"...alcoholics have to own their own behavior"

Old 02-05-2009, 01:03 PM
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"...alcoholics have to own their own behavior"

I've head this sentiment before and just read it again in a recent thread. But what does that mean? Someone drinks/drives gets a DUI, gets locked up. You let them stew in jail, they caused the problem let them deal with it. But what to do when we have to live with the consequence of their addiction. What do we do when the alcoholic spills a pot of stew on the kitchen floor that you just finished cleaning and waxing after the previous spill of red wine? What do you do when the alcoholics diarrhea is so bad that they don't make it to the toilet in time and it ends up on the floor and the toilet? You point out to them what they did, but they don't care. Do you just leave it there? Do you harass them until they clean it up? And if/when they do you follow up because they still leave it a mess. How far does "owning their own behavior" go??
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:12 PM
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If I engaged in such behaviors, I would expect those around me to kick me out or leave me.

Unacceptable behaviors are just that, unacceptable. I cannot force another person to stop the unacceptable behavior but I sure can remove them or remove myself from the vicinity. The involvement of alcoholism doesn't change that basic fact.

I can choose to stay in that environment and clean up the other person.
I can choose to kick them out so it doesn't happen again.
I can choose to leave because I can't live in such an environment.

If would choose the kick the person out or to leave them, they own that as a consequence of their behavior.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:47 PM
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Yep, what they said. The consequence is that you might actually decide to find a better life and environment for yourself.

I'm sorry to hear how frustrating it's been! Hugs, HG
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara52 View Post
If I engaged in such behaviors, I would expect those around me to kick me out or leave me.
Absolutely. That's an approach I've found useful in working out how to deal with these kinds of issues. I rearrange it into "If it was me who was exhibiting those behaviours, how would I deal with it? And if I just ignored it and didn't deal with it, what kind of reaction would I expect to receive from others?"

For example, if I dropped a pot of stew on a newly-cleaned floor, I'd clean it up and try to get the floor back into the state it was before the accident. Fair enough, accidents can happen to anyone (I've got a stone floor in my kitchen and it's instant death to anything remotely fragile that's dropped on it). But you clean up after yourself. If I failed to do that, I'd expect that the person with whom I shared a house with to be having very serious second-thoughts about the wisdom of co-habiting with me. If the "accident" involved my bodily waste products, I'd be mortified to even think about leaving it for someone else to clean up. I've got some pride and self-respect, after all.

By the same token, I'd expect anyone I share a house with to follow much the same basic principles. I'm all for people being individuals and that's great. But if I'm sharing a house with them through choice, there are certain minimum standards of behaviour that I will not stick around to see transgressed.

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Old 02-05-2009, 03:43 PM
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Spikedaball,

Barbara and Anvilhead took my words out of my mouth.

It is all about boundaries. I am always asking myself: Is this a good life? This is the life I want, the one I always dreamed of? Is the good worth the bad?

As long as alcoholics live in a world without boundaries, without repercussions, I would not expect any change of behavior soon. Hoping you'll choose life.

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:10 PM
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choices, respect, boundaries... all valid points.
What choices do I have? Leave? I made a commitment, a vow, "in sickness and in health". Leave the house that I have taken care of, maintained, improved? Leave the dogs with her? She can't take care of herself. I've had friends offer rooms but without the dogs. I can't afford to pay a mortgage and rent. I can't kick her out....no where for her to go. She's lost her friends and family is a long way away.
Boundaries? What good are boundaries to someone who has lost touch with realty? A person who can't remember events; Who doesn't care about walking around in public with stained clothes?
Respect? Again, how can I expect respect for me, for the house, when she doesn't respect herself?

I know, nothing but excuses on my part. But I know that somewhere deep down inside her is the person I married, the caring, thoughtful, fun person. Or maybe I don't do something because I'm just enjoying the suffering.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:19 PM
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As long as you think you have no choices, that you can do nothing to improve your life, nothing will change for you. Or for her. If you choose to continue enabling and living in what sounds truly repulsive conditions, that is your choice.

You might want to look at it from the angle of what your enabling does to her though.

It takes away her responsibility for herself as an adult. It sends the message that she incapable of taking care of herself, puts her in the position of being the eternal irresponsible child to your position as parent. It sends the message that it's ok for her to throw her life away.

