The Toll
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 534
Wow, I am just like your friend. It's weird that the original post was on my birthday. It's like a little message to me. After a few weeks of no contact, I can totally see what I had become. Divorce papers were filed yesterday. I am so excited to finally be free from all of this madness and start living again. Thanks so much for bumping this!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 105
Thanks for bumping this. I've been really struggling with the loss of the man I loved, but also with how much of myself I've lost too. Most parts of my life are a giant mess after just one year of the insanity. I really need to say goodbye to that. I want to be healthy again, physically and emotionally. SR puts me back on track every time I log on.
mergirl
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Paradise
Posts: 4,161
It's just so sad, isn't it? I have a male friend, a few months ago I had a crush on, until I hung out with him and realized he is in full blown enabler/martyr mode. I hope he breaks free.
The program of attraction business is hope. My room mate is struggling now, but he says things like "I need a spiritual guru in my life". He watches me work my program, and all I can do is hope and pray that he will have an awakening before it's too late.
I did. I awakened. I am so happy to read your post wanting.
The program of attraction business is hope. My room mate is struggling now, but he says things like "I need a spiritual guru in my life". He watches me work my program, and all I can do is hope and pray that he will have an awakening before it's too late.
I did. I awakened. I am so happy to read your post wanting.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Oh Bernadette. I'm sorry.
I haven't read the others posts and hope this doesn't upset you, but I do have a question.
What's wrong with telling her how you feel? I suppose if you do it with the expectation of being able to help or change her, that is unhealthy. But I am an open book with my friends and family when it comes to my feelings about our relationship and I want the same from them. I appreciate it when folks tell me how they feel, even when I don't like it.
Can't you just say to her, this is so upsetting to me to see how you've changed. I relate it to my life and want the same growth and happiness for you. I know you make your own choices though and work to accept you chose this life for yourself.
Sure it could totally freak her out but I also believe in the power of truth. My life has taken a turn for the better at times when I've been able to hear concern from other folks.
To me, speaking my truth to those I love is part of the responsibility of being a good friend and family member. It must be done with compassion and without judgement and I also have to release attachment to outcome.
I haven't read the others posts and hope this doesn't upset you, but I do have a question.
What's wrong with telling her how you feel? I suppose if you do it with the expectation of being able to help or change her, that is unhealthy. But I am an open book with my friends and family when it comes to my feelings about our relationship and I want the same from them. I appreciate it when folks tell me how they feel, even when I don't like it.
Can't you just say to her, this is so upsetting to me to see how you've changed. I relate it to my life and want the same growth and happiness for you. I know you make your own choices though and work to accept you chose this life for yourself.
Sure it could totally freak her out but I also believe in the power of truth. My life has taken a turn for the better at times when I've been able to hear concern from other folks.
To me, speaking my truth to those I love is part of the responsibility of being a good friend and family member. It must be done with compassion and without judgement and I also have to release attachment to outcome.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In my little piece of heaven
Posts: 2,870
Bernadette,
I was once your friend too. My once bright light was barely flickering. Well meaning friends and family told me that they were concerned... and they offered advice. It might have seemed like I wasn't listening, but I was. I wasn't able to make big bold changes in my life. It wouldn't have been safe for me to do that. But, I was able to make small changes and take baby steps towards a better and healthier life. Looking back, what helped me the most were the gentle suggestions that were made from people who said things without judgment, who offered unconditional love. The people who got big and loud with me and told me what I should be doing? I tuned them out. I couldn't do what they said, not right then... and when they showed their disapproval because I wouldn't do it? I felt even worse about myself than I had before.
I have tried to remember that when I talk to new people in the program. I often give a brief version of what my life was like, some of the small changes I made, and what I might do differently if I had known what I know now. There's a big difference between telling someone what she should do, and simply sharing my own experience, strength and hope.
Your friend will probably remember your encounter. She'll think about how you looked, how much happier you are now than you were before. And she just might want what you have. Like others have said, ours is a program of attraction rather than promotion. She might find her own recovery and might find a better life for herself. She might thank you some day for something you said. You just never know.
