Truth
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Originally Posted by ToughChoices 
I do not use sex as a weapon or as a manipulation technique.
I enjoy sex.
My husband's drinking made it impossible for me to live with him, but, as I wasn't ready to divorce, I chose to continue my physical relationship with my husband in spite of our separate living arrangements.
I enjoy sex.
My husband's drinking made it impossible for me to live with him, but, as I wasn't ready to divorce, I chose to continue my physical relationship with my husband in spite of our separate living arrangements.
Are you ready now for a divorce?
From your post, we all get the idea your husband is a liar.
Why are you willing to continue on with him??
The 3 cornerstones in any good marriage or, relationship is, love, respect and trust.
Pardon me if, I'm over looking something here but, I don't see any at all in what you've written about your husband.
Don't you deserve a husband or, a b/f that, treats you the way a person should be treated?
Yield beautiful changes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,698
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
I think it took a lot of courage to post the contents of that e-mail and even more courage to listen with an open mind to the feedback you received from folks who aren't emotionally involved in the situation. It's easier for us to see things clearly. The moment love enters the picture for me, that's when it gets hard.
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
I think you need time to absorb everything and then decide what's the best course of action for you. Today is probably not that day.
I do need some time to think through a good plan.
Divorces don't happen overnight - it's a process. But, I do think that the time has come for me to initiate that process.
I suppose that means:
Contacting my lawyer about changing my legal separation agreement to a divorce agreement.
Buying health insurance through the student insurance pool.
Proceeding with my campus transfer request for my rotations (closer to my parents).
Acting like a woman who is separating/divorcing her husband - with all that that entails.
STBXAH is currently in the very attentive and loving portion of his cycle - after dropping off the face of the earth for a three day binge the week before last. He's been doing all the normal "that was a mistake" stuff, talking about AA and asking me to come over for dinner, telling me that he needs me so much and he knows he has to quit. I haven't told him about the email stuff, and I'm sure he isn't thinking about that email at all - those forwarded conversations happened back in December.
To be honest I want to wait to tell him I've filed until 1.) I've actually filed and 2.) he suffers his next, inevitable relapse.
Right now it just seems like letting him know I'm done with this mess will elicit a huge conversation about how he's trying so hard and he hasn't had a drop in 10 days, he obviously wants me/loves me - he keeps asking to spend time with me, etc.... I know that I don't have to engage in a messy conversation or defend my choices - but I also know me - and I'm a "defender" and a "I have excellent reasons for my choices"er. It would be ugly. And there's nothing he can say that ought to change my mind at this point, so I think minimizing the conversation may be the best way to go.
It just seems like it will be easier on me to wait until he drops the ball - yet again - in his sick pursuit of moderation - and then say and mean, "This is it." 'Cause those are my moments of strongest resolve, and his moments of something that approaches remorse and understanding.
One day at a time.
Thank you all.
-TC
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
TC,
Tough choices yield beautiful changes!
I agree with all the others in that you are an inspiration. Yes, you have nothing to feel guilty about. You as many others here gave the best of yourself and certainly could not have done anything else. Your 50% was more than fulfilled.
I hear quacking across the room...
Please keep posting, as coyote says, we care very much.
Hugs!
Tough choices yield beautiful changes!
I agree with all the others in that you are an inspiration. Yes, you have nothing to feel guilty about. You as many others here gave the best of yourself and certainly could not have done anything else. Your 50% was more than fulfilled.
I hear quacking across the room...
Please keep posting, as coyote says, we care very much.
Hugs!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
TC,
We do care very much. I hope I wasn't too strong or hurtful in my earlier opinion about your AH emails.
I had a strong reaction as L said similar disrespectful things about me to our friends. He assumed that I would never find out. I was told in November and with every conversation for a while kept hearing new and worse things he had said. All untrue and ALL contradictions to the love and commitment he told me and my family that he had for me.
Your post brought me back to that moment in time when I was dumbfound about the reality of what he was saying/doing. I whole-heartedly empathize with your situation and the hurt/betrayal you must be feeling. That is how I felt and I wish that on no one.
Your posts are always caring and thoughtful and I think anyone here would agree with that. Although we don't know one another, when you share details of your life and get feedback over time you become concerned for those with whom you share.
Your AH much like L needs to have some sense shaken into him and realize that smart, sucessful and kind people don't grow on trees. I hope that you find peace with whatever you decide.
CM
We do care very much. I hope I wasn't too strong or hurtful in my earlier opinion about your AH emails.
I had a strong reaction as L said similar disrespectful things about me to our friends. He assumed that I would never find out. I was told in November and with every conversation for a while kept hearing new and worse things he had said. All untrue and ALL contradictions to the love and commitment he told me and my family that he had for me.
