Counseling VS AA... or Counseling AND AA
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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As a quasi off topic humorous side note, I have to say you (LTD) sound more like an "old school hard line" Sober AAer then about anyone else on the board. If I would have had to guess not knowing a little about you I would have totally pegged you for someone with long term sobriety with tons of experience sponsoring others and working the steps yourself.
Like my friends, all sweetness and light, then smiling sweetly ask, "Do you want my opinion?"
Then it's BIFF!!! POW!!! BLAM!!! like those old Batman episodes with Adam West
By the way, that's about the best compliment I can give, my sponsor doesn't pull punches, neither do my friends, I don't have time for sugar coating BS'ers (read: liars, if they lie to not hurt my feelings, they will lie about other things) in my life, they aint helpful, nor are they real friends.
Further proof to me there are many paths up the mountain, kind of funny, all of the "evolved" folks in my life sound pretty similar, whether they got there via AA, Christianity, Buddhism, Therapy, or just hard won experience reinventing the wheel all on their own.
They sound like you.
:ghug3
Like my friends, all sweetness and light, then smiling sweetly ask, "Do you want my opinion?"
Then it's BIFF!!! POW!!! BLAM!!! like those old Batman episodes with Adam West
By the way, that's about the best compliment I can give, my sponsor doesn't pull punches, neither do my friends, I don't have time for sugar coating BS'ers (read: liars, if they lie to not hurt my feelings, they will lie about other things) in my life, they aint helpful, nor are they real friends.
Further proof to me there are many paths up the mountain, kind of funny, all of the "evolved" folks in my life sound pretty similar, whether they got there via AA, Christianity, Buddhism, Therapy, or just hard won experience reinventing the wheel all on their own.
They sound like you.
:ghug3
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Thats lovely to say Ago! I too really value LTD's up front and honest approach, she tells it like it is and I relish that and grow alot from it!
LTD
Lots a love
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
LTD
Lots a love
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 202
Even though I have been to several therapists and feel that Al-Anon has helped me more than all of them combined in a shorter amount of time, I would never say that somebody should only depend on the program and not a therapist. It even says in one of my Al-Anon books regarding steps 1-3 how important it is to keep an open mind. I interpreted that to mean an open mind to everything 
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baghdad
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Originally Posted by Ago 
I don't agree with his sponsors assertion that Psychiatry is "bunk" but it's a view shared by many in AA since the aggregate of recovery from psychiatry is so low (mainly because A's lie to Psychiatrists, and can't lie to other alcoholics, but that's just my opinion) but what his sponsor said is pretty much "the party line" in AA
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 596
"too much emphasis on the 'why' of alcoholism"
It has been my experience that not enough emphasis on the "why" has been a problem for my AH. Big difference in being dry and being sober.
In my AH's case, I believe being sober might involve more than simply telling himself not to drink. Considering he was raised by an extremely manipulative and abusive mother, who was raised by extremely dysfunctional (drunk) people, I think taking an honest look at how the dysfunction has effected him as an adult, how he thinks, what he believes in, what he finds acceptable and what he would want to do differently for his own offspring so he doesn't continue the abuse could only help.
Recognizing that he responds to her manipulation with guilt/resentment/internalized anger, which serves as a convenient excuse to drink might make him consider rethinking his relationship with her so that he can be more successful in their future dealings.
No, it won't solely be responsible for his decision to stay sober. But it does mean he's pulling his head out of the sand and I believe that will help him not be the dog she'd like him to still believe he is. I think sobriety might come a little easier for people who actually like themselves.
Think of all the self-destructive things people do to themselves from being raised by abusive parents who destroy their self-worth. Cutters, overeaters, bingers, anorexics, drug users, risk-takers, etc. They grow up believing they aren't worthy. Does not eating doughnuts anymore mean their beliefs have changed? Or if they come to realize their mother was a psycho who was projecting her misery onto her small children, who didn't deserve her abuse, a step towards finding ones self-worth. And thus figuring out that they are worthy of more than fulfilling their label of being a loser? Perhaps they might cut themselves some slack and take better care of themselves, and actually put more value on their sobriety rather than just faking it till they make it.
And to the extent that it's none of my business, well it sort of is. I love him and she effects both of us often. Until she's 6 feet under, I don't see how her abuse will ever stop until he learns to put a stop to it.
It has been my experience that not enough emphasis on the "why" has been a problem for my AH. Big difference in being dry and being sober.