I was once your friend too. My once bright light was barely flickering. Well meaning friends and family told me that they were concerned... and they offered advice. It might have seemed like I wasn't listening, but I was. I wasn't able to make big bold changes in my life. It wouldn't have been safe for me to do that. But, I was able to make small changes and take baby steps towards a better and healthier life. Looking back, what helped me the most were the gentle suggestions that were made from people who said things without judgment, who offered unconditional love. The people who got big and loud with me and told me what I should be doing? I tuned them out. I couldn't do what they said, not right then... and when they showed their disapproval because I wouldn't do it? I felt even worse about myself than I had before.
I have tried to remember that when I talk to new people in the program. I often give a brief version of what my life was like, some of the small changes I made, and what I might do differently if I had known what I know now. There's a big difference between telling someone what she should do, and simply sharing my own experience, strength and hope.
Your friend will probably remember your encounter. She'll think about how you looked, how much happier you are now than you were before. And she just might want what you have. Like others have said, ours is a program of attraction rather than promotion. She might find her own recovery and might find a better life for herself. She might thank you some day for something you said. You just never know.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
hey transform-- I have spoken to her, and even on this day, as I said in my post, and many many many many many times before. It's no different than trying to talk to an alcoholic about their drinking. She has made it pretty clear that she is handling this "her" way.
I learned in AlAnon and through experience that if I keep pointing out the same problems to the same people then I am the one with the problem. And if I keep bringing up the same thing that I see as a problem for that person then I have started reducing them to less than a whole person in my mind, I've begun to think all their problems stem from this one cause and why can't they just see and fix that dangblastit??!! That's where it starts to get codependent and bad for my mental health, y'know, like why am I focused on their problems and what I think are the solutions to their problems at all!!??
I do practice the concept of saying things without any expectation - but again, if I am saying the SAME things over and over then, obviously, I have an unmet expectation! Codie alert!
She's a big girl. She's heard what I've said. She's educated enough to know all about alcoholism, therapy, AlAnon, self-help, and divorce! She knows what's out there. She has made it pretty clear through actions and words that she is handling this her way and that, in spite of what the entire world may think, she must be fine with how things are cuz she does not actually change. And that's her right. The fact that it causes me sorrow, well that is what it is. There is so much fallout in the zone around a single alcoholic!
I guess, like you, I do well with blunt information from people I love and trust. But I still may not change what they think I should change. And, anyway, she's not me. Nowadays I try to talk to her about anything but her lousy situation!
peace-
b
I learned in AlAnon and through experience that if I keep pointing out the same problems to the same people then I am the one with the problem. And if I keep bringing up the same thing that I see as a problem for that person then I have started reducing them to less than a whole person in my mind, I've begun to think all their problems stem from this one cause and why can't they just see and fix that dangblastit??!! That's where it starts to get codependent and bad for my mental health, y'know, like why am I focused on their problems and what I think are the solutions to their problems at all!!??
I do practice the concept of saying things without any expectation - but again, if I am saying the SAME things over and over then, obviously, I have an unmet expectation! Codie alert!
She's a big girl. She's heard what I've said. She's educated enough to know all about alcoholism, therapy, AlAnon, self-help, and divorce! She knows what's out there. She has made it pretty clear through actions and words that she is handling this her way and that, in spite of what the entire world may think, she must be fine with how things are cuz she does not actually change. And that's her right. The fact that it causes me sorrow, well that is what it is. There is so much fallout in the zone around a single alcoholic!
I guess, like you, I do well with blunt information from people I love and trust. But I still may not change what they think I should change. And, anyway, she's not me. Nowadays I try to talk to her about anything but her lousy situation!
peace-
b
Last edited by Bernadette; 10-17-2009 at 01:03 PM.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
Oh, I get it. sorry, I guess I didn't read your post well enough. I thought you were biting your tongue, didn't know you have repeatedly talked to her.
