ToughChoices

At this point in my recovery, I often BRISTLE when I am accused of being controlling. I have done a lot of work to address these tendencies, and it's hard for me to hear that work being discounted or ignored.

But it's certainly not doing me much good to explain and defend my progress.
It cultivates this sense of separateness and superiority in me, and I haven't historically found those traits to be helpful.

I'm working on being less defensive when confronted or accused of being controlling.
I am not a saint.
I have not transcended the mortal plain.
I am human, and I'm really beginning to question if it isn't in my very nature to want other people to do things "my way". I'm not saying that this is a healthy desire, just that it seems very natural, I see it in other people, in my child, in the world around me ALL THE TIME.

Perhaps I can work on accepting that I do want to control. That it is in my nature, and sometimes emerges - even when I am trying very hard to keep the tendency in check. It underlies much of my thinking.
I must admit, I would like my boundaries to be appreciated. I would like them to inspire the A to make certain decisions. But I accept that they may not. And that's okay.

If I make a boundary that is helpful for myself, and I am accused of being controlling, I aim to say, "There's probably some truth to that," and let it go.


Any other thoughts on control and boundaries and human nature?
It's an interesting topic for me.

Thanks everyone!
-TC

LaTeeDa

For me, I think it is the ability to let go of the outcome. We all have desires. We all wish things would go a certain way, or people would behave a certain way. I think it's okay to express those desires or wishes, as long as I can let it go. Desiring is okay. It becomes controlling when my mind starts spinning and scheming ways to "make" it happen. When I behave in passive-agressive mode to try and manipulate others. Or when I cannot accept what is.

Others may accuse me of being controlling, but only I know if I really am. By removing myself from someone's company, for example, I may simply be protecting myself, or I may be trying to manipulate them. They do not know my intent. Only I do. And I am the only one, ultimately, that I need answer to.

L

ToughChoices

The passive-aggressiveness is stealthy and unhelpful. I guess it met my needs for a long time, because it sure pops up now. It's my preferred form of manipulation - I've really got to pay attention!

It's helped me to make note of how distasteful I find passive-aggressive behaviors in other people. I would SO much rather deal with someone who was directly upset with me - who stated clearly what they thought the problem was and how they would like to deal with it - than with someone who sighed and huffed and denied that there was a problem.

I think I grew up in a household where it was unacceptable for women/girls to be direct. I honed the "read my mind and adjust your behavior accordingly" to a fine art at an early age.
I can now see that my mother was an excellent instructor!

FormerDoormat

While this works in many situations, it doesn't apply to all. For example, if Martin Luther King had chosen to just let the flow of life carry him along as suggested above, the U.S. might still be nowhere in terms of equal rights. He spoke up about oppression and everyone--not just African Americans--reaped the rewards.

If the Equal Rights Movement or the Woman's Sufferage Movement hadn't come along, perhaps women would still be unable to vote or hold down a job outside the home and the U.S. would have to wait another 100 years or so to have its first African American President.

Change comes about when people speak up despite what others think of their ideas. There was a time when I would have been afraid to speak my mind for fear that others would reproach me or think less of me or for fear that others would find it distasteful if I went against the flow. Today I'm not afraid to speak my mind or listen to feedback from others and if others choose to view something I've said as a means of control or a passive aggressive move (not saying that anyone here is accusing me of this--just adding my two cents to the discussion), then that's their perrogative.

FormerDoormat

We're talking about control and passive aggressive tendencies that may or may not be associated with it, right? I'm sharing my opinion on the subject.

Still Waters

I totally agree with LaTeeDa here. And if I am only protecting myself and get accused of manipulating - well, so be it.

Still Waters

Yes. I've been trying to avoid it myself but it seems to keep popping back up. I think I'll take a break from SR for a while. Maybe it will have settled down by then.

ToughChoices

Thanks for this, anvilhead. It puts into words the kind of belief that I'm choosing to embrace - especially when it comes to my addict.

