Barbara52

Would I be in here if I had not? I had alcoholic parents, I have alcoholic brothers and I was married to an alcoholic.

Words have meanings. Ultimatim is very diffrent in meaning than choice. One implies control. One does not.


Absolutely!

I think you just aren't seeing the control issue that I do in what I see as a control loaded word: ultimatim. Otherwise we agree on it being right to make the request to not drink.

BTW I also think its inappropriate for someone involved with an A to make the ultimatim quit drinking or else also.

Kimmieh

I can understand how a recovering addict would have difficulties with a partner drinking around him and I think it is reasonable of him to ask if you could not do it. I would be happy to give up having a drink in the house should my partner request this (don't I wish...).

I have been thinking about this and I really don't know...part of me understands that he wants to live entirely alcohol-free and that includes you not drinking, on the other hand you have a right to do what you enjoy. Personally, I wouldn't mind giving up drinking at home, but to commit to not going out with friends and have a few drinks ever, to me, would be too much. I think if I gave in to that, I might start to resent him for limiting me because of his issues.

Not drinking around him is not "drinking behind his back." This is tough, really. I think I would want to know why it is so important to him that I don't drink at all. Bleh, I can really see both sides here, so I guess I am not much help...

Kimmieh

But it's fine to say "I am sorry, but I cannot live with your drinking and have to leave you." Ultimately, the consequences are the same. It's just not phrased as a command, but as an explanation of what I cannot deal with and that shows more respect and less control.

denny57

In my view, the outcomes are the same. If I like to have a drink and someone stops dating me because of it, that is not a consequence of my drinking, that is their choice and I respect it.

equinessa

Mmmmmmm. Interesting discussion. I want to throw another idea into the mix. What is the difference between setting boundaries and issuing ultimatums. Is setting boundaries an attempt to control?

I suppose one sets boundaries and when they are broken one issues the ultimatum.....the last boundary.....the wall.

But I don't think issuing an ultimatum has anything to do with control. I think it is communicating about consequences in advance. "If you do this, I'm leaving".......although I think that if it gets to the ultimatum stage there's already trouble simmering, otherwise would be a simple "Would you mind not doing X as it bugs me"......."OK Sorry" .....end of story.

No ultimatums are only issued when there has been a transgression committed that both parties understand is not to the satisfaction of one of the parties involved. It imples that there has been communication re the transgression in the past.

What do you all think?

Barbara52

Nope, boundaries are not aimed at control of another's behavior. I set boundaries to define what I need in my life, what acceptable behaviors and actions are for me, and set what actions I will do for myself to protect myself. The person who violates those boundaries is free to continue the behaviors I find unacceptible.

An untimatim is aimed at changing the other person's behavior.

GiveLove

And yet sometimes, when we get it third-party like on SR, we don't know how the conversation was worded, or what the thought processes of the non-SR person were.

If he said, "If you continue to drink, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to leave this relationship," then that is a boundary, right?

But if he said, "If you don't stop drinking, I'm leaving you. " then that would be an ultimatum.

And there's lots of gray in between.

Not much difference between those two statements, but the thought behind them is like night and day. One I do for me, a statement of fact. The other I do to control you. Very hard for us to say, as we weren't there, and even if we were, we are not mindreaders.

Stubborn1

LOL boy we like to tear things apart here. Too funny.

GiveLove

It's kind of at the center of the original post -- if this person is delivering an ultimatum and trying to control, then the advice is much different than if he's just protecting his own serenity. We get a lot more "out there" than this one!

LaTeeDa

I have to say that learning the difference between boundaries (changing the things I can) and ultimatums (attempting to control others) was a huge step for me in recovery. It may seem like splitting hairs, and it's really impossible to know what someone else's motivation is, but recognizing the difference in my own thought process makes all the difference.

L

denny57

I don't share my boundaries with anyone as rules for their behavior. I decide what I can and cannot live with, what I want or don't want in my life, and then make choices accordingly.

I actually set boundaries with xAH very early in the relationship. He knew where I stood on certain issues. I then CHOSE to keep changing my boundaries to keep the relationship. So who taught him to treat me the way he did? I did.

The difference today is with ME. I've learned through my own recovery that I will never compromise my standards again for someone else. That is different from mutually agreed upon compromise. If someone crosses my boundary today, I take the action I told myself I would and that is it. It doesn't close the door to that person forever, but it does say I respect myself and I expect respect in return.

This has worked for me in wonderful ways.

itiswhatitis...

interesting...

i can tell my husband *if you don't stop drinking i will leave the relationship* - that is a boundary - my husband can tell me - *if you drink i'll leave* - it's an ultimatum - i guess it's really the motives of who is stating their boundary - but really it is one in the same...

as for myself - when we decided *because of a son's probation* to not have alcohol in the house i didn't mind not having anything alcohol - a glass of wine or drink - now two and half years later it's just easier to not have anything to drink - it works for me ...

s

denny57

In my book, that's an ultimatum.