I have a friend like that. Well, had. To me she's a bit masochistic and nothing I can say to her every gets through. Yet, she expects me to just listen and feel sorry for her about he horrible situation, when she just lives there. Wallows there.
I mostly avoid her now. It's too stressful. On a good day I can hang out with her and the kids, but honestly, it gets old.
I have a friend like that. Well, had. To me she's a bit masochistic and nothing I can say to her every gets through. Yet, she expects me to just listen and feel sorry for her about he horrible situation, when she just lives there. Wallows there.
I mostly avoid her now. It's too stressful. On a good day I can hang out with her and the kids, but honestly, it gets old.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wild West, USA
Posts: 407
When I was in high school, I had a friend who went from being shy and withdrawn to being a remarkably independent, free and critically thinking young woman, due to Alateen. One time she very gently cautioned me about unrealistic expectations... I don't remember if they were of myself, or of the boy I was interested in at the time. But her admonition to always accept things as they TRULY are and not as I wish them to be did make a difference; it just took me years to understand how totally lost I got the moment I gave in to self deception, and, therefore, how important it is not to BS myself. (I'm not saying I never lie to myself, I can only deal with so much at once and sometimes I mentally make problems go away. But now I expect situations to go to h*ll when I don't face the truth about them. In 1986, I didn't know any better.)
About fifteen years later when I started Alanon, I realized exactly how she acquired that wisdom and self confidence. Thank you AMW.
The power of attracting by example to Alanon... or to any healthier way of approaching life... doesn't necessarily have an expiration date. It is possible to make a huge difference in someone's life even if it doesn't seem that you've done anything significant at the time.
thanks for bumping!
About fifteen years later when I started Alanon, I realized exactly how she acquired that wisdom and self confidence. Thank you AMW.
The power of attracting by example to Alanon... or to any healthier way of approaching life... doesn't necessarily have an expiration date. It is possible to make a huge difference in someone's life even if it doesn't seem that you've done anything significant at the time.
thanks for bumping!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 673
How many likenesses of your friend have you helped here on SR, or in AlAnon? I've only been here a week, and you've helped me sooo much! Someday, somehow, somewhere your friend will seek help, and either you, or somebody like you will be there to help her. We whose hearts are hurting for you and your friend are praying (rooting, keeping our fingers crossed, etc) for her.
I AM CANADIAN
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 2,578
aaah yes...ATTRACTION "without" promotion....i get so many questions..how are you doing "it" and you look terrific! whats the secret?.....and i tell them...i am on a healthy path of life with AL ANON, and everyday working MY recovery!
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Your friend is a good opportunity to put what you're learning in the program into practice.
I know it hurts. I know it's a tragedy. But...go back to the 1st Step.
My sister stayed with 2 alcoholic husbands, way too long. She used to be a very pretty, bright, fun, vibrant young woman. Now she is bitter and old-I don't even interact with her because she's become a religious nut-only wants to talk to me about getting saved and going to church.
Nothing anyone could have done tho..she had to follow her own destructive path for about 30+ years. It's like watching a train go off the cliff, after you'd already notified the conductor there was a cliff there.
I know it hurts. I know it's a tragedy. But...go back to the 1st Step.
My sister stayed with 2 alcoholic husbands, way too long. She used to be a very pretty, bright, fun, vibrant young woman. Now she is bitter and old-I don't even interact with her because she's become a religious nut-only wants to talk to me about getting saved and going to church.
Nothing anyone could have done tho..she had to follow her own destructive path for about 30+ years. It's like watching a train go off the cliff, after you'd already notified the conductor there was a cliff there.
Originally Posted by Bernadette 
A dear friend was in town today. We are good friends, but I don't get to see her much since I moved back to Boston.
She literally limped into the cafe. Her usually beautiful long black hair was dull, she had dark circles under her eyes and her skin was pale. She has the most brilliant blue eyes, but, wow they were just...weak...and like clouded. We greeted each other really happily etc. Obviously I can't blurt out "You look terrible!"
