 years is almost 90%.
But, through this process, and by sharing stories, they come to an acceptance, and almost ALWAYS this acceptance is accompanied by grace.
I think sometimes when we focus solely on what we should be "doing" to move on we miss the natural progression of time and acceptance, and the grace of the good HP.
I will say this about obsessing from the point of view of my vocation. I run an organization for patients and family members diagnosed with a rare and deadly cancer. Almost always these people deluge themselves with hours and hours of internet research, run from doctor to doctor, believe every snake oil add, and bring every anecdotal success story to the attention of the other members for comment. This process almost always lasts longer than one would think, and I always worry that they will never accept the cold cruel truth that this is a damn deadly cancer and the very best treatment that we have is only effective 30% of the time and the chances that their loved one (or themselves) will be dead within 5 years is almost 90%.
But, through this process, and by sharing stories, they come to an acceptance, and almost ALWAYS this acceptance is accompanied by grace.
I think sometimes when we focus solely on what we should be "doing" to move on we miss the natural progression of time and acceptance, and the grace of the good HP.
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That's good to hear. That you understand all the obsessing in the world is not going to fix the problem and that you understand no one is criticizing you, only urging you to find acceptance and to take care of yourself. Which you will, in your own time.
L
L
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 211
My XAH was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after our divorce, sought treatment and is doing much better. It has taken me two years, however, to move past resentment and anger and into acceptance, forgiveness and a sense of love toward him.
He would never have taken the time to fix himself had we not divorced, because he truly didn't think he had any problems (other than a nagging wife, of course).
My current XABF (what a tangled web I've weaved) is diagnosed with depression, takes two meds, drinks heavily and has mood swings that are remarkable. He KNOWS he has problems but seems unable to work toward fixing them. I believe he has a personality disorder, too.
I am like you in that I want to understand it all. For me, it is necessary for me to see that he is a damaged human being and that "hurt people hurt people." For me, this helps me return to the person I want to be: one who is loving, can be vulnerable, makes mistakes also, and is worthy of love. For me, I need to be able to let go of the pain of the relationship in a non-angry way. I can't turn off my thoughts and feelings and WHO I AM. Stuffing all of this into the dark corners of my mind and just "moving on" doesn't feel healthy or right to me.
Taking positive actions to care for myself is my new agenda. It sounds like you are doing this, in your way and in your time. Five weeks is a blip on the radar and it's perfectly reasonable that you are still trying to make sense of all this.
As a prologue to my novel, I want to mention that my teenage son also struggles with depression and anxiety (it runs in our family very strongly). The sad paradox of mental/mood disorders is that while we are experiencing them, we don't have the capacity to make rational decisions regarding treatment (I see this in myself, I resisted taking antidepressants because of the effects on my sex drive, when sex has been only a tiny percentage of my life). I applaud your efforts to educate your children. Even a kernel of knowledge around all of this may eventually prove to be life-changing and very positive for them, if they experience these troubles.
Thinking of you today as we are on a similar wavelength presently. Hope you have a peaceful and positive day!
He would never have taken the time to fix himself had we not divorced, because he truly didn't think he had any problems (other than a nagging wife, of course).
My current XABF (what a tangled web I've weaved) is diagnosed with depression, takes two meds, drinks heavily and has mood swings that are remarkable. He KNOWS he has problems but seems unable to work toward fixing them. I believe he has a personality disorder, too.
I am like you in that I want to understand it all. For me, it is necessary for me to see that he is a damaged human being and that "hurt people hurt people." For me, this helps me return to the person I want to be: one who is loving, can be vulnerable, makes mistakes also, and is worthy of love. For me, I need to be able to let go of the pain of the relationship in a non-angry way. I can't turn off my thoughts and feelings and WHO I AM. Stuffing all of this into the dark corners of my mind and just "moving on" doesn't feel healthy or right to me.
Taking positive actions to care for myself is my new agenda. It sounds like you are doing this, in your way and in your time. Five weeks is a blip on the radar and it's perfectly reasonable that you are still trying to make sense of all this.
As a prologue to my novel, I want to mention that my teenage son also struggles with depression and anxiety (it runs in our family very strongly). The sad paradox of mental/mood disorders is that while we are experiencing them, we don't have the capacity to make rational decisions regarding treatment (I see this in myself, I resisted taking antidepressants because of the effects on my sex drive, when sex has been only a tiny percentage of my life). I applaud your efforts to educate your children. Even a kernel of knowledge around all of this may eventually prove to be life-changing and very positive for them, if they experience these troubles.
Thinking of you today as we are on a similar wavelength presently. Hope you have a peaceful and positive day!
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
Join Date: Jan 2009
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After years of alcohol and the age of when one started drinking it affects one's maturity and one's mental health and mental functions. So now when not drinking and not using the brain 'dependant' medicine(alcohol) one may have to recover and/ or heal the damage over time.
