Kimmieh

That's a great post, GiveLove (as always)! And I hear ya about the flies and the stuffed animals...

GiveLove

I try hard nowadays to live my life differently. Specifically, whenever I do things "for" people or give things to people, I try to make sure my motivations are 100% clear, and it passes this test: If this person were to be ungrateful or dump me or treat me poorly, would I still feel okay about my decision to do it?

Or put another way, am I doing it for ME, or am I doing it to get some kind of product in exchange for it? Undying devotion, protection, approval, acceptance, fidelity, etc.?

If I give away my time, money, and possessions it's now because I honestly feel it strengthens and pleases me - emotionally, spiritually - and it's what I honestly want to do. Regrets and revenge aren't possible when you're not betting on getting anything in return (not even love). I can highly recommend it to anyone who wants to feel truly free and strong.

But man, it did take a long time, lots of practice, and a lot of bumps and bruises along the way to get to this spot, so I surely do "get" what dreamer's original post meant. :ghug

Ago

Thanks Givelove, spot on as always

Anyhow, The point I was trying to make is FOR ME festering resentment IS it's own consequence

I truly understand angry and am not judging anyone for it, everything I write is FOR ME

The main point for me is I don't want it in my life any more nor directed at me for any extended period of time.

Life is just too long to just fester in resentment FOR ME

Thr truth is I think this is a great thread, not because of the similarities, but because of the differences, I learned a great deal about my thought process and other points of view.

GiveLove

I agree totally. And I love this thread -- imagine, here are a bunch of very different people disagreeing on something pretty darned big, y'know?, but we're still all growing a little bit by seeing each others' perspective. That's why I love SR so much.

Ago

This thread really made me think.

When I was "stuck" living on my families land, working for my mother, being manipulated and lied to by my family I was calling my friends pretty frequently, I would b1tch, finger point and blame, and my friends (who are all in recovery) would keep trying to point out solution, I wouldn't listen, just kept blaming them, my friends got to the point where a few of them were yelling AT ME!!! I was like WTF!!!! Can't you see what they are doing to me? finally some started limiting contact with me.

I was "stuck" though, stuck emotionally, financially, I was broke and geographically isolated.

It took a HUGE leap of faith to leave, and after a few months my emotions started calming back down.

It wasn't until well after I left and started reworking the steps, and I came across step three that the light came on, I understood what everyone had been trying to explain to, that I did have the power to be happy, or unhappy, angry and miserable, or happy, joyous and free, the choice was mine, and I had made the choice to be unhappy.

It didn't seem like it when I was there, and it took a considerable amount of work and hindsight, but I had made a choice.

Then I made another one.

One that lead to a better life, one that wasn't so full of anger and hate, one where I wasn't such a victim, one where I took personal responsibility for my choices and happiness.

It took some doing, it was simple, but not easy.

If I were to come on here telling battered women jokes, or some story about somebody slapping their wife/GF around I would expect anyone who was ever a victim of domestic violence to be triggered, If I tried to defend it by saying, well I'm talking about batting a specific person around, not you, I am just thinking about slapping her around, not actually hitting her.

This would absolutely trigger a women who has been physically abused, regardless of whether I hit someone or not.

As a man, obviously I was not physically abused, but I was totally emotionally abused, she felt "men bashing" and specifically "me bashing" was perfectly acceptable behavior, so when I see "men bashing" go on here I get pretty upset, good or bad, that's my reaction, I get triggered by people saying harmful, hateful, and spiteful things about their spouses/bf's/gf's and Ex'es

It's neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, it's my reaction because of my experience, but I view "men bashing" as abusive, I really do, since I was the subject of it for so long.



What I meant by "reap what you sow" was if I am resentful and spiteful, all I end up doing is beating myself with the club of anger and indignation I pull out to hurt others with, once again, it's like drinking poison and hoping "they" die, it only harms me, or hitting myself in the head with a hammer and saying "take that, uh huh, what do you think now?"

My "just thoughts" are absolutely harmful to me.

Anyhow, once again, all of this process is just my process, I don't mean any harm to anyone, nor do I have any judgment, it's just my experience with "mock" ill wishing is it's anything but "mock" it is either ill wishing or not, nothing mock about it, and once it's posted, it's absolutely an action, and not "just a thought"

I am not responsible for every thought that comes into my head, but I am absolutely responsible for what I do with that thought. Do I entertain it? Do I nurture it? treat it like a mushroom and keep it in the dark and feed it sh1t and watch it grow, or do I expose it to the sunlight and let it get healthy?

I did the one for many years, now I do the other.