I knew from the very first time I met her then fiance, that he had a drinking problem. You guys know what I mean, when you've lived with it your whole life you spot it instantly. Before they got married I told her I was very concerned about his drinking and what that might mean for her and their marriage. She was concerned too, but she said he had agreed to cut way down. I told her what I thought about that - and well naturally had to let it go.
Her own father was an alcoholic. She knows how much AlAnon has helped me over the years.
It's just "not for me" she always says. And I always laugh and say - I don't have that luxury, to think I can figure this sh*t out on my own! I can't do it!
Well, 10 years on now. She is doing everything to keep her family afloat. He works, rarely, as a substitute teacher. But he also won't take care of the kids when he isn't working so she pays for a babysitter 5 days a week. She is involved at the kid's school. He is not. She is managing the household finances, keeping the home orderly etc. She is creating a lovely social life for her children and keeping them active.
He stays up every night drinking.
She wakes up in the morning to do the bkfst/school run/get to work routine and he is often just going to bed.
So. Beyond what a really crummy relationship this seems like, beyond the fact that this guy is incapable of even being present emotionally - like if all that is not enough to wake her up - she is literally dying inside. That's why she looks that way. She is being worn down to a nub by this life she has chosen and this albatross around her neck.
Why does she stay?
He was handsome and briliant and charming and sexy when they met.
He was ambitious and full of plans when they met.
He was emotionally available and attentive when they met.
He is none of those things now.
She holds the key - at every minute of every day she holds the key and yet she does not choose to leave her prison.
The prison I refer to is not the marriage - I feel the prison is the denial of what's happening to her because of how she has chosen to handle loving an alcoholic.
I was so upset at the state of her.
I told her I loved her and that I was still going to AlAnon sporadically and that I was still learning new things about myself in that way....she said she was thinking about going back to therapy and that AlAnon just is not for her (she has never been to 1 meeting in her life btw) I agreed therapy would be helpful to her.
Here is a woman who is already paying for and organizing everything - so why doesn't she get help?
We often fool ourselves that money is what would make all the difference. I look at my friend and I know it is just not as simple as that and not having money can work as a handy excuse....
Ugh. I just had the worst saddest feeling after lunch. I realized after she left it was the same feeling I had the day I had to finally accept the seriousness of my brothers alcoholism- I had to sadly acknowledge that yes they might die, today, or kill some innocent person while driving, or end up in jail or any number of low places due to their alcoholism.
But this was the first time I saw in the eyes of a F&F of alcoholics that living with alcoholism is killing her. All the glorious light that used to shine from her eyes.....ugh. She IS as sick as the addict.
I just want to bombard her with evidence of how sick she is....like scan some old pictures of us and then put the snap we took today beside it and send it to her...again with an expectation....a huge unhealthy expectation that that will be the thing - that I have the power to make her go "OH YES!" And then everything will be made right again.
Why?
Because she was assertive and smart when we met.
Because she cared about her appearance and was always effortlessly stylish when we met.
Because she was not a martyr when we met.
Because she was happy when we met.
Becasue she had big plans for her beautiful life when we met.
*sigh*
The past is gone. These are her choices.
I am just having one of those days you guys, where all the damage done by alcohol to people in my life is just TOO MUCH to bear. I am so sick of it. I am so tired of dealing with it. I am angry at the pain I feel......
-b
She literally limped into the cafe. Her usually beautiful long black hair was dull, she had dark circles under her eyes and her skin was pale. She has the most brilliant blue eyes, but, wow they were just...weak...and like clouded. We greeted each other really happily etc. Obviously I can't blurt out "You look terrible!"
I knew from the very first time I met her then fiance, that he had a drinking problem. You guys know what I mean, when you've lived with it your whole life you spot it instantly. Before they got married I told her I was very concerned about his drinking and what that might mean for her and their marriage. She was concerned too, but she said he had agreed to cut way down. I told her what I thought about that - and well naturally had to let it go.
Her own father was an alcoholic. She knows how much AlAnon has helped me over the years.
It's just "not for me" she always says. And I always laugh and say - I don't have that luxury, to think I can figure this sh*t out on my own! I can't do it!