I have a friend in the mental health field who says their "unwritten" standard of "advice and opinion" is not hire an alcoholic unless it is known they have not been drinking for at least 3 years because of what they believe it does to the brains thinking and the time need for it to function right again.
Sometimes the entirety of physical damaged cannot be recovered.
And then he could really have an 'unrelated' personality disorder, unrelated to alcohol that is.
I think AA is wise in this as I believe the 'personality disorder' percentage is really the 'disorder of a personality' because of being an active alcohol abuser. I believe the example of those who live a life no longer drinking and have worked a program are an example of this, that insanity is driven by the alcohol abuse. I wonder how many family members believed they had a personality disorder????
They diagnosed my sister with one when and went not an active alcoholic/addict and she does not. I myself have wondered about my AH. However, I always come to see it is related to the stunting of his maturity ( due to alcohol abuse) and/or munipulation , of which AH himself has admitted to me he has acted mentally 'off' so that I may then feel bad and think he has an excuse for his drinking or because he wants to be excused for the abuse he spews from his mouth when he is drunk.
I have a friend in the mental health field who says their "unwritten" standard of "advice and opinion" is not hire an alcoholic unless it is known they have not been drinking for at least 3 years because of what they believe it does to the brains thinking and the time need for it to function right again.
Sometimes the entirety of physical damaged cannot be recovered.
And then he could really have an 'unrelated' personality disorder, unrelated to alcohol that is.
I think AA is wise in this as I believe the 'personality disorder' percentage is really the 'disorder of a personality' because of being an active alcohol abuser. I believe the example of those who live a life no longer drinking and have worked a program are an example of this, that insanity is driven by the alcohol abuse. I wonder how many family members believed they had a personality disorder????
They diagnosed my sister with one when and went not an active alcoholic/addict and she does not. I myself have wondered about my AH. However, I always come to see it is related to the stunting of his maturity ( due to alcohol abuse) and/or munipulation , of which AH himself has admitted to me he has acted mentally 'off' so that I may then feel bad and think he has an excuse for his drinking or because he wants to be excused for the abuse he spews from his mouth when he is drunk.
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I'm guessing that AA is against psychiatric drugs because in the vast majority of situations the insane behavior is caused by alcoholism and masking it with the drugs simply prolongs the road to recovery.
While I was still drinking, and 'seeing' a psych Dr (whom I was not totally honest with about my drinking) in 1972 I was diagnosed as Manic Depressive/Schizophrenic. After I found recovery (got sober) in '81, I started working and living the 12 Step Program. Things did get better for a pretty good long time, however, at 9 years sober, I knew something was terribly wrong ...................... I just knew I needed to be locked up in a padded cell. I found a great psych Dr that had spent her life working with those suffering from addiction.
Turns out I am Bi-Polar. Turns out for years alcohol was my medicine until it turned on me and became my Master.
I have learned over these many years in recovery that any psych Dr, counselor, therapist will NOT attempt to diagnose any mental illnesses of any kind until the alcohol has been totally removed for some time.
In early recovery, a person can exhibit great depression and maniac highs that do abate as the alcohol is removed and the individual starts to work on ones self. Alcohol, after all is first an irritant and then a depressive agent.
Funny One the BB does NOT questions psychiatric drugs, some 'know it alls' in AA might, but something I learned from my sponsor very early was this when someone would confront me about ANY medication (antibiotics, whatever) that my Dr had me on my stock answer was and is:
"That is between my doctor and me." Of course, me being the smart azz that I still am, usually ask them if they got their MD degree at Sears and Roebuck.
FO you AH may have mental problems, he may not. It is up to him to seek out an addiction Psych Dr, counselor, or therapist. Unfortunately you cannot do it for him. All you can do for you and your child(ren) is set YOUR Boundaries of what will be/is acceptable behavior and what is not around you and the children.
Maybe for your own edification you could read the AA Big Book yourself. Until you can get your own copy, here is where you can read it on line:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/
J M H O
Love and hugs,
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Location: Back South where I belong!
Posts: 210
I have been thinking about this a lot, too, lately. XAH, though I don't talk to him very often, states he thinks he was mentally ill and now is better. Although I know nothing for certain since I am far away now (and never really knew anything for certain when we were together since he hid it so well), he says he has not been drinking for almost a year. He is going to AA but not "doing" AA - just kind of showing up to satisfy legal requirements since he is under house arrest for causing a horrible wreck while drunk.
Am really working on me with a therapist and it's painful at the moment. I have to believe it's going somewhere but right now I understand that I'm stuck and it didn't just happen overnight or with this latest relationship.