In my AH's case, I believe being sober might involve more than simply telling himself not to drink. Considering he was raised by an extremely manipulative and abusive mother, who was raised by extremely dysfunctional (drunk) people, I think taking an honest look at how the dysfunction has effected him as an adult, how he thinks, what he believes in, what he finds acceptable and what he would want to do differently for his own offspring so he doesn't continue the abuse could only help.
Recognizing that he responds to her manipulation with guilt/resentment/internalized anger, which serves as a convenient excuse to drink might make him consider rethinking his relationship with her so that he can be more successful in their future dealings.
No, it won't solely be responsible for his decision to stay sober. But it does mean he's pulling his head out of the sand and I believe that will help him not be the dog she'd like him to still believe he is. I think sobriety might come a little easier for people who actually like themselves.
Think of all the self-destructive things people do to themselves from being raised by abusive parents who destroy their self-worth. Cutters, overeaters, bingers, anorexics, drug users, risk-takers, etc. They grow up believing they aren't worthy. Does not eating doughnuts anymore mean their beliefs have changed? Or if they come to realize their mother was a psycho who was projecting her misery onto her small children, who didn't deserve her abuse, a step towards finding ones self-worth. And thus figuring out that they are worthy of more than fulfilling their label of being a loser? Perhaps they might cut themselves some slack and take better care of themselves, and actually put more value on their sobriety rather than just faking it till they make it.
And to the extent that it's none of my business, well it sort of is. I love him and she effects both of us often. Until she's 6 feet under, I don't see how her abuse will ever stop until he learns to put a stop to it.
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Originally Posted by respektingme
And to the extent that it's none of my business, well it sort of is. I love him and she effects both of us often. Until she's 6 feet under, I don't see how her abuse will ever stop until he learns to put a stop to it.
How about you putting a stop to how she affects you instead of insisting that he do it?
L
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 596
LaTeeDa,
Somehow I feel defensive after reading your responses. Seems you read an excess into my posts. My AH isn't drinking. He sought the counseling. And I have spent 48 hours at my mother-in-law's house (4 hours away) in the past 15 months. That's quite an improvement to the number of visits we made there in the past. I don't respond to her emails (she stopped long ago with that realization), I don't have conversations with her about anything deeper than paint color, and I don't speak to her over the phone. I would assume, since my DH willingly went to therapy, that he is capable of concluding his mother's abuse has some effects on him and our marrige. He's not a complete moron.
I didn't force him to delve deep into his mother issues. I simply made my choice. My choice is to have nothing to do with her until/unless he learns how to set limits so that she can't yank my chain at her will. That was my choice. So no, it is not nearly as easy for her to rock my world as it used to be.
The realization about his mother is a great thing. I hope he keeps it up. Should he decide ultimately that she was perfect and wants to continue believing she's a saint, that is up to him. And I simply won't grace her doorstep ever again. I think that's pretty much taking control of my own choices.
Somehow I feel defensive after reading your responses. Seems you read an excess into my posts. My AH isn't drinking. He sought the counseling. And I have spent 48 hours at my mother-in-law's house (4 hours away) in the past 15 months. That's quite an improvement to the number of visits we made there in the past. I don't respond to her emails (she stopped long ago with that realization), I don't have conversations with her about anything deeper than paint color, and I don't speak to her over the phone. I would assume, since my DH willingly went to therapy, that he is capable of concluding his mother's abuse has some effects on him and our marrige. He's not a complete moron.
I didn't force him to delve deep into his mother issues. I simply made my choice. My choice is to have nothing to do with her until/unless he learns how to set limits so that she can't yank my chain at her will. That was my choice. So no, it is not nearly as easy for her to rock my world as it used to be.
The realization about his mother is a great thing. I hope he keeps it up. Should he decide ultimately that she was perfect and wants to continue believing she's a saint, that is up to him. And I simply won't grace her doorstep ever again. I think that's pretty much taking control of my own choices.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
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Originally Posted by respektingme
In my AH's case, I believe being sober might involve more than simply telling himself not to drink. Considering he was raised by an extremely manipulative and abusive mother, who was raised by extremely dysfunctional (drunk) people, I think taking an honest look at how the dysfunction has effected him as an adult, how he thinks, what he believes in, what he finds acceptable and what he would want to do differently for his own offspring so he doesn't continue the abuse could only help.
Then I begin to work on those attitudes/behaviors that no longer serve me well now that I am in recovery.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
I dropped a gal the beginning of this week because she decided she wants to do things her way, which ultimately led to her almost drinking herself to death last week. Insanity = repeating the same things over and over and expecting different results.
I can't sponsor someone not willing to do the work, no?
