boyfriend 14 years sober - is it him or the alcoholism?
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boyfriend 14 years sober - is it him or the alcoholism?
I've never done this before, so i'll try to limit this first post
I've been dating a man for a year and 1/2. He's 13 years sober in AA. Through my own personal combination of experiences, I really haven't dated
all that extensively (though Im in my thirties). What I am questioning is whether some of the traits he exhibits are part of being a recovering alcoholic, or if they are him (i know, he IS the alcoholic). I am trying to figure out how to address issues with him. For instance, our time spent together is very regulated - set days of the week, no spontaneity. He rarely, if ever calls me. Our 'conversations', unless we're together, are limited to emailing. All plans feel like they have to be made through email. He has set meetings he goes to, and I want to support him unreservedly, but sometimes I really feel out of the loop. Like he can't go to a different meeting and have a visit with me. It's all very rigid. And it feels difficult to talk about because of the territory - he's spending the time at meetings after all, and he needs to be able to do that. Now, he's absolutely not secretly married or seeing someone else - he's far too committed to the program for that nonsense. i just have never dated someone who in some ways seems
rather uninterested in, well, me, while at the same time he's making plans for the future (none of which involve seeing or calling me more frequently).
i don't exactly know what i'm asking, maybe i just need to get it all out.
thanks.
I've been dating a man for a year and 1/2. He's 13 years sober in AA. Through my own personal combination of experiences, I really haven't dated
all that extensively (though Im in my thirties). What I am questioning is whether some of the traits he exhibits are part of being a recovering alcoholic, or if they are him (i know, he IS the alcoholic). I am trying to figure out how to address issues with him. For instance, our time spent together is very regulated - set days of the week, no spontaneity. He rarely, if ever calls me. Our 'conversations', unless we're together, are limited to emailing. All plans feel like they have to be made through email. He has set meetings he goes to, and I want to support him unreservedly, but sometimes I really feel out of the loop. Like he can't go to a different meeting and have a visit with me. It's all very rigid. And it feels difficult to talk about because of the territory - he's spending the time at meetings after all, and he needs to be able to do that. Now, he's absolutely not secretly married or seeing someone else - he's far too committed to the program for that nonsense. i just have never dated someone who in some ways seems
rather uninterested in, well, me, while at the same time he's making plans for the future (none of which involve seeing or calling me more frequently).
i don't exactly know what i'm asking, maybe i just need to get it all out.
thanks.
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Hugs to you ((( stripe ))) (that's what those brackets mean)
And congratulations for having the courage to face this. Relationship stuff is tough.
I know that when I first started to have thoughts like yours, and sought help & support, I blamed much on the alcohol & alcoholism.
But in my case, what it came down to was that I was not getting what I wanted & needed out of the relationship. Alcohol or not, there were things going on that I didn't want for myself. Sounds like that may be the case for you too.
Your relationship sounds like it doesn't fit you. It is tight in all the wrong places, a little bit itchy, and you don't feel secure in it. Have you ever thought about working with a counselor (even just a few sessions) to talk through what you feel? With little relationship experience to go on, you may be fumbling in the dark a bit about what's "normal" and what your boundaries and dealbreakers are in relationships. A counselor might be able to help you sort that out -- think of it as an auto mechanic for your heart
Hoping that you will continue to post here - lots of nice folks here - and that you'll start to use things like counseling, journaling, reading (like the book "Codependent No More," which many of us have read) and other tools to create the life you want.
You can't change him or his style, but you can change your life if you feel your needs aren't being met.
Welcome!!
And congratulations for having the courage to face this. Relationship stuff is tough.
I know that when I first started to have thoughts like yours, and sought help & support, I blamed much on the alcohol & alcoholism.
But in my case, what it came down to was that I was not getting what I wanted & needed out of the relationship. Alcohol or not, there were things going on that I didn't want for myself. Sounds like that may be the case for you too.
Your relationship sounds like it doesn't fit you. It is tight in all the wrong places, a little bit itchy, and you don't feel secure in it. Have you ever thought about working with a counselor (even just a few sessions) to talk through what you feel? With little relationship experience to go on, you may be fumbling in the dark a bit about what's "normal" and what your boundaries and dealbreakers are in relationships. A counselor might be able to help you sort that out -- think of it as an auto mechanic for your heart
Hoping that you will continue to post here - lots of nice folks here - and that you'll start to use things like counseling, journaling, reading (like the book "Codependent No More," which many of us have read) and other tools to create the life you want.
You can't change him or his style, but you can change your life if you feel your needs aren't being met.
Welcome!!