I too made those marriage vows. And meant them. But I came to understand that God does not want anyone to throw their one and only life away because their spouse chooses to put alcohol above all else, even God.

Have you tried AlAnon? Or individual counseling?
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
I can't kick her out....no where for her to go. She's lost her friends and family is a long way away.
Perhaps it's not that you enjoy the suffering; you just are used to it and have learned to adapt to this sort of life.

Sure, you can kick her out. How is she getting money for her habit now? Are you giving her an allowance? Does she have a job? Is she paying for her booze with money she has set aside in a savings account?

If she's determined to remain addicted, living on the streets won't stop her from drinking and she will find a way to survive. A's are good at getting survival skills really fast if they want to stay active.

I don't want to sound cruel here, but perhaps life on the streets will be her bottom. Sad, but true ...
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:33 PM
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I can't kick her out....no where for her to go.
Actually that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. I was kicked out at 33 1/2 years old. NO CONTACT. If I called, the phone was hung up. If I came to the door, it was shut in my face, and if I had attempted to steal any more from them they would have called the cops.

It took me another 2 1/2 years to find recovery and the last year and a half I lived on the streets.....................................and I came from Upper Middle Class. That was almost 28 years ago now. I can tell you that the BEST THING my family ever did for me was to KICK ME OUT!

You are not obligated to put up with her DISRESPECT of you and your home. Maybe some TOUGH CONSEQUENCES for her actions will bring her closer to recovery quicker. Salvation Army has a great program and it's free.

I know you already do or will feel guilty about all of this. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!

She has done this to herself. The only one you can help is YOURSELF.

Please find some AlAnon meetings for you. They really can help tremendously.

J M H O

Love and hugs,
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:40 PM
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I am always amazed at how often the "I made a vow" angle gets tossed up here.

Didn't your spouse make a vow to you?

The vow says something like to love honor and obey (I actually have a problem with that one anyway!!) in sickness and health-- that goes BOTH ways - people think it only means if their spouse gets sick they still have to stay the course - to me it also says even if I am sick I still have to love and cherish, I can't use my sickness as an excuse to treat my partner with disrespect!!

And I also think addiction/alcoholism is a LOT different than other illnesses in that the alcoholic has the power and the CHOICE to seek recovery. It is not easy to make that choice and commitment - for many it is impossible. It has been shown time and again that the best way family members can help an addict/alcoholic is to STOP helping them! Every time you provide her with a soft landing (money, food, bed, tidying up her messes, especially her embarrasing messes) you may as well be handing her another drink. if you're thinking you are helping her - wow- all the support we provide for our alcoholic loved ones is like giving sugar to a diabetic.

Read as much as you can about alcoholism so you know what you're really dealing with! And make a vow to yourself to protect your own mental health!

peace,
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Old 02-06-2009, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
Boundaries? What good are boundaries to someone who has lost touch with realty? A person who can't remember events; Who doesn't care about walking around in public with stained clothes?
I think you misunderstand what a boundary is about. It took me quite a while to realise that a boundary is not about getting someone else to stop doing something I find unacceptable. A boundary is about how I protect myself from unacceptable behaviour from others.

So to answer your question "What good are boundaries to someone who has lost touch with realty?", the answer is "None". Someone who's lost touch with reality likely has no concept of the need of boundaries or why they're important.

If you recast the question to "What good are boundaries to a person who's sharing a house with someone who has lost touch with reality?", though, then I think the answer is different.

I understand you are not willing to leave your home. That's ok, but it does limit your capacity for personal protection somewhat. Let's look at this a different way. Say a stranger staggered up to your house, collapsed unconscious outside your front door and was obviously so messed up that they lost control of their bodily functions. You're not sure if they're drunk, drugged, sick or injured. Wouldn't you call an ambulance? I would. Sure, if they stink of alcohol then I might suspect they're drunk but I'm no doctor; I don't know. For all I know they might be perfectly sober but in a diabetic coma and just happened to have had a glass of whiskey spilled on them by accident.

So if your wife loses control of her bodily functions, and is so out of it she is incoherent and cannot be properly roused into consciousness, maybe it might be a good idea to call an ambulance and get some professionals involved in her care.