Certainly there is a time for swimming against the cultural current, for fighting for rights, and declaring independence. Right now I'm thinking more about relationships, though.

Acceptance doesn't mean that action is no longer required, I just choose to trust that the natural current of goodness and abundance will move me to action when the time is right.

-TC

DesertEyes

Thanx for keeping this thread _respectful_. These are important issues to discuss and if everybody can keep their cool and not get heated we can all get along.

and yes, if it gets heated again we will close it again. We don't get tired of closing threads, but if it comes around my bedtime I'll stop closing threads and just ask people to take a couple days vacation.

Mike
Moderator, SoberRecovery

embraced2000

i bristled often, too, when it was gently pointed out to me by my al-anonians that perhaps i was holding onto control.

very slowly, over a long period of time, i had learned to become controlling just as an attempt to to survive my living situation with an alcoholic. i was in total control.....he surely wasn't able to do anything....so it was all left up to me.

in time, i just took charge, made lists, and gave directives to everyone around me. i was so used to cleaning up the "messes" of chaos while living in an alcoholic household. it spilled over into my life in every way.

i always thought i was assigned a mission and it was my responsibility to straighten it all out and bring things back in line.

control became second nature to me. it was hard to recognize it, and harder still to begin letting go of that control.

who was i that i thought i had the supreme wisdom to always know the right way to resolve situations?

it began as a means of survival and died as a means of recovery.

ToughChoices

I'm thinking about how much better I feel when I "let go" of outcomes and just make the next best choice for myself.

I want my alcoholic to ___________.
He chooses not to ___________.
If I argue, guilt, cajole him into doing what I want (big or small: where to eat for dinner, what to buy me for Christmas, how to handle his chemical dependency issues), I rob myself of peace.
If I say "OK" to what is and do the "next wise thing", good stuff comes my way.

I find a beautiful, affordable, safe place to live.
I find financial assistance/opportunities.
I find friendships with people who enrich my life.
I find family that will help and offer me support.
I find opportunities to serve others and cultivate gratitude.

Blessings emerge.
So, it's fine to want to determine the course of my life, but I must humbly admit that I do not know the twists and turns that will be a part of that life - especially when other people are involved.

I just had this feeling of such happiness wash over me.
What a blessing to be alive! To learn and hurt and grow and change and smile! It is so exhilarating to feel all these feelings and have all of these experiences!

I will try to remember that exhilaration the next time I am writhing and fighting.

-TC

GiveLove

Dead on there TC, gosh.

As an ACOA, my first gut-instinct in any situation is to exercise control so that I can prevent any further pain in my life. (and of course we know how well that works, in an unpredictable universe)

Through recovery, I've learned that my first instinct doesn't have to be my final instinct -- when I feel like things are not going my way, I can close my mouth, unclench my fists, and listen. Short of someone with a handgun bearing down on me, nothing is going to fall on my head in the few minutes it takes to do that.

I can also remind myself -- and it has to happen more often than I'd like, sigh -- to just let go, knowing that if things take an unexpected turn, I'm strong enough to handle any pain that I may have to slog through and it's probably "clean pain" anyway -- the kind that's necessary for me to grow as a person.

Very thought-provoking. I feel like journaling about this....thanks for the inspiration, all.

Hugs
GL

Reminder

Hi TC:

I don't see control as being the root of the problem, but rather a symptom of the problem. The ego cannot accept what is and so employs control as a defense mechanism. However, control is just one aspect among many forms of egoic patterns of behavior.

As far as control being part of human nature, I don't see it as being such. Control is part of the egoic mindset that afflicts most of mankind these days, but the ego is not who we are. It's the false sense of self, an imposter who has set up shop in our minds. As I have been lurking in the forum lately, I can see very clearly the damage that ego can do, the drama that it loves to create, the attention that it craves even though it's never enough. And it is never enough.

I am not an addict, nor am I codependent, nor am I an alcoholic. I am nobody's victim. My ego may want to identify with all of that, but I am not my ego. By seeing the ego in others here in this forum and recognizing that the ego I see in them is merely a reflection of my own ego has been very enlightening.