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Oh wow! I used to date a guy like that, many, many years ago. Everything was scheduled. While at his house one day, I saw his Things to Do board and on our regular dates he had my name. Mondays were for ironing. Tuesdays were for something else. Wednesdays for something else...yada, yada, yada. I told him I didn't appreciate being a "Thing to Do" and it wasn't very long before I told him I didn't want to see him anymore. Having plans is one thing, but this was something else entirely. ugh.
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Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
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While going slow is a very good thing in the beginning of a relationship--especially for recovering addicts who may have a history of being compulsive about things that bring them pleasure--after a year and a half of dating, it seems to me you'd be reaching a point of easy give and take and a feeling of being an integral part of each other's routine lives.
As they say, "When in doubt, communicate." Have you asked him to talk with you about any of these concerns? A relationship either grows stronger and deeper over time....or it becomes weaker and superficial. If you feel it isn't deepening, now would be a good time to talk about how it's working for you both.
Even with 13 years in the program he may still have difficulty with intimacy and communication. The program addresses the relationship with the drug, but the broader issues of life--particularly intimacy--are usually addressed in therapy. Has he had any?
Welcome. And happy you found us!
As they say, "When in doubt, communicate." Have you asked him to talk with you about any of these concerns? A relationship either grows stronger and deeper over time....or it becomes weaker and superficial. If you feel it isn't deepening, now would be a good time to talk about how it's working for you both.
Even with 13 years in the program he may still have difficulty with intimacy and communication. The program addresses the relationship with the drug, but the broader issues of life--particularly intimacy--are usually addressed in therapy. Has he had any?
Welcome. And happy you found us!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
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This is amazing. feedback. thank you all so much, already.
'give love'- i am just starting to be open to the idea that the 'fit' is not right for me.
usually busy blaming myself for things being off - i do have some rather killer pms . . .
(with a smile) but yes, this is part of what i'm trying to sort out. i've never dated anyone in recovery, or
anyone that had any sort of substance abuse issues for that matter. i'm trying to learn.
i did recently start therapy - have wanted to for so very many years. only a few weeks in, but i am determined
to finish out my thirties on the path i want to continue on.
'blue jay' - i've had bits (tiny fluttering) bits of dialogue with him about this. it is
so hard to ask to have needs met, isn't it? especially when they seem (for me) to be things that are quite undemanding and 'normal'.
and it does feel like intimacy issues - maybe both his and mine butting heads. he
had a very small stint in therapy, but seems more interested in adding more
meetings rather than starting up with a therapist again.
does anyone have book suggestions?
again, thank you all for making me feel welcome.
xo
'give love'- i am just starting to be open to the idea that the 'fit' is not right for me.
usually busy blaming myself for things being off - i do have some rather killer pms . . .
(with a smile) but yes, this is part of what i'm trying to sort out. i've never dated anyone in recovery, or
anyone that had any sort of substance abuse issues for that matter. i'm trying to learn.
i did recently start therapy - have wanted to for so very many years. only a few weeks in, but i am determined
to finish out my thirties on the path i want to continue on.
'blue jay' - i've had bits (tiny fluttering) bits of dialogue with him about this. it is
so hard to ask to have needs met, isn't it? especially when they seem (for me) to be things that are quite undemanding and 'normal'.
and it does feel like intimacy issues - maybe both his and mine butting heads. he
had a very small stint in therapy, but seems more interested in adding more
meetings rather than starting up with a therapist again.
does anyone have book suggestions?
again, thank you all for making me feel welcome.
xo
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: cottondale,al35453
Posts: 64
I am old school aa so I dont believe in recovering alcoholics youur disease cintinues its progressing even though you cease drinking. What you have to ask yourself is whether he can remain sober and be a loving thoughtful man ? *Is he working the 12 steps with you and himself. Is he 12 steping with others to help himself to be a better man or is he half stepping and not aware of your feelings. Finding true love with an alcoholic is very difficult,you might want to be more vooacl about him working the 12 steps with you or find someone else. God only gives what we can endure.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
I would like to state the following is speculation based on experience and the small bit of information contained in your post.
It's not alcoholism, although quite a few sober alcoholics are wound a bit tight and rigid like this fellow. Personally, my friends that show these traits get teased mercilessly and called "control freaks" and "@nal" when they display characteristics like this. ( laughter and "hazing" are used as a tool in AA quite often among one's "support group", as long as it's done with love, it's funny because it's similar to how primitive tribes govern themselves, since both are "pure" anarchy's )
I mean it's said frequently by sober alcoholics that alcohol wasn't the problem, alcohol was the solution that became the problem, in his case I can see how this would be true.
He drank to relax. He drank to take the rigid out of his brain, he drank to be able to be spontaneous.
So It's related to his alcoholism but not the "fault" of his alcoholism if that makes sense.