Your post brought me back to that moment in time when I was dumbfound about the reality of what he was saying/doing. I whole-heartedly empathize with your situation and the hurt/betrayal you must be feeling. That is how I felt and I wish that on no one.
Your posts are always caring and thoughtful and I think anyone here would agree with that. Although we don't know one another, when you share details of your life and get feedback over time you become concerned for those with whom you share.
Your AH much like L needs to have some sense shaken into him and realize that smart, sucessful and kind people don't grow on trees. I hope that you find peace with whatever you decide.
CM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by ToughChoices
Right now it just seems like letting him know I'm done with this mess will elicit a huge conversation about how he's trying so hard and he hasn't had a drop in 10 days, he obviously wants me/loves me - he keeps asking to spend time with me, etc.... I know that I don't have to engage in a messy conversation or defend my choices - but I also know me - and I'm a "defender" and a "I have excellent reasons for my choices"er. It would be ugly. And there's nothing he can say that ought to change my mind at this point, so I think minimizing the conversation may be the best way to go.
L
Yield beautiful changes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,698
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
I don't know your H, but in my experience you are likely to get some form of this no matter when or how you give him the news. The pleading, promises of change, shifting of responsibility, are all part and parcel of the alcoholism. Rather than trying to control his reaction by the timing of when to let him know, how about making a plan for yourself for how you will deal with his reaction and then you are free to say what you need to say whenever you need to say it. Just a thought.
L
L
His reaction is absolutely beyond my control - thank you for the reminder.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 211
Hi TC,
I am mostly a reader on this forum but this thread really brought up some old pain.
My XAH did this too--when our marriage was very troubled, largely because of his out of control behavior, and we were on the brink of divorce.
It wasn't email, but my discovery that he was telling others about what a mess I was (and I was an emotional wreck, because one of my children was suffering a devastating health crisis). He was telling people he disliked me, that I was *frigid* (even though our sex life was still active) and calling me all kinds of awful names behind my back.
I believe we would have divorced anyway, but his complete lack of loyalty, love, and compassion for me accelerated the process.
It was very shocking and painful.
Now I can see that the betrayal, hurt, and anger I experienced following this revelation was a gift. It was a gift to no longer feel sorry for him, to feel bound by guilt and responsibility, or loyalty (the very nature of which must move in both directions, imho).
I could never trust him, at all, again. I honestly had believed he really loved and cherished me, and that his terrible behavior was part of his disorder. Seeing him as the dishonest manipulator that he is made it possible to walk away.
When I didn't feel strong enough to do it for myself, I tried to imagine what I would wish for my daughter or my sons. It became impossible for me to accept the unacceptable, bit by bit.
Prayers for strength and courage as you navigate through this pain.
I am mostly a reader on this forum but this thread really brought up some old pain.
My XAH did this too--when our marriage was very troubled, largely because of his out of control behavior, and we were on the brink of divorce.
It wasn't email, but my discovery that he was telling others about what a mess I was (and I was an emotional wreck, because one of my children was suffering a devastating health crisis). He was telling people he disliked me, that I was *frigid* (even though our sex life was still active) and calling me all kinds of awful names behind my back.
I believe we would have divorced anyway, but his complete lack of loyalty, love, and compassion for me accelerated the process.
It was very shocking and painful.
Now I can see that the betrayal, hurt, and anger I experienced following this revelation was a gift. It was a gift to no longer feel sorry for him, to feel bound by guilt and responsibility, or loyalty (the very nature of which must move in both directions, imho).
I could never trust him, at all, again. I honestly had believed he really loved and cherished me, and that his terrible behavior was part of his disorder. Seeing him as the dishonest manipulator that he is made it possible to walk away.
When I didn't feel strong enough to do it for myself, I tried to imagine what I would wish for my daughter or my sons. It became impossible for me to accept the unacceptable, bit by bit.
Prayers for strength and courage as you navigate through this pain.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: South Australia
Posts: 73
TC, thanks for sharing all this. It has helped me a lot to put into words what happened to me a year ago, in the first months after my separation.
I was doing exactely what you were doing: having regular, friendly contact with AH, and sex at least once a week.
I too found it sort of comforting to still have this last "life jacket" to hang on to after 10 years of marriage.
However, I realised at some point that this intimacy also made me emotionally very vulnerable to his manipulative and deceptive ways. Intimacy gave me the illusion that we were a couple with everything that it entails, especially trust.
After catching him lying and deceiving me on a matter that was important to me, I felt such a sense of deep despair and craziness that it truly scared me. Being intimate with him made me even more vulnerable and this was not good for my sanity.
