GiveLove

mle, I'm ashamed to say this, because it can't be funny to kimmie, but this made choke on my coffee I was laughing so hard. Especially coming from a recovering A. (GL wipes her eyes)

kimmie, you've gotta get your sanctuary back. THAT'S what keeps you sane, not staying in your ABF's good graces by bailing him out. First things first: get your safe, serene home back, THEN worry about helping him overcome his lousy choices.

Sending you big hugs to get through this and reclaim your turf (without needing to pee on it, hopefully)

tallulah

No. It means she can stop beating herself up for being human and caring and allowing him a chance. If she must beat herself up for being 'so stupid that it is almost making me laugh' do it if she is still allowing him to pee in her bin in a *year's time.

*this being an arbitrary, plucked out of the air, unit of time... insert your own if you wish.

Still Waters

I wish. They can disagree that the sky is blue.

"Pee? I didn't pee in the trash can, are you insane? Have you totally lost it? I can't believe you'd try to spread such silly rumors about me, you're such a loser."

Etc.

mle-sober

True. But it's not like you need agreement from a thief in order to protect yourself. If you wait for them to agree that they're doing you wrong, you'll never get anywhere. Who cares if he acknowledges his drunken stupidity? I think that's one of the greatest lessons when dealing with codependance and alcoholics - the active alcoholic is always, ONLY on his/her side. Attempting to negotiate differences is ludicrus. Stop trying to find common ground and agreement. Stop waiting for the active alcoholic to agree to recognize your needs. Start protecting yourself.

Still Waters

mle - I was replying to:

The alcoholic WILL argue about it, you agree with that. So from what I understand, from what you're saying - why bother telling them the boundaries?

Barbara52

I don't necessarily tell anyone what my boundaries are. I mean, they are for me, spell out what behaviors I find unacceptable and what I will do if they happen. It doesn't matter who engages in the unacceptable behavior. And the person is free to continue the behavior I find unacceptable just not with me around.

For instance, I will not be around people who speak to me in an abusive manner. It doesn't matter who they are, whether they are drunk or sober. If someone starts speaking to me in an abusive way, I end the conversation and leave that person's presence. I might say something about "I will not listen to you if you speak to me that way" but that would be it and I might not say even that much depending on the circumstances and who it is.

When I was still living with xAH I set bondaries (although I had no idea that was what I was doing) but never expressed them to xAH. For example, I wouldn't be around him when he was drunk. When he was drunk (daily), I stayed in another part of the house and avoided him. It never changed his behavior but then that wasn't the purpose.

Now that I am out of that madness, my boundaries don't need to be spelled out to anyone since the vast majority of them are based on common definitions of acceptable behavior. I don't need to tell someone I find it intolerable for them to fart in my face and if they do it I will leave. That is a given for most people. But that is an example of a boundary, one that I don't have to verbalize to anyone.

mle-sober

I guess it depends on the boundary and the situation. It seems like many people have a hard time asserting their boundary in part, due to the fact that they are unable to convince themselves that it is a fair boundary. They seem to do a lot of over-thinking. Like is this mean? Am I being unfair? Have I given him sufficient chance to improve? Am I making him homeless and is he suffering because of me?

When the questions they need to be asking themselves are WHAT DO I NEED? Sometimes, the answer to that is obvious and doesn't need to be stated (ie: no farting in my face, no peeing or puking anywhere in my house besides the toilet.) Other times, the answer is more subtle and might need to be stated - both for the one making the statement and the one being told (ie: I will no longer pay your bills, I will no longer take your calls, I am changing the locks to the house).

Ago

True.....BUT.....

Can you see him down at the local watering hole..."man, my GF is SUCH a b1tch, she won't let me stay with her until I stop peeing in the trash can or wetting the bed!!!"

He'd get no takers or backers in the diviest of dive bars...sorry

I mean, I am a male alcoholic, I can put lipstick on a pig and sell it in a Muslim deli, and I wouldn't be able to "pretty up" that one.

Add ANYTHING and it becomes subject to negotiation, but "Sorry, you can't come in until you are potty trained. This is not subject to negotiation." will work.

But what you say is true....uncannily true

GiveLove

Yes, but you know he'd never say that, Andrew. Most alcoholics - and many non-alcoholics! - will make up whatever story is necessary to gain sympathy when they feel they need sympathy. My ex told everyone that I had "turned into a b*tch" and "lied to him".....and they all nodded and patted his back and bought him beers. He forgot to mention the peeing, the cheating, the bankruptcy, the lies.