I do think everyone here is right when they say trying to figure out the A, whether mentally ill or not, is futile and distracting. Although to me this focus on yourself stuff seems selfish and I'm trying to reconcile it with my spiritual beliefs about helping others and giving back. It's complicated!
It is difficult to not have a handle on "what's come about and why." You'd really like to be able to understand the other person since the whole drama of what happened between the two of you seems so central to life right now. I guess the goal, though, is to understand yourself and create your own life separate from the never-ending drama.
Am really working on me with a therapist and it's painful at the moment. I have to believe it's going somewhere but right now I understand that I'm stuck and it didn't just happen overnight or with this latest relationship.
I do think everyone here is right when they say trying to figure out the A, whether mentally ill or not, is futile and distracting. Although to me this focus on yourself stuff seems selfish and I'm trying to reconcile it with my spiritual beliefs about helping others and giving back. It's complicated!
It is difficult to not have a handle on "what's come about and why." You'd really like to be able to understand the other person since the whole drama of what happened between the two of you seems so central to life right now. I guess the goal, though, is to understand yourself and create your own life separate from the never-ending drama.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Question:
Answer:
and:
All quotes BB 1st edition
AA is NOT against psych drugs
As a matter of fact, Psychiatrists are "indispensable" in some cases. Strong language actually stating anything but an antipathy to the mental health community
http://recoveryissexy.com/the-aa-mem...d-other-drugs/
Here is a great example of ESH from a recovering alcoholic who's experience matches my own in sobriety
First, I'd strongly recomend if you want to know something about AA ask a sober alcoholic around here, there is an abundance of experience that is yours for the asking, freedom, laurie, astro etc
If you ever have any questions I'll even direct you where you can read what you want to know for yourself.
Second, I learned that if I wanted recovery from codependency I had to stop trying to figure "them" out and start trying to figure me out. You can study alcoholism and try to figure him out until the cows come home and all it will make you is angry and confused.
It's just not helpful.
Alcoholics are addicted to alcohol and by definition...insane.
Codependents are addicted to alcoholics, and therefore by definition......
That's why the second step in both AA and Al-anon is:
Step away from the insanity
It's infectious
Stated best by LTD
Why is AA so against psychiatric drugs?
God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitated to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward.
A body badly burned by alcohol does not often recover overnight nor do twisted thinking and depression vanish in a twinkling.
AA is NOT against psych drugs
As a matter of fact, Psychiatrists are "indispensable" in some cases. Strong language actually stating anything but an antipathy to the mental health community
http://recoveryissexy.com/the-aa-mem...d-other-drugs/
Because of the difficulties that many alcoholics have with drugs, some members have taken the position that no on in A. A. should take any medication. While this position has undoubtedly prevented relapses for some, it has meant disaster for others.
A. A. members and many of their physicians have described situation in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.’s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.
We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics and others requiring medication that well meaning A. A. friends have often discourage them from taking prescribed medication.
Unfortunately, by following layman’s advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all the their previous intensity.
On top of that, they feel guilty because they are convinced that " A. A. is against pills."
It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become re-addicted to any drug, it’s equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems….
A. A. members and many of their physicians have described situation in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.’s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.
We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics and others requiring medication that well meaning A. A. friends have often discourage them from taking prescribed medication.
Unfortunately, by following layman’s advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all the their previous intensity.
On top of that, they feel guilty because they are convinced that " A. A. is against pills."
It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become re-addicted to any drug, it’s equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems….
In early recovery, a person can exhibit great depression and maniac highs that do abate as the alcohol is removed and the individual starts to work on ones self. Alcohol, after all is first an irritant and then a depressive agent.
Funny One the BB does NOT questions psychiatric drugs, some 'know it alls' in AA might, but something I learned from my sponsor very early was this when someone would confront me about ANY medication (antibiotics, whatever) that my Dr had me on my stock answer was and is:
"That is between my doctor and me." Of course, me being the smart azz that I still am, usually ask them if they got their MD degree at Sears and Roebuck.
FO your AH may have mental problems, he may not. It is up to him to seek out an addiction Psych Dr, counselor, or therapist. Unfortunately you cannot do it for him. All you can do for you and your child(ren) is set YOUR Boundaries of what will be/is acceptable behavior and what is not around you and the children.
Funny One the BB does NOT questions psychiatric drugs, some 'know it alls' in AA might, but something I learned from my sponsor very early was this when someone would confront me about ANY medication (antibiotics, whatever) that my Dr had me on my stock answer was and is:
"That is between my doctor and me." Of course, me being the smart azz that I still am, usually ask them if they got their MD degree at Sears and Roebuck.
FO your AH may have mental problems, he may not. It is up to him to seek out an addiction Psych Dr, counselor, or therapist. Unfortunately you cannot do it for him. All you can do for you and your child(ren) is set YOUR Boundaries of what will be/is acceptable behavior and what is not around you and the children.