TakingCharge999

((Dreamer999 tiptoes in the room cautiously...))

Hi SR friends!! I am back


Thanks ALL for taking the time out of your day to add your thoughts to this thread.

Honestly I had not thought about these ill wishing until today! I had a lovely weekend.

So do not think I am dwelling on revenge! I never meant to cause a storm, in fact I wrote that for me, because its a lonely place in my journal you know? I didn't expect anyone to answer.


ItsMeAlice & Midas: LOL to your first posts... the George Clooney-esque millionaire !

Barb52: I understand the feeling, I also wish his next bad event is not as bad and leads him to recovery (or at least to avoiding driving while drunk).

Midas: "praying for those who have hurt us"

I can count 3 males that have hurt me A LOT

So far I have forgiven 2 of them

To 1 I wish well and all the best
To another one, I just do not think about him anymore
To this last one, I am too early on this to even think to "wish him well", although sometimes I do.

Soemtimes I hope he does better and his suffering subsides, as well as mine, and of everyone here in SR and in the whole world...

But it will take time until I get there 100%. Right now I just have glimpses of compassion, but I know I am making more space in my heart for it


sailorjohn: "She didn't do anything to me, I gave her permission, in a sense, might even have been asking her to do it."

I agree... to a certain extent.

Me being a codie does not excuse his 50%, nor how HIS 50% harmed me... I am not a robot!!

Just as I have to own my 50%, he has to own his, too. I did not cause or gave him "permission" to do what he did. To me, that is blaming the victim and excusing the other person from any responsibility at all... I did what was best, I left, but words and actions hurt. A lot. They just do, and they make me feel angry and confused. That is my reality.


"And I really wouldn't wish addiction on my worst enemy."
Thanks for this. It is very, very sad indeed.

Ago: sorry if I triggered bad memories. Whenever I find a trigger, I make my best to remove myself from it. I read a lot of hurt in your post.

"just putting others down to build myself up"
Oh I dislike that as well. Not who I intend to be in my life.

"once it's posted, it's absolutely an action, and not "just a thought""
I disagree. Action would be to paint his Matrix bright yellow, or to shutdown his network port so he cannot work today. Don't get me started, LOL.

I am with others here that I wouldn't want anyone to feel censured or judged. This is like our Heaven for shedding some light to the darkest corners in our minds and hearts. At least I see it that way.
No one here is forced to read a thread, to reply, to find it "useful" or to find in it a definition of recovery.

GiveLove: "No real XA's were harmed in the making of this thread" LOL

I do not understand either how self esteem is related to feeling anger.

I accept I have done ill wishing to my ex and his new girlfriend and my ex's family and friends and posessions - its my truth. Granted, that is my anger speaking. I accept that if any of my ideas really happened, I would secretly feel GOOD. My ill wishing is not secret, its here in the open!

I do not have a problem accepting that eventhough he is an addict, and I left, it HURTS to know that I have been crying for 5 months and all this while he has been at it with someone else. I am sorry if I am not wishing him all the best in his life as of now. I am resentful. I feel sorrow. I just do. No amount of rationalization will subside the feelings, I just need to go through them to the best of my ability - that means writing in a journal and SR and talking in Alanon and AA.

So far I think The Unhealthy thing to do is to bottle up and act as if nothing happens. I know because I have done that with my anger for years.

Of course, most of the time now, and thanks to you guys and other key people, I just think its the addiction, and I am able to let go of everything and trust God and thank him for getting me out a dangerous situation and I ask him to take care of him and I am able to recognize my ex as a master in my life, who taught me so much on his presence and even more now in his absence... slowly these "enlightened" times are becoming the norm.... and I feel much better!

I have stuffed my anger all my life. I agree it is a venom. The worst venom. It needs to get out, and that does not make me any lesser of a person, or my path to recovery less "dignified". I am not my feelings and certainly I would not act on anything said here. And I am not planning on keeping this venom either. I aim for indifference!

I think in the end we all aim for peace and compassion towards our own selves and others so, the way we get there is not important!

Hugs everyone!!

TakingCharge999

BTW my weekend was great, I hope yours was, too.
I was able to enjoy the present moment, and some friends that I saw, and my new found place full of light and silence.

I am sorry I caused a conmotion but I agree it has been a great thread. It is very confusing, here with an ex being an addict, because just as he is Jekyll and Hyde at the same time, I reread my posts and I can see my own versions of a Jekyll and a Hyde too, fighting out!

This thread was started by my Hyde aspect. Sorry if anyone felt hurt. Never intended to trigger anything in anyone.