I'm sorry to generalize, but, for the most part: active alcoholics lie.

Ago

Don't be sorry to generalize, it's generally the truth, but generally the "modus operendi" is evasion, distortion, manipulation, omission, and manipulation.

The blatent baldfaced lie occurs less frequently.

The reason for that is, is Alcoholics lie to everyone else is because they lie to themselves first, they believe "their product" they are selling, because they have already "bought" the "product" themselves.

"baldfaced" lies do occur, but MUCH less frequently

Also, having sponsored my share of alcoholics, I guarantee he will "hear" that.

I promise.

I don't know if it will do any good, but he WILL hear it, and no amount of squirming will let it out of his mind.

There is just no "putting a spin" on it, even in the sickest of brains.

"I can't stay because I wet the bed/pee in the garbage can"

Trust me on this one, I sponsor these people, and have had some pretty blunt declarations at some doors my own self, you NEVER forget them.

ever.

Add anything and he gets off scot-free in his own mind.

That, by the way, is when alcoholics start telling the truth to others (a little bit) is when the wheels start falling off their own fantasies.

There is a human being under all of that illness, get through to him and amazing things take place.

Make sense?

Still Waters

Yah, it makes sense Ago - but dang I just don't have it in me to wait around for him to get it. It exhausts me even to think about it.

This is an interesting topic for me, as we talk about boundaries, whether they're said out loud, or like Barbara said - just known to ourselves.

I found myself so - well, I don't know how to explain it really.

AH would do whatever crazy thing, and there would need to be an immediate response. Staunching the blood, or picking up the mess. Whatever. Then I'd sit and think, what the heck do I say?? How do I say it? What bizarro reply am I going to get from him? Then he'd go and act like nothing happened. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around what did happen.

I ended up saying absolutely nothing most the time. I was kind of shocked mute.

Does this make any sense? I just didn't know what to say, or how to say it.

I'm not doing a good job here. LOL.

Ago

You are doing a GREAT job, I understand exactly.

This is one of the "cruxes" of codependency, an alcoholic will do exactly "what he can get away with"

This is literally a mathematical equation.

"You can't stay here until you are potty trained, your stuff is in the hall", shut the door in his face, no discussion, no negotiation, and that will NEVER happen again unless you allow it.

Or if you live together, "I won't tolerate this in my life, I am leaving, IF you should decide to make some changes, we can revisit this, but barring that, I am gone."

Givelove had a great example of setting a boundary for dinner, it slips my mind, but it was something like, if she cooked, and they didn't wash the dishes, she didn't cook for a month.

Manipulative people find me blunt and offensive, because I do set and hold boundaries, if I don't presently have "the power" or "the means" at the present to enforce my boundary, I will bend heaven and earth until I can.

I remember saying, "don't mistake kindness for weakness, please, and don't mistake permissiveness for tolerance, if this behavior continues, I will leave.

Then they would be surprised when I left after it happened again.

If you_______, I will_________

It's NOT about "waiting around for "them" to get it, something about a cold day in hell comes to mind here, it's about not allowing certain things in your life no matter what.

You can never not "vote with your feet", if not today, you can start saving money if you live together for example.

It's about your dignity as a human being being non-negotiable.

I used to think integrity was just something to be admired in others, now I find it's almost the important "tool" in my toolbox, because it protects me.

Wascally Wabbit

Well, I've been there too.
Staying too long with someone who was toxic to me and my self worth.
For me, I got worn down each time to the point where if I didn't get out of it, I would surely die of depression. Always feeling sorry for them.

I took a pic of my x passed out on the toilet. I like to look at it every now and then to remind me of what life would be like had I not left.
He totally ruined the house with cigarette burn holes in every square inch of the carpet, furniture, couch, tables, kitchen floor, you name it.
One day I woke up and decided I was worth more than all that.

I know how hard it is to act on our feelings of getting out of the bad relationship. But, never the less, you will do what you need to do when you're ready.

Kimmieh

Thank you all again! My attempt to talk to him was probably half-hearted. I told him about his drunken self the night before and he apologized and felt bad. He asked for a few days until he could arrange for another place. Of course I felt bad and said yes. Last night he came home buzzed and today he was wasted again. To be honest, I was sitting here waiting for him to come home and I was hoping he would be drunk because I needed to know for sure that this is just going to continue unless I (!!) make it stop.