Barbara52

To make that a boundary I would say to myself I cannot live the life I want with someone who is drinking. If I find myself in the living with someone who is drinking I will do X to make my life better.

Notice how I am not telling the other person what to do. The focus is on me, what I want in my life, what I do not what in my life and what I will do, all without the element of telling someone else how to act. That is what makes it a boundary IMO.

FormerDoormat

From Dictionary.com:

Ultimatum - A final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force.

Boundary - Something that indicates bounds or limits; a limiting or bounding line.

The way I see it, an ultimatum involves force; a boundary doesn't. In other words, an ultimatum is an attempt to control another; a boundary is an attempt to protect myself.

JustMeInWI

IMHO - Boundaries are around your personal property - yourself - your own "yard". You determine what is acceptable to happen to yourself. And if you choose to not allow it to happen, you take actions on yourself (insert serenity prayer here for clarification). An ultimatim is setting up boundaries/control on someone else's property and requiring THEM to take an action on THEMSELVES. That is their business to change themselves, not yours.

There can be confusion on ultimatims: There is the 'boundary ultimatim' that says, "Here is my boundary for me and my health/serenity/sanity. If you cannot respect this boundary, I choose to take an action on/with myself to protect me (i.e. leave)." Then there is the 'control ultimatim' that says, "Here is where your boundaries should be and if you don't live within them and change you, I'm going to make you do this/that thing (or I'm going to take some action to try to make you live what I feel your boundaries should be)."

Again - all IMHO.

I am learning daily and first hand about this difference because as I started setting boundaries FOR MYSELF (what behaviors I was willing to accept "in my yard" from my AH), he began to accuse me of being controlling. He started telling me (and others about me), "Lately with you it's "My way or the highway."

It took me a while to sort through my feelings and thoughts on the matter. But as I learned more about verbal and emotional abuse, I realized what was happening, began to look hard and deep at my motives behind my boundaries, and what it was I was actually setting boundaries around. Then it was clear and I could tell him with confidence: I'm NOT setting boundaries around you or your life/actions. I am setting boundaries only around me and letting you (and others) know what I accept as appropriate treatment to me. Not to mention, I was the one who moved out of the house. I did not kick him out. I don't have children, so it was not as big a deal for me to go elsewhere.

denny57

anvil, I was just thinking of that yesterday when trying to come up with a boundary that isn't about drinking.

I will not date a smoker. Not a moral thing, not a judgmental thing. I'm allergic, I think the stench is horrific and I don't want to live with it. I wouldn't say to someone, stop smoking and I'll date you. I make the choice not to date them, and I don't need to tell them why. I'm not out to get them to stop smoking. I understand I could be missing out on a great person, but it's an important enough issue to ME that I accept that possibility.

Jazzman

My first wife and I both quit a crack habit shortly after we were married and if one of us was still using it would have made it next to impossible for the other to quit. It's friggen hard enough with out it in your face. A couple years later S quit smoking the day she found out she was pregnant with our first. I quit smoking in front of her and in the house out of respect for her struggle. I've been in the OPs situation too, when M came home from rehab this was a alcohol free home and I quit out of respect for her struggle. Going on almost two years now I quit smoking and if I had a SO that smoked I would be a little pissed if I had to ask her to take that outside. The world could use a little more consideration.

Mark75

This is a fascinating thread and has gone through some surprising twists and turns and has really helped me understand the dynamic that's going on with my wife and I.

I hope you don't mind a newly RAH (12 weeks) posting here in FAFofA. See my previous posts above.

The light bulb went on for me. My boundary regarding her enjoying her one drink at the end of the day is that I will stay in the same room if I am feeling healthy and happy and the knot doesn't tie itself in my stomach. If I'm not feeling healthy, I go to another room until she's done or I go to bed...

Light bulb moment... I was trying to understand why she gets upset, sometimes (she really did Sunday nite...) when I choose to go to another room. Since I am not her, and I can't read her mind, I really don't know why she gets so upset some nights (as she doesn't know why I am ok or not ok with it on any given nite...). Does she feel guilty? Would she like to sit with me as much as I would with her? Does she resent the changes in her life my recovery is causing? But sometimes her reaction seems out of proportion... but now I get that she may also think that I am trying to control her by my setting my boundary... (duh...)

Light bulb moment number two... Could it be that I am trying to control her??

Mark

GiveLove

Wow, Mark.

I'd be interested in what your heart tells you about that last question....

What a fascinating thread. I learn something new here every day, I swear.