Well, 10 years on now. She is doing everything to keep her family afloat. He works, rarely, as a substitute teacher. But he also won't take care of the kids when he isn't working so she pays for a babysitter 5 days a week. She is involved at the kid's school. He is not. She is managing the household finances, keeping the home orderly etc. She is creating a lovely social life for her children and keeping them active.
He stays up every night drinking.
She wakes up in the morning to do the bkfst/school run/get to work routine and he is often just going to bed.
So. Beyond what a really crummy relationship this seems like, beyond the fact that this guy is incapable of even being present emotionally - like if all that is not enough to wake her up - she is literally dying inside. That's why she looks that way. She is being worn down to a nub by this life she has chosen and this albatross around her neck.
Why does she stay?
He was handsome and briliant and charming and sexy when they met.
He was ambitious and full of plans when they met.
He was emotionally available and attentive when they met.
He is none of those things now.
She holds the key - at every minute of every day she holds the key and yet she does not choose to leave her prison.
The prison I refer to is not the marriage - I feel the prison is the denial of what's happening to her because of how she has chosen to handle loving an alcoholic.
I was so upset at the state of her.
I told her I loved her and that I was still going to AlAnon sporadically and that I was still learning new things about myself in that way....she said she was thinking about going back to therapy and that AlAnon just is not for her (she has never been to 1 meeting in her life btw) I agreed therapy would be helpful to her.
Here is a woman who is already paying for and organizing everything - so why doesn't she get help?
We often fool ourselves that money is what would make all the difference. I look at my friend and I know it is just not as simple as that and not having money can work as a handy excuse....
Ugh. I just had the worst saddest feeling after lunch. I realized after she left it was the same feeling I had the day I had to finally accept the seriousness of my brothers alcoholism- I had to sadly acknowledge that yes they might die, today, or kill some innocent person while driving, or end up in jail or any number of low places due to their alcoholism.
But this was the first time I saw in the eyes of a F&F of alcoholics that living with alcoholism is killing her. All the glorious light that used to shine from her eyes.....ugh. She IS as sick as the addict.
I just want to bombard her with evidence of how sick she is....like scan some old pictures of us and then put the snap we took today beside it and send it to her...again with an expectation....a huge unhealthy expectation that that will be the thing - that I have the power to make her go "OH YES!" And then everything will be made right again.
Why?
Because she was assertive and smart when we met.
Because she cared about her appearance and was always effortlessly stylish when we met.
Because she was not a martyr when we met.
Because she was happy when we met.
Becasue she had big plans for her beautiful life when we met.
*sigh*
The past is gone. These are her choices.
I am just having one of those days you guys, where all the damage done by alcohol to people in my life is just TOO MUCH to bear. I am so sick of it. I am so tired of dealing with it. I am angry at the pain I feel......
-b
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
I'm afraid a friend of mine is beginning to get like this.
She's seeing this guy who, while not an alcoholic, is unreliable, selfish, narcissistic, stuck on TWO different exes...it's hard for me to listen to her complain about him.
I talked to my sponsor and she said, if it gets bad enough, to tell her politely that you don't want to discuss him.
I see shades of myself in her codependency. When he is willing to give her scraps of attention, she's in a good mood. When he's blowing her off, she's depressed. I kind of wanna drag her to a meeting even tho she has no alcoholics in her life.
She's seeing this guy who, while not an alcoholic, is unreliable, selfish, narcissistic, stuck on TWO different exes...it's hard for me to listen to her complain about him.
I talked to my sponsor and she said, if it gets bad enough, to tell her politely that you don't want to discuss him.
I see shades of myself in her codependency. When he is willing to give her scraps of attention, she's in a good mood. When he's blowing her off, she's depressed. I kind of wanna drag her to a meeting even tho she has no alcoholics in her life.
Originally Posted by transformyself
Oh, I get it. sorry, I guess I didn't read your post well enough. I thought you were biting your tongue, didn't know you have repeatedly talked to her.