If you ever have any questions I'll even direct you where you can read what you want to know for yourself.
Second, I learned that if I wanted recovery from codependency I had to stop trying to figure "them" out and start trying to figure me out. You can study alcoholism and try to figure him out until the cows come home and all it will make you is angry and confused.
It's just not helpful.
Alcoholics are addicted to alcohol and by definition...insane.
Codependents are addicted to alcoholics, and therefore by definition......
That's why the second step in both AA and Al-anon is:
Came to believe that a power greater then ourselves could restore us to sanity
It's infectious
Cessation of drinking is but the first step away from a highly strained, abnormal condition. A doctor said to us, "Years of lining with an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife or child neurotic. The entire family is, to some extent, ill."
Personally, I think your time and effort would be much better spent looking at your own behavior. I found having an A in my life a very convenient distraction that provided me a reason to avoid my own issues.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
I agree we need to work on ourselves instead of play psychologist with other people.
However, this reminds me of my theater lessons when we are "forcing" a character. This is what the director tells me:
"Sandra, I do not feel YOU... I need you to flow, be more organic, let it come naturally.. you do not need to show Y feeling that much, just internalize it... we will all feel it instantaneously, without so much fireworks, you need not be so obvious"
So its a process. I too find myself reading about Borderline personalities, etc. and it helps me not because my life is all about ex AH or because I am going to run to him and tell him I finally know the root of all his problems.
It comes to "knowing your 'enemy' "...
Someone told me once, "your enemy has a huge vulnerability. He is predictable"
Knowing about alcoholism/mental disorders helps ME (no one is helping HIM) in a variety of ways
- I am reaffirmed as in these disorders exist and are a reality
- I am not alone in my perceptions of common relationship dynamics
- I can identify behaviours in people around me so I get as far away as possible
- I get an AHA moment where I can see ex AH's problems started so much time ago, just like mine, and it removes my guilt from leaving him to keep drinking his slow death... it reaffirms the 1st "C": I did not cause his problem..
There will be a time when FunnyOne's mind is OK with the extent of what she knows, but it will come organically, from many places... "just move on and think/do something else" well, yes, but this is part of the "moving on" stage and is totally understandable to try and see the role you played, and the role the other one played. Acceptance is both a conscious decision to move forward AND allowing yourself to "be where you are" and make all these questions...
It may seem as a waste of time for some but if FunnyOne needs to know this or sort this through, it is helping HER manage her future interactions with AH... so in the end it really is about her.
Just my two cents and very humble opinion. I may have it all wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, LOL!
However, this reminds me of my theater lessons when we are "forcing" a character. This is what the director tells me:
"Sandra, I do not feel YOU... I need you to flow, be more organic, let it come naturally.. you do not need to show Y feeling that much, just internalize it... we will all feel it instantaneously, without so much fireworks, you need not be so obvious"
So its a process. I too find myself reading about Borderline personalities, etc. and it helps me not because my life is all about ex AH or because I am going to run to him and tell him I finally know the root of all his problems.
It comes to "knowing your 'enemy' "...
Someone told me once, "your enemy has a huge vulnerability. He is predictable"
Knowing about alcoholism/mental disorders helps ME (no one is helping HIM) in a variety of ways
- I am reaffirmed as in these disorders exist and are a reality
- I am not alone in my perceptions of common relationship dynamics
- I can identify behaviours in people around me so I get as far away as possible
- I get an AHA moment where I can see ex AH's problems started so much time ago, just like mine, and it removes my guilt from leaving him to keep drinking his slow death... it reaffirms the 1st "C": I did not cause his problem..
There will be a time when FunnyOne's mind is OK with the extent of what she knows, but it will come organically, from many places... "just move on and think/do something else" well, yes, but this is part of the "moving on" stage and is totally understandable to try and see the role you played, and the role the other one played. Acceptance is both a conscious decision to move forward AND allowing yourself to "be where you are" and make all these questions...
It may seem as a waste of time for some but if FunnyOne needs to know this or sort this through, it is helping HER manage her future interactions with AH... so in the end it really is about her.
Just my two cents and very humble opinion. I may have it all wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, LOL!
Last edited by TakingCharge999; 05-25-2009 at 03:30 PM.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 435
FunnyOne wrote: Why is AA (and I realize it might just be HIS chapter but the big book clearly questions it) so against psychiatric drugs?
Thank you Laurie and Ago for clarifying AA position and quoting.
My post did not clarify how I read and responded to this quote. I was responding to the perspective as to an active user who has never been diagnosed when inactive.
Thank you Laurie and Ago for clarifying AA position and quoting.
My post did not clarify how I read and responded to this quote. I was responding to the perspective as to an active user who has never been diagnosed when inactive.
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