Respect? Again, how can I expect respect for me, for the house, when she doesn't respect herself?
You cannot expect someone else to respect you. That's their business. All you can do is conduct yourself in a way that allows you to respect yourself.

Take care,
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:01 PM
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I, too, thought my vow was precious- I loved this man and he is sick, so therefor I stay with him and do whatever I can to make HIM happy. But it is so true- what about his vow to me? Once I had had enough and kicked my exAH out when i found out he was smoking crack, it was a step toward loving myself and not allowing this sick man to manipulate me any longer. I was actually loving him more by letting him go then by allowing him to stay and wreck havoc with all of our lives. It was not MY responsibility as his wife to enable his drinking and drug use. It was my responsibility to love him and by doing so, I let him go figure things out for himself.
Since then I have changed so much and found myself and continue to try to take care of myself. I have had another relationship which turned out to be very similar to my marriage but that has taught me about being codependent and enabling and has forced me to address these issues i started when I kicked my ExAH out to fend for himself.
God wants us to be happy and healthy, not slop cleaner uppers and miserable do gooders. We need to wise up and take care of US! PERIOD!
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Old 02-06-2009, 01:41 PM
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Once upon a time -- like probably almost 4 years ago -- someone was on this site complaining because her AH, who was on probation related to a DUI, had been out drinking and was spotted by a neighbor who reported him to the police. Despite the CW attempts to save him from the consequences of his behavior (Lying for him, hiring attorneys he had not money to pay for, etc...), he was now going to jail, and the CW was here on SR railing against the neighbor for ruining her life.

Someone posted a response that went something like: "He chose the drink, he pays the price; You chose the man, you pay the price." Now, I can be quite blunt myself, but that remark, true though it most certainly is, made me wince, because, at the time, it struck me as very harsh. But I cannot tell you how many times since reading that I have remembered it when about to make a stupid decision in relation to my AP, and when I do so, it is always very helpful because it makes things just about as clear as they can be: If I don't like the price I'm paying, then it's my responsibility to make a different choice. Period. And any "but, but, but' that comes after that is nothing but me b*llsh*tting myself.

Also, as far as the "vow" thing goes. I have a Al Anon friend, who before she was in program, had stuck it out in a nasty, abusive marriage because that's what good Catholic girls do. When she was at the end of her rope, she went to her parish priest in the hopes of getting strength and support to continue sticking it out. After she told him her story, the priest said to her: "If you choose to stay in this horrific, violent situation, don't you ever let me hear blame God or His church for whatever happens." Then he referred her to Al Anon.

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Old 02-06-2009, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
choices, respect, boundaries... all valid points.
What choices do I have? Leave? I made a commitment, a vow, "in sickness and in health".
Yes, you certainly can choose to leave or ask her to leave. The vows: "Will you love her, comfort her, honor and keep her, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, in sadness and in joy, to cherish and continually bestow upon her your heart’s deepest devotion, forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her as long as you both shall live?"

She made these vows, too. Has she kept up her part of this promise? Does she continually bestow her heart's deepest devotion and forsake all others (including alcohol)?

Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
Leave the house that I have taken care of, maintained, improved? Leave the dogs with her? She can't take care of herself. I've had friends offer rooms but without the dogs. I can't afford to pay a mortgage and rent. I can't kick her out....no where for her to go. She's lost her friends and family is a long way away.
If she has no friends and nowhere else to go, that is the consequence of her actions and it is not your responsibility. If need be, you can always find good homes for the dogs or place them with friends temporarily.

Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
Boundaries? What good are boundaries to someone who has lost touch with realty? A person who can't remember events; Who doesn't care about walking around in public with stained clothes? Respect? Again, how can I expect respect for me, for the house, when she doesn't respect herself?
If she is walking around in stained clothes, that's embarrassing for her, not on you (even though she is unaffected at this time). Do you respect yourself? You deserve to respect yourself and to have a healthy relationship. She is your wife and you love her. Hopefully, someday, she will find her recovery and you two can enjoy the life you once planned. I hope very much that you find your own recovery as well...it's why all the folks at SR support one another.

Sending you lots of cyber support and huge hugs!:ghug

HG
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Old 02-06-2009, 03:19 PM
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Spikedaball,

I have read this post and the replies several times. There is so much wisdom in the words offered you.