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I'm sorry you feel defensive. I was only responding to what I read in this thread which is all about his problems, his relationship with his mother, and what you think he should do about it. I understand. I spent nearly 20 years all wrapped up in my husband and his problems. My inlaws were (still are) whacked out, too. But all that energy, rumination, and angst did nothing to make my life any better.
The only thing that made my life any better was to let go. To admit that I was powerless over him, his parents, his buddies, his siblings--all of them. To back off and let them make their choices. To dive head first into me, my issues, my feelings, my behaviors, my beliefs, and what I could do about them.
I just can't read post after post about the A without at least attempting to redirect the focus. That's because I've learned that the only way to peace is to take the focus off others and put it on me.
I hope you find whatever you're looking for.
L
The only thing that made my life any better was to let go. To admit that I was powerless over him, his parents, his buddies, his siblings--all of them. To back off and let them make their choices. To dive head first into me, my issues, my feelings, my behaviors, my beliefs, and what I could do about them.
I just can't read post after post about the A without at least attempting to redirect the focus. That's because I've learned that the only way to peace is to take the focus off others and put it on me.
I hope you find whatever you're looking for.
L
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
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It has been my experience that not enough emphasis on the "why" has been a problem for my AH. Big difference in being dry and being sober.
I "like" you, I get a good "hit" off of you, but you are too smart for your own good. No one has ever failed to recover by being too stupid, but quite a few of us fail because we are too smart. I have extensive experience with my intelligence being my biggest impediment to my recovery.
In order to achieve recovery in a twelve step program, you have to work your "own" program, not someone else's, that includes your husbands.
Why not allow the possibility to be "open" to solutions other then your own?
Try looking at LTD's last post with fresh eyes. She was dead on.
And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation—some fact of my life — unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God’s world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life’s terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.
Shakespeare said, “All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players.” He forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out, because I knew you wanted perfection, just as I did. A.A. and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of good in the worst of us and a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we each have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about God’s handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.
Shakespeare said, “All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players.” He forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out, because I knew you wanted perfection, just as I did. A.A. and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of good in the worst of us and a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we each have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about God’s handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.
You are the one treating him like the designated patient, by assuming you know what's best for him. Of course it's for "what's best for him" and you are being gentle. It's still poison you are feeding him and yourself with the designated patient dynamic.
He may smile and nod and allow it, but trust me, that WILL come out, if he stays sober.
A humorous bit from the AA 12 step forum:
Originally Posted by nandm
Twelve Ways To Tell The Difference Between Your Sponsor And Your Therapist.
1. Your sponsor isn't all that interested in the "reasons" you drank.
2. Your therapist thinks your root problem is your lack of self-esteem, negative self-image,and your poor self-concept. Your sponsor thinks your problem is a 3-letter word with no hyphens (YOU).
3. Your therapist wants you to pamper your "inner child." Your sponsor thinks it ought to get a job.
4. Your sponsor thinks your inventory should be about you, not your parents.
5. Speaking of your parents, your sponsor tells you not to confront them, but to make amends to them.
6. The only time your sponsor uses the word "closure" is before the word "mouth."
7. Your sponsor thinks "boundaries" are things you need to take down not build up.
8. Your therapist wants you to love yourself first; your sponsor wants you to love others first.
9. Your therapist prescribes caretaking and medication. Your sponsor prescribes prayer making and meditation.
10. Your sponsor thinks "anger management skills" are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.
11. Now that you haven't had a drink in six months, your therapist thinks you should make a list of your goals and objectives for the next five years, starting with finishing up that college degree. Your sponsor thinks you should start today by cleaning the coffeepots, helping her carry a heavy box of literature to the jail, and making your bed.
12. Your sponsor won't lose his license to practice if he talks about God.
1. Your sponsor isn't all that interested in the "reasons" you drank.
2. Your therapist thinks your root problem is your lack of self-esteem, negative self-image,and your poor self-concept. Your sponsor thinks your problem is a 3-letter word with no hyphens (YOU).
3. Your therapist wants you to pamper your "inner child." Your sponsor thinks it ought to get a job.
4. Your sponsor thinks your inventory should be about you, not your parents.
5. Speaking of your parents, your sponsor tells you not to confront them, but to make amends to them.
6. The only time your sponsor uses the word "closure" is before the word "mouth."
7. Your sponsor thinks "boundaries" are things you need to take down not build up.
8. Your therapist wants you to love yourself first; your sponsor wants you to love others first.
9. Your therapist prescribes caretaking and medication. Your sponsor prescribes prayer making and meditation.
10. Your sponsor thinks "anger management skills" are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.
11. Now that you haven't had a drink in six months, your therapist thinks you should make a list of your goals and objectives for the next five years, starting with finishing up that college degree. Your sponsor thinks you should start today by cleaning the coffeepots, helping her carry a heavy box of literature to the jail, and making your bed.
