What's in this for me?
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Join Date: May 2008
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What's in this for me?
As I have turned the focus more on me, and am working hard to learn about myself, I asked the hard question, "What am I getting out of this?" I know that people don't just continue the same painful behavior unless they are getting something from it.
Once again the book "How Did I Get Here?" by Barbara DeAngelis helped answer this. It's not exactly what I wanted to hear, but I think it was right on target.
1. Attention..........If we remain confused for long enough we get to be a martyr.
2. Advice.........Our daily routine becomes asking the people around us for their opinion about what we should do.........Constantly asking for advice to help us with our confusion is a way to remain a child and avoid growing up.
3. Addictions.........Staying confused is a great way to stay addicted.
4. Avoidance........This is the biggest negative payoff of confusion......Preoccupied with being confused, we get to avoid whatever it is that we don't want to face.
We avoid the truth.
We avoid change.
We avoid facing our fears,
We avoid disappointing people we love.
We avoid taking risks.
We avoid confrontation with others.
We avoid reality.
We avoid leaping off the cliff.
It's a good thing today was a holiday because I wouldn't have gotten a thing done at work! Awesome book.........tomorrow I'll finish it up and get to the part that talks about changing these patterns.
Once again the book "How Did I Get Here?" by Barbara DeAngelis helped answer this. It's not exactly what I wanted to hear, but I think it was right on target.
1. Attention..........If we remain confused for long enough we get to be a martyr.
2. Advice.........Our daily routine becomes asking the people around us for their opinion about what we should do.........Constantly asking for advice to help us with our confusion is a way to remain a child and avoid growing up.
3. Addictions.........Staying confused is a great way to stay addicted.
4. Avoidance........This is the biggest negative payoff of confusion......Preoccupied with being confused, we get to avoid whatever it is that we don't want to face.
We avoid the truth.
We avoid change.
We avoid facing our fears,
We avoid disappointing people we love.
We avoid taking risks.
We avoid confrontation with others.
We avoid reality.
We avoid leaping off the cliff.
It's a good thing today was a holiday because I wouldn't have gotten a thing done at work! Awesome book.........tomorrow I'll finish it up and get to the part that talks about changing these patterns.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 149
avoidance for me, too. thanks for this. people always have said you must be getting something. i would think, i guess theyre right but now im not sure what.
what i got was to be in the same place so i didnt have to work through some of the harder phases of the grief cycle - such as acceptance... i was avoiding them. until i was ready, all in due time.
and avoiding change.
what i got was to be in the same place so i didnt have to work through some of the harder phases of the grief cycle - such as acceptance... i was avoiding them. until i was ready, all in due time.
and avoiding change.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 598
Nothing but Pain............
I plan on buying this book this weekend. I am getting nothing but pain out of this and have to ask myself-- why do I think I deserve this? Deep rooted insecurities in me.....mmmmmm... Need to think why!
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
i used to get so p/o'ed when my sponsor would suggest that i was getting something out of it......."it" being the mental anguish i was in for being in a relationship with my alcoholic husband.
i used to just scream at her.....what the hades do you think i could possible be getting out of it?
some ugly truths came out about myself when i started working the al-anon steps.
but a whole lot of joy, too. i learned about myself for the first time in over 50 years. i learned how to love myself again. i learned how to forgive myself. i learned how to re-parent myself.
i used to just scream at her.....what the hades do you think i could possible be getting out of it?
some ugly truths came out about myself when i started working the al-anon steps.
but a whole lot of joy, too. i learned about myself for the first time in over 50 years. i learned how to love myself again. i learned how to forgive myself. i learned how to re-parent myself.
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
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Oh my,
I just had this conversation yesterday
I finally wound up I was "addicted" to the "wall of seduction" that came after every break up, and the interesting thing was "the wall of seduction" was strictly an emotional one, promising me everything I had ever wanted in a relationship....my eyes would glaze over and I would slowly walk back into the "fire" heedless of all my friends saying, "no no no don't go Andrew, think it through"
I literally couldn't.
talk about powerless.
I just had this conversation yesterday
I finally wound up I was "addicted" to the "wall of seduction" that came after every break up, and the interesting thing was "the wall of seduction" was strictly an emotional one, promising me everything I had ever wanted in a relationship....my eyes would glaze over and I would slowly walk back into the "fire" heedless of all my friends saying, "no no no don't go Andrew, think it through"
I literally couldn't.
talk about powerless.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Oooh! Oooh! I was "attention" big time.