I have a friend like that. Well, had. To me she's a bit masochistic and nothing I can say to her every gets through. Yet, she expects me to just listen and feel sorry for her about he horrible situation, when she just lives there. Wallows there.
I mostly avoid her now. It's too stressful. On a good day I can hang out with her and the kids, but honestly, it gets old.
I have a friend like that. Well, had. To me she's a bit masochistic and nothing I can say to her every gets through. Yet, she expects me to just listen and feel sorry for her about he horrible situation, when she just lives there. Wallows there.
I mostly avoid her now. It's too stressful. On a good day I can hang out with her and the kids, but honestly, it gets old.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
sandra isn't it "funny" we are able to see codependency now? I look at movies and have interacted with 2 different guys that are SO codependent... I can see how unattractive it is!! and I can catch myself when I am doing it now...
This post is old, haven't seen Bernadette around lately.. but it was powerful for me... now that I am looking more "normal" some people have told me how bad I looked before! "drained" is the word I have heard.
This post is old, haven't seen Bernadette around lately.. but it was powerful for me... now that I am looking more "normal" some people have told me how bad I looked before! "drained" is the word I have heard.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Excellent bump TC.
I read this shortly after coming to SR. It was a very powerful post for me. I was exactly like her friend. An IRL friend made just one comment to me at just the right time that shocked me into some reality and I moved forward with separation but I was really struggling. I found SR shortly after that and this one post went a long way with keeping me focused on myself and remembering the comment that put me in motion. How did I become that woman, Bernadette's friend? While the 'how' is less of a mystery it is still hard for me to wrap my brain around it.
I read this shortly after coming to SR. It was a very powerful post for me. I was exactly like her friend. An IRL friend made just one comment to me at just the right time that shocked me into some reality and I moved forward with separation but I was really struggling. I found SR shortly after that and this one post went a long way with keeping me focused on myself and remembering the comment that put me in motion. How did I become that woman, Bernadette's friend? While the 'how' is less of a mystery it is still hard for me to wrap my brain around it.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
There's a lot I could say but a lot of people have said it better already... I will say this. Don't give up encouraging (gently) her to check out al anon.
It took me over a year of my T asking me if I'd gone or had considered it, before I would.
My reasons:
My father "counseled" folks at AA/Al-Anon (that's what he told us when he'd leave every night, my mother would fly into a rage and be abusive as soon as he left and he was really off having affairs). But my association with AA/Al-Anon was very very negative.
I didn't believe my H was an alcoholic. I thought alcoholics were falling down drunk, beating their wives, unable to keep a job, homeless etc. I thought I'd be laughed out of Al-Anon bc I had it so easy.
I didn't believe that a program run by lay people, that was free and that talked about God would be able to teach me anything I didn't already know.
So, I share this to say that maybe your friend will come around and check out al anon at some point. I've been where she is and convinced it wasn't for me and I have changed my opinion 100%. If someone had told me I would I'd have laughed...
Having a good friend, even if it seems she is getting nothing that you are saying, is probably the best thing for her right now.
She's lucky to have you as a friend.
It took me over a year of my T asking me if I'd gone or had considered it, before I would.
My reasons:
My father "counseled" folks at AA/Al-Anon (that's what he told us when he'd leave every night, my mother would fly into a rage and be abusive as soon as he left and he was really off having affairs). But my association with AA/Al-Anon was very very negative.
I didn't believe my H was an alcoholic. I thought alcoholics were falling down drunk, beating their wives, unable to keep a job, homeless etc. I thought I'd be laughed out of Al-Anon bc I had it so easy.
I didn't believe that a program run by lay people, that was free and that talked about God would be able to teach me anything I didn't already know.
So, I share this to say that maybe your friend will come around and check out al anon at some point. I've been where she is and convinced it wasn't for me and I have changed my opinion 100%. If someone had told me I would I'd have laughed...
Having a good friend, even if it seems she is getting nothing that you are saying, is probably the best thing for her right now.
She's lucky to have you as a friend.
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