As the alcoholic in my marriage, I call tell you, even I agree with what all of these wise people are telling you. I'm the alcoholic and I completely agree that what I needed in order to find recovery - more than any type of caretaking - was to be told that my behavior was unacceptable. It wasn't until my husband refused to look away that I stepped forward to find recovery.

My other thought is that your wife sounds as if she is in very serious danger physically. I agree with the person who suggested you call an ambulance.

My heart goes out to you. I hope you can be strong and really hear what is being offered you here. And I'm glad that you are at SR. I hope you stay and let us help.
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:18 AM
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Since this seems to be turning into a thread about my situation I'll add some more comments. THanks for everyone's thoughts. I've been to counselors, both on my own and to my wife's. My wife has seen two different counselors. One she stopped seeing because she didn't like him. The second one recently told her, in my presence, that he couldn't see her anymore because she wouldn't stop drinking and wouldn't do the things he was suggesting. He told her that her last option was an inpatient treatment facility. He told me that I should leave because my wife, with me living with her, was committing "public" suicide. I've been to AlAnon meetings with two different groups. I didn't find them very useful. I don't like the concept of sitting and listening to what others have done over the past week and not be able to ask a question or ask for advice. I also did not like the idea that you could only speak one time and that was it. I think this site has been much more valuable since you get to see what is happening to others and also to have a discussion about individual situations.

So, now I'm waiting to see if my wife will agree to inpatient treatment.

Thanks to everyone!
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:57 AM
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Spikedball.....I wanted to let you know that not all alanon meetings are the same. I've attended two so far, and they were both small enough (just 4-5 people) that everyone shared and then there was a sort of open discussion. Nobody offered advice, but then nobody had asked for any.

I do hope that you find the support you need, whether it be in alanon or not. And I hope you keep coming back here too, this place is really great!
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Old 02-07-2009, 09:32 AM
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Spiked, my AW has been in treatment about a dozen times both inpatient and outpatient. She's out of the house in a sober living home and we a going through mediation for divorce. I too felt that I could not do this! Two dogs, one 15 year old at home and a 19 year old at college. It is hard but it can be done! Knowledge is power so find a good mediator to discuss options for separation or divorce. Alanon is not my cup of tea either but I went to three therapists and found one that has really helped me. I used to stress about the process and financial insanity of divorce but now I see the peace it will bring to my life and it's worth every penny!

Move forward one step at a time....but move!

Good luck!
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
... The second one recently told her, in my presence, that he couldn't see her anymore because she wouldn't stop drinking and wouldn't do the things he was suggesting. He told her that her last option was an inpatient treatment facility. He told me that I should leave because my wife, with me living with her, was committing "public" suicide....

I don't like the concept of sitting and listening to what others have done over the past week and not be able to ask a question or ask for advice.

... I also did not like the idea that you could only speak one time and that was it.

... I think this site has been much more valuable since you get to see what is happening to others and also to have a discussion about individual situations.

So, now I'm waiting to see if my wife will agree to inpatient treatment.

Thanks to everyone!


How long are you planning on waiting to see if your wife will agree to inpatient?

I know many people who found their way to inpatient treatment through the ER. I'd encourage you to call that ambulance as soon as possible and let things get sorted out at the hospital. They'll most likely medically detox her and then give her the option of inpatient recovery. If she turns it down, then you have your answer.

I know you don't LIKE some of the options that are available to you to help you process what you are going through. But surely, you like them better than living with your wife as she not-so-slowly kills herself with your assistance.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
The second one recently told her, in my presence, that he couldn't see her anymore because she wouldn't stop drinking and wouldn't do the things he was suggesting.
Sounds like a wise therapist. If the A doesn't want to change, it doesn't happen.


Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
I've been to AlAnon meetings with two different groups. I didn't find them very useful.
AlAnon is not for everyone. I have never been to a meeting, had never felt the urge even. I have found my road to a healthier me through this site, lots of reading, honest self examination and some individual therapy.


Originally Posted by spikedaball View Post
So, now I'm waiting to see if my wife will agree to inpatient treatment.
How long are you willing to put your life on hold waiting for her to do something? What if she doesn't go? What will you do then?

Last edited by DesertEyes; 02-07-2009 at 02:42 PM. Reason: fixed broken quote
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