So I stopped doing this. No explaination was needed apart from a short: "Intimacy for me also means honesty, trust and a sense of reliability, and I cannot have both with you". Sure, I miss having sex, but the sense of quietness and peace of mind is all worth it. I don't expect anything from him and that keeps me sane....
I was doing exactely what you were doing: having regular, friendly contact with AH, and sex at least once a week.
I too found it sort of comforting to still have this last "life jacket" to hang on to after 10 years of marriage.
However, I realised at some point that this intimacy also made me emotionally very vulnerable to his manipulative and deceptive ways. Intimacy gave me the illusion that we were a couple with everything that it entails, especially trust.
After catching him lying and deceiving me on a matter that was important to me, I felt such a sense of deep despair and craziness that it truly scared me. Being intimate with him made me even more vulnerable and this was not good for my sanity.
So I stopped doing this. No explaination was needed apart from a short: "Intimacy for me also means honesty, trust and a sense of reliability, and I cannot have both with you". Sure, I miss having sex, but the sense of quietness and peace of mind is all worth it. I don't expect anything from him and that keeps me sane....
Yield beautiful changes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,698
Originally Posted by Lucy06
Intimacy gave me the illusion that we were a couple with everything that it entails, especially trust.
I do think that I've been using intimacy to maintain the sense of closeness that I used to feel with Peter every day. As that trust faded, I just filled in the gap with more sex - cause, if I timed it right, I could fool myself pretty well.
I fear this sounds pathetic and desperate.
It's just really hard when you USED to share honest, intimate love with someone, only to see that love slowly devolve into need and emptiness. And it sucks to know that I participated in that devolution, too.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Hi TC...
The only pathetic thing would be to realize that and then keep the status quo, knowing you are hurting yourself.
With these realizations you have the power to choose something else and for that I am happy for you... I think everyone here agrees it is really hard... but we will be with you all the way.
Your clarity and focus will be very helpful and I am sure you will go through this with grace and strength... just remember you are far from alone. I admire you for taking the plunge and I wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and sending good vibes, asking the HP to take care of you.
The only pathetic thing would be to realize that and then keep the status quo, knowing you are hurting yourself.
With these realizations you have the power to choose something else and for that I am happy for you... I think everyone here agrees it is really hard... but we will be with you all the way.
Your clarity and focus will be very helpful and I am sure you will go through this with grace and strength... just remember you are far from alone. I admire you for taking the plunge and I wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and sending good vibes, asking the HP to take care of you.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: South Australia
Posts: 73
TC, it's all a long process.... The worse thing for me was to realise and accept that I too was manipulating the situations to fulfill my own needs and agenda. I am disapointed when I see that in myself, especially after thinking that I was the major victim of manipulation....
As for now, I don't see how I can have any truthful relationship with my AH because everything seems so twisted, sick and unauthentic.
As for now, I don't see how I can have any truthful relationship with my AH because everything seems so twisted, sick and unauthentic.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 107
Another thank you for sharing your story, your honesty is amazing.
I can identify too. You sound very in control and like you are getting what you need in some parts and you are so insightful. I've spent the last few months in a casual, firendly but requiring no commitment from him relationship with my ex now and I have to be honest compared the the brutal and unbearable pain of no contact it has been wonderful! But in reality it's far from it. A good friend said to me recently, if you think you felt hurt the first time he walked away how will you feel when despite all your self improvement....he still walks away. That made me think, I've been kidding myself that I'm getting on and doing things for me and in some senses I genuinely have but deep down I know that I have been using this contact and 'relationship' just to prevent myself from going through the hurt I probably need to.
He has just been continuing to drink just as heavily, live at his hassle free parents and yet spend a little hungover time with us and parade me (and my stress related weight loss) around at the odd function. Me? I've been lapping it up and I am really starting to hate myself for it now.
Keep taking good care of yourself and do what you want to do for you but listen very carefully to what your instinct may be trying to tell you also, please.
xxxxxxxxx
I can identify too. You sound very in control and like you are getting what you need in some parts and you are so insightful. I've spent the last few months in a casual, firendly but requiring no commitment from him relationship with my ex now and I have to be honest compared the the brutal and unbearable pain of no contact it has been wonderful! But in reality it's far from it. A good friend said to me recently, if you think you felt hurt the first time he walked away how will you feel when despite all your self improvement....he still walks away. That made me think, I've been kidding myself that I'm getting on and doing things for me and in some senses I genuinely have but deep down I know that I have been using this contact and 'relationship' just to prevent myself from going through the hurt I probably need to.