Peace.

GiveLove

I am interested in your point of view here, reminder, as I see control all around me -- in nearly every person I know, including myself (this is speaking of what IS, not what SHOULD BE).

People project a certain image so they can control who reacts to them and how; they use tone of voice, emotional button-pushing, and punishment to affect others' behavior toward them; they alter what they give and what they take to maintain control of people and situations; and on and on. In every aspect of human behavior, throughout time, there always has been a desire to control our surroundings so that we can survive predators, find food and shelter, and live life on our own terms,and it continues to this day (all six-odd billion of us.)

Here we're discussing working on not controlling in alcoholic relationships, which I think is noble work, but as much as I'd like to agree with you, I still find it impossible to deny that control is happening all around us.

But perhaps you are defining control a different way?

cmc

TC...the boundaries you mention are not about being a controlling person. Being a controller is about controlling and/or manipulating others.

This is just another example of why I find the Serenity Prayer such a wonderful recovery tool. "Courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference," which btw applies to interpersonal as well as the political and social topics referred to in this thread. Social change that comes about by pure control is what I would describe as tyranny.

The kinds of social changes we have been blessed to see over time have come about by awareness and the willingness to do what is necessary to bring about that change to protect, for example, a general population ...whether through peaceful means or even wars. "Courage to change" those things that are destructive to individuals and entire societie takes tremendous effort and sacrifice.

Learning to live with and amid others who are different than me takes a great deal acceptance and understanding (of myself as well) but controlling never works for my benefit nor theirs.

Without getting religious and discussing what 'sin' is , I think it's plain to see in a study over time, over geographic and cultural lines that it is 'in fact' human nature or what seems right, that causes all the problems of the world. There's plenty of material to prove that point and it isn't pretty.

People are full of flaws...even Mother Theresa admitted to her own issues. It's in my nature to sometimes do the wrong thing, make the wrong choices etc.. The reason I need a HP and that I need to work on my own recovery is due to my flawed thinking and lack of experience; but I can change and grow.

Being a controller was the LAST thing I ever thought that I was. I was sure that the counselor was wrong about me...NO WAY would I be a controller like my mom was. I spent my teen and early adult years trying to be the opposite of that. Although I learned about my controlling nature in counseling; I continue learn most of what I need to correct it both here and in Al-Anon.


I have no right to control anyone else but myself. My boundary controls nobody but me. Period.

GiveLove

CMC, thanks for your reply to TC, because I think it may have inadvertently answered my question too. GL

Reminder

You say, "I see control all around me". I am saying, I see ego all around me and even in me. That is the difference. Control is power, and as such, is neither good nor bad. Wealth, power, beauty, etc. is neutral. The problem arises when ego identifies with form. So, for example, if a woman's ego is closely identified with her body, any enhancement to her body (boob job comes to mind) will also enhance her ego (They call it self-esteem). Same holds true for wealth, power, or any other form. Unfortunately, all that the ego identifies with is transitory and so the ego carries within it the seeds of its own destruction.

What I didn't understand for many years is that the ego can also identify with pain and suffering. Normally, pain and suffering weakens the ego as the form that the ego has identified with for so long begins to fade. For a moment, the true self may emerge from the shadows of the ego and enlightenment may occur. However, in many people, like myself, pain and suffering did not serve to weaken the ego, but rather strengthen it. I became a victim and if I wasn't being victimized by somebody, then I victimized myself. My identity was wrapped up in my pain and suffering and so the more I suffered, the more I enhanced my ego. My journey has been to disentangle my ego, to know who I am not, so that I may know who I am. I am not an alcoholic, nor am I an addict, nor am I codependent. I am nobody's victim.

To conclude and summarize, for me it's not all about control, but rather how my ego identifies with control or anything else for that matter. I am not denying that control is all around us. I am not sure if I answered your question or not.

Peace.

GiveLove

Thanks for clarifying that to me. I wasn't lifting the veil to see this behind it - thanks for a different perspective.