I dated a girl who had a bit of this, I mentioned after our first date I would like to schedule "some spontaneity time" not this Sunday (because she was busy), but the following Sunday from noon till 4 so we could go "be a little dangerous" and maybe like.....do something unscheduled.
She didn't talk to me for two months after that comment.
Have you considered couples counseling? I have had a bit of luck in the past with it, with this very issue actually (remember that girl that was mad at me? we ended up dating for many years) and truly what I've learned about myself (and the other person) has never been less then amazing. Since he is "in recovery" he may be willing to give it a try, if you schedule it well beforehand in a time slot that works for him.
The girl I was seeing was able to navigate this with a great deal of humor and flexibility in therapy, so it worked for us. Personally I need some flexibility and a great deal of humor in my relationships.
You may find compromise, or you may find you want someone more flexible in your life, therapy's a bit like a box of chocolates I have to say, although you never know what you are going to find out about yourself is the small difference between therapy and life.
It's not alcoholism, although quite a few sober alcoholics are wound a bit tight and rigid like this fellow. Personally, my friends that show these traits get teased mercilessly and called "control freaks" and "@nal" when they display characteristics like this. ( laughter and "hazing" are used as a tool in AA quite often among one's "support group", as long as it's done with love, it's funny because it's similar to how primitive tribes govern themselves, since both are "pure" anarchy's )
I mean it's said frequently by sober alcoholics that alcohol wasn't the problem, alcohol was the solution that became the problem, in his case I can see how this would be true.
He drank to relax. He drank to take the rigid out of his brain, he drank to be able to be spontaneous.
So It's related to his alcoholism but not the "fault" of his alcoholism if that makes sense.
I dated a girl who had a bit of this, I mentioned after our first date I would like to schedule "some spontaneity time" not this Sunday (because she was busy), but the following Sunday from noon till 4 so we could go "be a little dangerous" and maybe like.....do something unscheduled.
She didn't talk to me for two months after that comment.
Have you considered couples counseling? I have had a bit of luck in the past with it, with this very issue actually (remember that girl that was mad at me? we ended up dating for many years) and truly what I've learned about myself (and the other person) has never been less then amazing. Since he is "in recovery" he may be willing to give it a try, if you schedule it well beforehand in a time slot that works for him.
The girl I was seeing was able to navigate this with a great deal of humor and flexibility in therapy, so it worked for us. Personally I need some flexibility and a great deal of humor in my relationships.
You may find compromise, or you may find you want someone more flexible in your life, therapy's a bit like a box of chocolates I have to say, although you never know what you are going to find out about yourself is the small difference between therapy and life.
Last edited by Ago; 05-15-2009 at 08:31 PM.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
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You said you usually blame yourself for things being a bit off. I'd like to suggest "Codependent No More" by Melody Beatty. It's a good starter book and really opened up my eyes to a lot of my behaviors/attitudes that I didn't even realize were codependent for a long time. Since you're already in therapy, it might make a nice supplement to the therapy.
I hope you continue to post, and know that you are among friends! :ghug :ghug
I hope you continue to post, and know that you are among friends! :ghug :ghug
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is that some addicts switch addictions, and becoming addicted to the "system" of AA is not all that uncommon.
Some recovering alkies just switch their coping from drinking, to clinging inflexibly to their AA routines.
A mentally healthy person shows a clear ability to prioritize, to be flexible, to have empathy and show sympathy, and to balance giving with receiving in interactions with other people.
An active addict tends to cling to their coping mechanism, be self-centered, have basically only ONE priority which is whatever their coping escape currently is (a substance such as drug or alcohol, a behavior such as gambling or porn watching, a system such as AA routines and/or other obsessive compulsive routines, etc.), show flexibility ONLY toward getting their coping "fix" and extreme inflexibility with anything that interferes with access to their coping "fix."
This is not to imply that there is anything wrong with the AA system, but rather the way it is used. It can be mis-used just like a drug. It is also not to imply that the 12 step system is obsessive compulsive, when used properly. A person growing well in 12 step recovery actually becomes more fluid and more flexible over time.
CLMI
Some recovering alkies just switch their coping from drinking, to clinging inflexibly to their AA routines.
A mentally healthy person shows a clear ability to prioritize, to be flexible, to have empathy and show sympathy, and to balance giving with receiving in interactions with other people.
An active addict tends to cling to their coping mechanism, be self-centered, have basically only ONE priority which is whatever their coping escape currently is (a substance such as drug or alcohol, a behavior such as gambling or porn watching, a system such as AA routines and/or other obsessive compulsive routines, etc.), show flexibility ONLY toward getting their coping "fix" and extreme inflexibility with anything that interferes with access to their coping "fix."