12. Your sponsor won't lose his license to practice if he talks about God.
That approach works with "Alpha Males" when nothing else does.
An Alpha Male alcoholic will walk through the doors of AA knowing everything in the whole world....except how to get sober, although he will of course "know it all" about that too.
It's one of the characteristics of alcoholism, to know everything.
A therapist won't be blunt enough with your husband with some issues, because your husband will just walk out.
Sponsors don't care if you walk out. AA is the last house on the last street, and it works.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 596
I want this thread to end. The reason I wrote the post was to get some opinions from experienced AA-ers on their opinion of AA in addition to counseling. I don't go to AA. I only know what my AH's husband advises him because my AH tells me. I didn't suggest that my AH and I go to counseling together, HE did. And all is really well right now. In fact, our marriage is healing and better than it's probably ever been.
And forgive me for having anything critical at all to say about any of the responses I received (and I already know the flack I'll get for even saying it, because I've seen it multiple times before), but I think some of you have a real NEED to be RIGHT. Doesn't seem like a complete transformation out of codependency to me. Adios.
And forgive me for having anything critical at all to say about any of the responses I received (and I already know the flack I'll get for even saying it, because I've seen it multiple times before), but I think some of you have a real NEED to be RIGHT. Doesn't seem like a complete transformation out of codependency to me. Adios.
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Milton, WI
Posts: 105
respektingme,
As I read through your post, I am questioning the story, not his but yours.
Where are you telling a story about your mother in law affecting you having power to make you feel something? How do you feel when you retell and think this story about your mother in law? What would it be like for you to set it down and simply be present and open to see her as God child. The big book speaks about Nothing absolutely nothing happens in Gods world on accident. What if she is exactly the way she is because that is her path, and it is NO accident. What gifts does she bring to you and your husband? How can you grow to love her exactly as she is? How can this bring you closer to your higher power?
Much love and light!~Cheryl
As I read through your post, I am questioning the story, not his but yours.
Where are you telling a story about your mother in law affecting you having power to make you feel something? How do you feel when you retell and think this story about your mother in law? What would it be like for you to set it down and simply be present and open to see her as God child. The big book speaks about Nothing absolutely nothing happens in Gods world on accident. What if she is exactly the way she is because that is her path, and it is NO accident. What gifts does she bring to you and your husband? How can you grow to love her exactly as she is? How can this bring you closer to your higher power?
Much love and light!~Cheryl
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
I only share from my own experience and what worked for me. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. I relate to your experience because I see in your posts a need to control others. If I am misinterpreting that, then I am sorry. As I said before, I hope you find what you are looking for.
Peace,
L
Peace,
L
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Originally Posted by respektingme
...The reason I wrote the post was to get some opinions from experienced AA-ers on their opinion of AA in addition to counseling..
Communicating on a site like this is tricky, people can only react to the information in the post, so if people misread and misinterpret, then it maybe that more detail is needed or to come at the issue from a different angle.
And forgive me for having anything critical at all to say about any of the responses I received (and I already know the flack I'll get for even saying it, because I've seen it multiple times before), but I think some of you have a real NEED to be RIGHT. Doesn't seem like a complete transformation out of codependency to me. Adios.
for someone who asks for respect in their name you don't give much out do you?!Again, all I have read here is people sharing their es&h, I don't read anyone as 'needing to be right', I only see an exchange of ideas. In my opinion the only person who has come across in this thread as wanting their view point to be confirmed and substantiated (i.e. wanting to be told they are right) seems to be you Respekt. For me, I only ask the opinions of other people when I am open to actually hearing them and I have to be prepared to take what I want and leave the rest and to accept that I might not like/agree with what is put back to me.
Heck, that is recovery from my view point! I need to have my inherently learnt thoughts/ideas/mantras (etc etc) addressed and challenged as they have obviously not been doing me the service I need for the last -- years! If I go into every situation thinking 'I'm alright Jack, it's you who has the problem' my learning curve is going to be stunted and I won't grow; therefore my issues will just keep coming back around the round-a-bout till I learn.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Last edited by DesertEyes; 04-10-2009 at 10:22 PM. Reason: fixed broken quote
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 184
Respektingme...Congrats on your AH and his progress in sobriety. Not many people can claim the resolve to stay and fight the fight with positive results. I admire your strength and compassion. Good luck always! As for the rest...some things never change...you are still in my prayers.
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