(((hugs)))

ItsmeAlice

Hello there Dreamer!! Glad your weekend went well. I was really starting to wonder if this thread had sent you into hiding. I'm so glad it was nothing of the sort.

You know since you started this thread and I put in my initial posts, I haven't had a truly snarky thought about my ABF stick in my brain. I guess I really did have a couple of nasty notes I had to get off my chest too.

Your mention of your recovery not being so dignified made me think of a recent household repair I made to our old sofa. Over time one of the supports pulled away from its nails and the darn thing was saggin'. I crawled back there with some duct tape and voila! as I emerged covered in dust bunnies (I'm no maid) I declared, "Well she's not the prettiest site, but she oughta hold my behind just fine."

My recovery may be held together with duct tape, chewing gum, and wishful thinking, but I'm going to keep moving forward.

Peace.

Alice

Ago

Welcome Back Dreamer

@Alice As long as it holds yer butt, that's the important thing kid

TakingCharge999

Thanks ItsMeAlice, great you are doing better too

Just FYI...
Today I got compliments from two coworkers. My ex was sitting just next, working.
They asked me why I looked so good, if I was going out or had a new boyfriend.

I COULD have said so. I mean, the ex has paraded his gf, talked about nasty stuff he does with her when he knows I am listening, brought her at the office, etc.

I couldn't make up anything at the moment. I just said "Thanks" and did not respond to their queries.

It felt like high school, not that he would be hurt knowing I am going out with anyone (I am not). But I could have had my own little "revenge" making up stories. I did not.

I felt great about myself, because I am not the same person as he is, and even if I fantasize with ways to torture him, for real I won't say a word that may remotely hurt him.

Sometimes I hate myself for that. I would like to be and feel sexier and start going out with everybody and being the CareFree Party Girl, being the only girl with 100~ guys on the floor, I COULD start playing that game.

I am a different person than he is, and I do not need to talk about anyone else or parade anyone around, to look good or feel good about myself I have no plans this night, but to mop the floor and wash the dishes LOL. I will keep on keeping my private life private.

I DO look good. Because I feel better, I invest in better friends, and I am feeling happier.

LaTeeDa

FWIW, I can understand both side of this "debate." For sure, I spent some time wishing ill on my A. Looking back though, I do see how it was something I did in order to make myself feel better. I still needed something to make me feel better, or validated, or whatever. They say recovery is like peeling an onion--just as you peel off one layer, another layer reveals itself. Probably why there were so many different reactions to this thread. If I may, I would like to suggest looking at the quote below and considering that there may be another layer to be uncovered:

Casting your self as the victim puts you in a helpless, vulnerable position. What if another "victimizer" comes along? Something my friend Minnie once said has always stuck with me regarding this. He's not doing it TO you, he's just doing it.

When we can move past taking alcoholic behavior personally, and come to the understanding that their behavior has nothing to do with us, we stop being the victim. When we can admit that, yes, we did allow the hurtful behavior, and even abuse, we become empowered. We are no longer helpless. We have choices and our fate no longer depends on how others treat us, but how we treat ourselves.

Just my two cents.

L

TakingCharge999

Thanks LTD!

"He's not doing it TO you, he's just doing it. "
Great phrase. I will chew on it.

I had a choice, and I left.

I feel better now, but the idea of them "just being" without any responsibility is still noisy to me.

With those comments I feel that it is permitted for them to say or act and do anything, because "that's what addicts do" and that's just "them", and somehow I was supposed to know everything about alcoholism, predict his behaviour and then beat myself up because I am codependent and I "accepted everything". If I accepted everything I would still be with this man.

I agree I need to own my 50% and think about the hurt I caused HIM and others, and shift the focus on me and my mistakes. But I assume this goes for the ex as well. I think its different, to feel the victim of the story, and another one to accept that you are a human being and that even knowing as much as we do about alcoholism and codependency, my feelings get hurt and I believed lies. I am not saying I am a martyr, I just describe how I feel.

But I will chew on that idea as well. Probably my clouded vision prevents me to see the truth on it.

What I really wanted to say, is that my ex just worked next to me once again, and I just put on my headphones, high volume, keep on doing my job. The oldies know I would be throwing a big tantrum for him ignoring me, etc. But no. His presence had less impact. Wow!

Quacking faded and I am just full of gratitude for being able to be my confused self here and have a place to vent and talk about my stuff.

So thanks all just for being out there...

LaTeeDa

There is a very key distinction here between "accepting" and "condoning." It is crucial to my serenity to accept others as they are, whether I like how they are or not. That does not mean that anything is okay with me, or that I lay myself down and become a doormat. It simply means that it is what it is, and out of my control

You may not like it, but the truth is that he is permitted to say or act or do anything (within the law) because he is an autonomous human adult, just as you and I are.