He has just been continuing to drink just as heavily, live at his hassle free parents and yet spend a little hungover time with us and parade me (and my stress related weight loss) around at the odd function. Me? I've been lapping it up and I am really starting to hate myself for it now.
Keep taking good care of yourself and do what you want to do for you but listen very carefully to what your instinct may be trying to tell you also, please.
xxxxxxxxx
Freed from the anguish
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 124
((((TC))))
A few weeks ago I posted how I was shutting my eyes tight to the problems stbXRAH and I had, and was spending some time WITH him, after setting boundary after boundary of NO CONTACT because I did not want to be mistreated any longer. He didn't respect those boundaries, and I finally gave in, believing the quacking, believing his blame-shifting, and in fear of losing something (I thought was) special/precious. After 5 days of him back in my life, my eyes were WIDE OPEN, and the pain of the realization flooded over me.
I have since made the decision that I need to no longer engage in any conversations with him, that I need to move forward with what I know is the only HEALTHY, right thing for me, and I've contacted my attorney to request the final divorce hearing date be set so this can be finished. It hurts like no pain I've ever felt before, but I know going through this pain will bring me a whole new healing, a whole new peace and joy from a disgusting burden being lifted out of my life.
((((TC)))) I'm right here with you in this one. Keep moving forward for YOU (and your son).
A few weeks ago I posted how I was shutting my eyes tight to the problems stbXRAH and I had, and was spending some time WITH him, after setting boundary after boundary of NO CONTACT because I did not want to be mistreated any longer. He didn't respect those boundaries, and I finally gave in, believing the quacking, believing his blame-shifting, and in fear of losing something (I thought was) special/precious. After 5 days of him back in my life, my eyes were WIDE OPEN, and the pain of the realization flooded over me.
I have since made the decision that I need to no longer engage in any conversations with him, that I need to move forward with what I know is the only HEALTHY, right thing for me, and I've contacted my attorney to request the final divorce hearing date be set so this can be finished. It hurts like no pain I've ever felt before, but I know going through this pain will bring me a whole new healing, a whole new peace and joy from a disgusting burden being lifted out of my life.
((((TC)))) I'm right here with you in this one. Keep moving forward for YOU (and your son).
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: looking for the sun in cold MN
Posts: 775
Originally Posted by nowwhat
I believe we would have divorced anyway, but his complete lack of loyalty, love, and compassion for me accelerated the process.
It was very shocking and painful.
Now I can see that the betrayal, hurt, and anger I experienced following this revelation was a gift. It was a gift to no longer feel sorry for him, to feel bound by guilt and responsibility, or loyalty (the very nature of which must move in both directions, imho).
I could never trust him, at all, again. I honestly had believed he really loved and cherished me, and that his terrible behavior was part of his disorder. Seeing him as the dishonest manipulator that he is made it possible to walk away.
It was very shocking and painful.
Now I can see that the betrayal, hurt, and anger I experienced following this revelation was a gift. It was a gift to no longer feel sorry for him, to feel bound by guilt and responsibility, or loyalty (the very nature of which must move in both directions, imho).
I could never trust him, at all, again. I honestly had believed he really loved and cherished me, and that his terrible behavior was part of his disorder. Seeing him as the dishonest manipulator that he is made it possible to walk away.
Nowwhat's take on it is something I can relate to. I never did get the begging to come back, the professions of undying love- rather- I got betrayal and words that hurt so deeply that I was sometimes jealous of those of you with significant others who did plead and beg. I need to think about that more fully. I also have to admit that his behavior made it easier- if I can say that- to proceed with a divorce. It's still not easy. It's the hardest thing I have ever been through, but looking at STBXAH's behavior the way nowwhat has- as a gift- makes sense. Painful- so painful, but you will find that these revelations- the emails, his relapses, his disappearing for 3 days- are all gifts- if you choose to see them that way.
I am thinking of you today TC. ((()))
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Incredible Thread....
TC, I am SO sorry you are having to go through this, I just read it (been out of town seeing my best girl, who, by the way I had to leave my "A" to find) but as soon as I read it, this leapt to mind.
YouTube - Tell It Like It Is - Aaron Neville
You are NOT a toy!!!!
You are NOT a "pasa tiempo" (a girl to just "pass time" with)
You are a beautiful, wonderful, human being that deserves a whole human being that can give you 100% in return.
Period.
No discussion...no explanation...no "arguing the facts" or the "story" or keep biting "the hook" that active A's keep "baiting" so we "go back" or "stay" way past time it's time to go.