As long as I was suffering, I had everybody's attention. Look at me! Look how unfair this all is!! Look how unhappy I am - somebody come save me!
I believe that there's always something we're getting out of the bad situations we keep ourselves in.
And when we find it, that has the power to set us free.
barbara deangelis = one smart lady
As long as I was suffering, I had everybody's attention. Look at me! Look how unfair this all is!! Look how unhappy I am - somebody come save me!
I believe that there's always something we're getting out of the bad situations we keep ourselves in.
And when we find it, that has the power to set us free.
barbara deangelis = one smart lady
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: MO
Posts: 743
Mine's been advice and avoidance........I have a friend who deserves to be elevated to sainthood after all she has listened to! But I guess she had a part in doing the listening/giving advice too.
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This thread and the ideas it brought forth have been absolutely stuck in my mind, along with another thread, until I finally had an Aha moment, now this is just for me, but I changed this next bit and found it totally frightening and applicable, look closely
/sigh
Codependency -is- addiction (to me)
it's being addicted to an addicted person...
oof
/Andrew looks for some chocolate and wanders away to watch Oprah
Codependency means always having to say you are sorry à and finally, when being sorry is no longer good enough for others who have been repeatedly hurt by the Codependency, Codependency often means being sorry all alone.
Codependency is often said to be a disease of denial à but it is also a disease of regret. When the Codependent process has lasted long enough and penetrated deeply enough into the life and mind of the Codependent, the empty space left by the losses caused by progressive, destructive Codependency is filled up with regrets, if-onlys and could-have-beens. In early Codependency the Codependent tends to live in the future; in middle and late Codependency he begins to dwell more and more in the past. And it is usually an unhappy, bitterly regretted past.
The first casualty of Codependency, like that of war, is the truth. At first the Codependent merely denies the truth to himself. But as the Codependency, like a malignant tumor, slowly and progressively expands and invades more and more of the healthy tissue of his life and mind and world, the Codependent begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his Codependency, even though prior to the onset of his Codependent illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the Codependency, he may be scrupulously honest.
First the Codependent lies to himself about his Codependency, then he begins to lie to others. Lying, evasion, deception, manipulation, spinning and other techniques for avoiding or distorting the truth are necessary parts of the Codependent process. They precede the main body of the Codependency like military sappers and shock troops, mapping and clearing the way for its advance and protecting it from hostile counterattacks.
Because Codependency by definition is an irrational, unbalanced and unhealthy behavior pattern resulting from an abnormal obsession, it simply cannot continue to exist under normal circumstances without the progressive attack upon and distortion of reality resulting from the operation of its propaganda and psychological warfare brigades. The fundamentally insane and unsupportable thinking and behavior of the Codependent must be justified and rationalized so that the Codependency can continue and progress.
One of the chief ways the Codependency protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the Codependent to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of Codependent and non-Codependent realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that at least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.
The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:
o Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
o My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
o Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.
Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the Codependent is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his Codependency, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.
In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit
Codependency is often said to be a disease of denial à but it is also a disease of regret. When the Codependent process has lasted long enough and penetrated deeply enough into the life and mind of the Codependent, the empty space left by the losses caused by progressive, destructive Codependency is filled up with regrets, if-onlys and could-have-beens. In early Codependency the Codependent tends to live in the future; in middle and late Codependency he begins to dwell more and more in the past. And it is usually an unhappy, bitterly regretted past.
The first casualty of Codependency, like that of war, is the truth. At first the Codependent merely denies the truth to himself. But as the Codependency, like a malignant tumor, slowly and progressively expands and invades more and more of the healthy tissue of his life and mind and world, the Codependent begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his Codependency, even though prior to the onset of his Codependent illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the Codependency, he may be scrupulously honest.
First the Codependent lies to himself about his Codependency, then he begins to lie to others. Lying, evasion, deception, manipulation, spinning and other techniques for avoiding or distorting the truth are necessary parts of the Codependent process. They precede the main body of the Codependency like military sappers and shock troops, mapping and clearing the way for its advance and protecting it from hostile counterattacks.