We had a conversation about this. He admitted to being an alcoholic and all that, but he probably won't remember tomorrow. He offered to leave, but I know I would worry myself sick...He is sleeping now. I told him tonight and I will tell him tomorrow that either he goes to in-patient treatment or stays with friends, but he cannot stay here. It has been a week and I am behind with my work, important deadlines are coming up, and this is just too much to handle. I missed a test today because I was too stressed out to study. It's not a big deal and I can probably make it up, but I suppose I had to experience one more time what this stress does to me.

I know he won't give me a hard time, so I really don't have a reason to put this off again. It really needs to STOP! There is an amazing treatment here that will take him in in a heartbeat (he was there two weeks ago after a breakdown). There is NO excuse.

Two funny things: he made himself a sandwich before going to bed and said all of a sudden: "hamsters are really smart. Honestly, hamsters are SMART!" It will be my lunacy reminder slogan from now on.

And the other is that recently my friend sent me a gift and part of it is this little yellow plastic duck. It quacks when you push a little button. It has been on my desk for a while and today I picked it up while having these pointless conversations and made it quack. Only the did I make the connection! My friend does not know about most of this ordeal and she sent me a duck. She is my best friend and I believe she has magical powers. We should all have this duck! It's phenomenal!

PS: Please feel free to continue the discussion - it's very interesting

shotz

You are not stupid. I am sending you good energy. Try to stay in today, if you can help it stay away from the what ifs. They always drive me to distraction. You are ahead of the game because you are not in denial.
shotz:praying

mermaidgirl

A while back, and I mean a while back...I was married to an executive chef and one of the restaurants we owned was a bar/restaurant on a college campus. I remember the stories he used to tell me about people peeing in the corner of the restuarant. I knew some of these people because I attended said college, but amazed me that someone could be [I]so checked out[I] to engage in this behavior. Kimmieh, what helps me get through tough codie decisions such as this is, you aren't helping him by taking him in and allowing this behavior. If you WERE helping him, wouldn't you see improvement? Therefore...I always remind myself that my action to "help" isn't helping at all and I need to get a grip.

chrisea

hopefully you will be able to get him to move on. Change the locks, I couldn't do that, but maybe someone else can. Usually, I was the one to move out, but this time It was my place & he had to go. Take care.

itisatruth

Kimmieh, thank you for this thread ~ I admire your honesty. I wasn't always brave enough to post similar details of the insanity I allowed to go on in my life/home. Also, thank you because it is threads like this that help me to not forget what it was like before I enforced my boundary.

I'd like to add something about boundaries. I had such a hard time with them because I wasn't able to enforce them. I had to hit my bottom before I found my strength to do so. My bottom came in the form of a phone being thrown at me. Yes, I should have gotten to that point long, long ago.


At that point I realized 1) I needed to keep my boundary simple and 2) I felt liberated, even hurting as I was.

So, Kimmie ~ I hope you find your strength to do what you need to do. I feel strongly that you will. You are on your journey and need to find your way. You are worth living in a house without pee anywhere but in the toilet.....and so much more. Hugs ~

Still Waters

I did vote with my feet, and I didn't articulate that boundary to him either. It would have only caused more strife, to do so.

What really chaps my behind about this (and thank you sooo much for understanding what I was trying to say), is he claims my silence is me being "difficult" or "uncommunicative".

But, doesn't matter now. Thank God, it no longer matters except that I never ever ever make those mistakes again.

Kimmieh

I don't know if I can change the locks. I don't know anything anymore, really. But I am glad that this thread can be a little helpful for others.

We had a conversation about treatment on Saturday and he agree that he wanted to quit drinking and pot and talk to the people at the treatment center today (Monday). I came home today and he was not here, but came home shortly after me (had moved his stuff). He had beer with him, then started rolling a joint and said I don't like it and that we have to figure out what to do and how serious he really is about quitting. He thinks he will be fine if he just does not get wasted. So back to square one - I don't know how often I have heard that.

We then proceeded to have an argument, he told me all I do is complain and bitch about him and other people and why I can never be happy. And of course I immediately start to feel he is right. So in essence, apparently I am annoying him most of the time because I bitch too much. It was and is helpful to remember how many of you have posted the same thing here. He left and I told him not to come back. But this is so hard. I don't know if I can do this. On the other hand, how can I stay with someone who just told me that I am annoying all the time? What a mess. We don't have arguments very often and I have a hard time dealing with them.