When I finally realized I deserved the best that this world had to offer the first thing I had to do was "take out the trash" to make room to allow "the best" to appear, some of "the trash" was "external", some was "Internal" and it's still something I have to do on a Daily Basis using the tools of recovery I have learned in The Program but I do have one tidbit to offer:
Relationships are a HELL of a lot better when there are two people in them, not just one doing all "the work"
(the sex is better too by the way when it's with someone who actually cares about you....like...ummm.....a LOT better)
I would like to stick to "I" and "me" messages here....hmmm....OK...Got it.
I think you should stop settling Girl, you have too much to offer.
TC, I am SO sorry you are having to go through this, I just read it (been out of town seeing my best girl, who, by the way I had to leave my "A" to find) but as soon as I read it, this leapt to mind.
If you want something to play with
Go and find yourself a toy
Baby my time is too expensive
And I'm not a little boy
If you are serious
Don't play with my heart
It makes me furious
But if you want me to love you
Then a baby I will, girl you know that I will
Tell it like it is
Don't be ashamed to let your conscience be your guide
But I know deep down inside me
I believe you love me, forget your foolish pride
Life is too short to have sorrow
You may be here today and gone tomorrow
You might as well get what you want
So go on and live, baby go on and live
Tell it like it is
I'm nothing to play with
Go and find yourself a toy
But I... Tell it like it is
My time is too expensive and I'm not your little boy
Go and find yourself a toy
Baby my time is too expensive
And I'm not a little boy
If you are serious
Don't play with my heart
It makes me furious
But if you want me to love you
Then a baby I will, girl you know that I will
Tell it like it is
Don't be ashamed to let your conscience be your guide
But I know deep down inside me
I believe you love me, forget your foolish pride
Life is too short to have sorrow
You may be here today and gone tomorrow
You might as well get what you want
So go on and live, baby go on and live
Tell it like it is
I'm nothing to play with
Go and find yourself a toy
But I... Tell it like it is
My time is too expensive and I'm not your little boy
You are NOT a toy!!!!
You are NOT a "pasa tiempo" (a girl to just "pass time" with)
You are a beautiful, wonderful, human being that deserves a whole human being that can give you 100% in return.
Period.
No discussion...no explanation...no "arguing the facts" or the "story" or keep biting "the hook" that active A's keep "baiting" so we "go back" or "stay" way past time it's time to go.
When I finally realized I deserved the best that this world had to offer the first thing I had to do was "take out the trash" to make room to allow "the best" to appear, some of "the trash" was "external", some was "Internal" and it's still something I have to do on a Daily Basis using the tools of recovery I have learned in The Program but I do have one tidbit to offer:
Relationships are a HELL of a lot better when there are two people in them, not just one doing all "the work"
(the sex is better too by the way when it's with someone who actually cares about you....like...ummm.....a LOT better)
I would like to stick to "I" and "me" messages here....hmmm....OK...Got it.
I think you should stop settling Girl, you have too much to offer.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by Dreamer999
Hi Ago, what do you mean by TWO people in a relation ? What?? Many times I just do not get you !! lol
(((((TC)))))
(((((TC)))))
Relationships are a HELL of a lot better when there are two people in them, not just one doing all "the work"
It actually can be so severe that you DO end up being "the only one in the relationship", and the other person is just sort of "along for the ride" or "for what they can GET from "the relationship", not really a participant at all.
Quite often this leads to one person being the "designated patient", which in and of itself is an extremely unhealthy dynamic for both parties that deserves a "googling" all it's own.
You see here on many posts that being lonely in a relationship is worse then being lonely while being "alone", that's what that means usually.
I hope that clarifies it a bit for you.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Hey Ago, I think our dreamer is j/k 
But thanks for the clarification anyway. Though all SR threads bring out our wisdom, this thread has brought out some really brilliant - and painful - and strengthening - revelations. Everybody be tender with themselves, K ?
:ghug
But thanks for the clarification anyway. Though all SR threads bring out our wisdom, this thread has brought out some really brilliant - and painful - and strengthening - revelations. Everybody be tender with themselves, K ?
:ghug
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Middle of the U.S.
Posts: 85
I was also regularly intimate with my x during the first couple of months of our separation. I have no regrets, as I was doing it because I happen to enjoy sex with another person and wasn't ready to bring someone else into my life. I imagine he was telling his friends he had the perfect arrangement too, but I don't care because it was working for me as well. One thing I've observed is sex means something different to everyone and individual's appetites for it varies to the extreme.
I will say I wasn't able to bring myself to file for divorce until I severed that tie. It also enabled me to see him more objectively, as I no longer had any reason to maintain a relationship with him.
I will say I wasn't able to bring myself to file for divorce until I severed that tie. It also enabled me to see him more objectively, as I no longer had any reason to maintain a relationship with him.
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