Because Codependency by definition is an irrational, unbalanced and unhealthy behavior pattern resulting from an abnormal obsession, it simply cannot continue to exist under normal circumstances without the progressive attack upon and distortion of reality resulting from the operation of its propaganda and psychological warfare brigades. The fundamentally insane and unsupportable thinking and behavior of the Codependent must be justified and rationalized so that the Codependency can continue and progress.
One of the chief ways the Codependency protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the Codependent to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of Codependent and non-Codependent realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that at least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.
The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:
o Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
o My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
o Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.
Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the Codependent is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his Codependency, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.
In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit
/sigh
Codependency -is- addiction (to me)
it's being addicted to an addicted person...
oof
/Andrew looks for some chocolate and wanders away to watch Oprah
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
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Originally Posted by denny57 
Reminds me of when the alcoholic in my life tried to tell me I was "just as bad" as him. Works for some, I suppose.
-for me- it's my experience a healthy person doesn't pick a sick mate, stuff just doesn't happen -in a vacuum- and as long as I have -a designated patient- in my life it's a way to avoid looking at myself, it was similar to my xcoGF "answer shopping" for a therapist to tell her "I was the problem" although I had quit drinking and was working a program.
It's easy, it just happens not to be the truth
that -works for some- too I suppose, saying someone else -is- "their problem", doesn't work for me
It was more difficult for me to deal with my codependency then it was for me to "get sober" because to me codependency was more subtle, it was especially difficult when my xagf was so obviously "the designated patient" and I could point the finger at her and "label her as the problem".
For me that's when my recovery began -when I left her-, not when -the problem- ended, -she- wasn't "the problem" she was -a symptom- of my problem and that's when the real work -on me- could begin.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:
o Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
o My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
o Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.
o Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;
o My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;
o Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.
A lot of your post really rung true for me, Andrew. I resonated with this part of it the most. In the case of myself and of many of the people I've met on this board, the middle bullet is the most heartbreaking -- except it's often not *I* am different from most people, but HE/SHE is different, i.e. "but they're the most wonderful/kind/sweet/gentle/loving person in the world..."
Therefore it was not at all irrational to stay in an abusive situation. After all, where would I ever find someone this special again? Thanks for a different perspective.
Hugs,
GL
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 92
We avoid change,
We avoid facing our fears,
We avoid taking risks.
This was it for me. As long as I could focus on the AH, I didn't have to look at myself and I avoided change that way. His problems were so all-encompasing that there was no time for me. I remember how angry I used to get when a well-meaning friend would ask me what I was going to do about my situation, knowing how miserable I was. I would get so angry with the friend, though I wouldn't say it and I would get all defensive about why I couldn't leave. Then I would avoid that person for fear they were going to ask me what steps I'd taken about dealing with the problem or leaving. I hated my life with the AH but it seemed somehow better to deal with what I knew than take a chance to venture out and face the pain and looking at myself that leaving him would force me to do.
I have to get that book also. I think the work for us co-dependants is to figure out what it is about us that keeps us settling for so much less than we deserve.
We avoid facing our fears,
We avoid taking risks.
This was it for me. As long as I could focus on the AH, I didn't have to look at myself and I avoided change that way. His problems were so all-encompasing that there was no time for me. I remember how angry I used to get when a well-meaning friend would ask me what I was going to do about my situation, knowing how miserable I was. I would get so angry with the friend, though I wouldn't say it and I would get all defensive about why I couldn't leave. Then I would avoid that person for fear they were going to ask me what steps I'd taken about dealing with the problem or leaving. I hated my life with the AH but it seemed somehow better to deal with what I knew than take a chance to venture out and face the pain and looking at myself that leaving him would force me to do.
I have to get that book also. I think the work for us co-dependants is to figure out what it is about us that keeps us settling for so much less than we deserve.
AKA 'grewupinabarn'
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 471
Oooh! Oooh! I was "attention" big time.
If I could have just convinced the world that my suffering deserved attention, respect, and regard! Yes, that was my payoff. I wanted to feel important. Boy - did I ever expend hours and hours on thinking of ways that I should be getting more attention.
Weirdly enough, I didn't actually try to get attention - just constructed elaborate scripts in my head that proved I deserved attention. But it is sooooo hard to give up making those scripts.
Attention was a also means of occupying my brain so as to avoid dealing with real problems. And it still does.
Attention and avoidance - that is the beer and wine in my liquor cabinet.
And this results in the exact situation Ago has so well 'described' in his post (Thanks!!) where I become important and 'above the law'.
Ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs
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