This is not to imply that there is anything wrong with the AA system, but rather the way it is used. It can be mis-used just like a drug. It is also not to imply that the 12 step system is obsessive compulsive, when used properly. A person growing well in 12 step recovery actually becomes more fluid and more flexible over time.
CLMI
Thriving sober since 12/18/08
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,115
I agree with Give .. sounds like an off match for you.
I also dated a guy with rigid schedules around his personal life. But he wasn't an alcoholic, or an addict.. he was just like that. Eventually I got tired of being second, and seriously now that I look back.. how could I have ever really meshed my life with his? Yikes. I'm so not like that! Sounds like you aren't either.
I think it's just the way he is.
In recovery I have certainly seen that if you take away what a lot of people here call a "disease", people are just sometimes still jerks, ill suited for relationships, or otherwise unfit to meld into your life. Ya know? The 'disease' is an easy answer to most things, but often the wrong direction to point. Just my .02
I also dated a guy with rigid schedules around his personal life. But he wasn't an alcoholic, or an addict.. he was just like that. Eventually I got tired of being second, and seriously now that I look back.. how could I have ever really meshed my life with his? Yikes. I'm so not like that! Sounds like you aren't either.
I think it's just the way he is.
In recovery I have certainly seen that if you take away what a lot of people here call a "disease", people are just sometimes still jerks, ill suited for relationships, or otherwise unfit to meld into your life. Ya know? The 'disease' is an easy answer to most things, but often the wrong direction to point. Just my .02
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
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Whatever the reason, can you accept him and be in a relationship with him just as he is, right now, today?
For me that's always the question. I no longer bank on people changing, or assume that if I just knew why people did what they did it would make some kind of difference in my gut reactions...When people show me who they are, I believe them, if I choose not to, or think I can change them, it's at MY peril!
peace and welcome to SR!
B
For me that's always the question. I no longer bank on people changing, or assume that if I just knew why people did what they did it would make some kind of difference in my gut reactions...When people show me who they are, I believe them, if I choose not to, or think I can change them, it's at MY peril!
peace and welcome to SR!
B
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Just a thought to add to the stew pot: Relationships are about compatibility, imho, and I have known at least one couple where both partners were like your BF - everything scheduled, structured, rigid, and clean. They checked their daytimers to schedule dinner out, never a pen or a paper clip out of place. They seemed very, very happy together.
I have one other set of friends who can't plan anything that's more than an hour away, because they can't stand to be pinned down. Same thing...they love each other and it works for them.
I would last about seventeen minutes in either relationship before I went cuckoo-bananas, but some people find a lot of comfort in those extremes.... It's the incompatibility that can make us so unhappy.
I have one other set of friends who can't plan anything that's more than an hour away, because they can't stand to be pinned down. Same thing...they love each other and it works for them.
I would last about seventeen minutes in either relationship before I went cuckoo-bananas, but some people find a lot of comfort in those extremes.... It's the incompatibility that can make us so unhappy.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Orlando Florida
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Relationships between people begin and end all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with addiction. If he is 13 years sober I doubt this has anything to do with Alcoholism or recovery. If those elements weren't there you would still have the same issues. A proper recovery will always have to take top billing over everything else because without it, everything else will quickly be destroyed. Everything.
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You say you have brought up talking about these things with him in little "fluttering" bits. This makes me wonder if you are afraid to talk to him because you are afraid of his reaction. And that makes me think you are receiving signals unconsciously from him that your needs are not important and if you dare to assert those needs or ask for anything yourself, that you will either be chastized, minimized, or rejected.
If you are walking on these sorts of eggshells, you are not in a safe relationship AT ALL.
The litmus test about him will be gauging his response when you are brave enough to be yourself with him as you are being yourself here with us.
We are here if you need us. You might.
If you are walking on these sorts of eggshells, you are not in a safe relationship AT ALL.
The litmus test about him will be gauging his response when you are brave enough to be yourself with him as you are being yourself here with us.
We are here if you need us. You might.
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I have attended MANY MANY open AA meetings and met many in recovery. Some have become great friends. Some are great people. I am told that if they had problems pre addiction, simply getting sober will not fix those problems.
13 years is quite a long time and at least the toxic effects of continued alcohol have been removed from the equation.
Why not simply ask him if has always been a jerk or did it happen when the booze started. Many use AA to recover then go on to lead normal lives losing the need to attend further meetings. I have known such people personally.
Lastly, whatever the cause for his behavior the question you really need to answer is if you can live with it.
13 years is quite a long time and at least the toxic effects of continued alcohol have been removed from the equation.
Why not simply ask him if has always been a jerk or did it happen when the booze started. Many use AA to recover then go on to lead normal lives losing the need to attend further meetings. I have known such people personally.
Lastly, whatever the cause for his behavior the question you really need to answer is if you can live with it.
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