I disagree that if you accepted everything, you would still be with him. In fact, I would say just the opposite. Acceptance leads to making decisions based upon the reality of the situation. Denial leads to making decisions based on magical thinking. So, by leaving, you have shown that you do accept him as he is, and choose not to be with him.

Another thing I wanted to say was that when I wished ill on my ex, it gave me a sense of superiority and righteousness. The idea that he somehow deserved punishment for all my pain, while I in no way deserved the pain, seems rather arrogant and judgemental to me now.

I've evolved from wanting to drench him in honey and sick stinging ants on him, to pitying him, to wishing him a good and fulfilling life. Nothing wrong with being at the first stage, and nothing particularly commendable about being at the latter, just a process.

L

Ago

Absolutely LTD, you and Barb52 actually nailed exactly what I have been trying to say.

I actually see both sides as well, but I was trying to make another side "seen" as well, I've been both sides

Barbara52

This was true for me. It was when I accepted the realities of how alcoholism was affecting my xAH and me, when I accepted that his choices were his choices and that I could not change him, when I accepted that my choices in the past were no longer valid moving forward, that was when I knew I had to make changes in my own best interests and my life began to improve. xAH's behaviors and choices were no more tolerable or something I could live with but they were a reality I had to accept. He is who and what he is, and he has every right to make those choices for himself regardless of how I view them or what effect they had on me. I'm sure he would say my choices affected him badly and he has every right to feel that way too.

Acceptance for me means dealing in reality. It doesn't mean that by accepting reality that I accept alcoholism as a valid excuse for bad behaviors that affect me or others negatively. Acceptance doesn't mean I will make excuses for someone else whatever the reasons behind some negative behavior. It means only that I take things as they are when I am not in control of the behavior or situation or whatever.


Yup, a process. One that has fits and starts and doesn't go in a straight line from point a to point z. None of us get from here to there (where ever "there" is) by the same route.

GiveLove

Of course they should bear the responsibility for their stupid, cruel behavior. I don't think anyone's disputing that.

The question is whether you prefer to waste valuable time being judge, jury, and jailer ---- OR prefer to let him wallow in his stinky little stew and spend that time cultivating more joy in your own life.

Maybe you should let someone else (like karma, like life, like his own crappy choices) waste those precious minutes punishing him. A friend once said to me, "His life will be its own punishment." And she was so, so right.

He has no power over you any more, dreamer.

That much is obvious from your posts. Good for you and your birds of paradise :ghug

TakingCharge999

Just wanted thank all of you for clarifying these last ideas, and for giving me a lot more to think about...

You are all a great source of strength and wisdom. I would like to add something wise to the thread, but I cannot, LOL so I will add this icon, that reflects much of my sentiment:

TakingCharge999

Thanks GiveLove.
Yes, I feel that is related to the 2nd step, (I am still a Borderline 1st/2nd stepper LOL), to trust God's hands and accept our time together is over. Man is that hard.

I feel something bad really happened already, losing me and my friendship.. we had a great friendship. I miss that more than anything, but its true I have also found new people in my life that fulfill that role.

I even have problems accepting he is indeed an alcoholic. Can anyone relate? Last time I told a friend my ex was an alcoholic and I was just amazed saying the word out loud.

I also would like to know if anyone here has felt like they are addicted to SR, LOL and if they have felt the need to "move on" and stop reading and posting here...

I accept that sometimes this is my only relation to my ex AH and that SR has been my life these last months, but right now I remember there are OTHER webpages... (like People com, how can Rihanna accept violence??)

Just rambling..as usual...

Barbara52

I do this periodically. Especially when I realize I am not having patience with folks and feel its time to jsut step away for a while. Sometime I do wonder if staying and posting is a symptom of being a codie. But then, I post during the day while at work and it makes for a nice breaks too.

TakingCharge999

Ok I just realized this thread was added to the "Classic Reading" section, all of you added great insights and wisdom to it!! and now even more people will know I am stuck and immature LOL

Just wanted to tell Ago (and everybody) that NOW I see your point more clearly...

Granted, I still have a lot of anger towards exAH (work in progress...in fact I am about to do some Tae Bo moves and I am walking/running), and I still think SR is a safe place to vent about any feeling (instead of keeping it inside or taking it out on coworkers, family members, friends, oneself etc).

But I wanted to tell you that a few weeks/months later I think I am starting to "get" this recovery thing y'all talk about, LOL.

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and strength, I know I will keep rereading this and other threads until I am able to really grasp the message you are sending.

((Hugs))