How can I word this regarding visitation w/ kids? (dissolution of marriage papers)
Can't make sense out of crazy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the Bluegrass, Baby!
Posts: 211
How can I word this regarding visitation w/ kids? (dissolution of marriage papers)
I am working on our dissolution of marriage papers. I have a copy I am writing in my wishes on, as I am hopeful that we can agree and just be done with it. STBXAH may moan and groan over these things, but in the end I think he'll just sign it and be done with it, he avoids confrontation and unpleasantness at all costs, I highly doubt he'd have the nerve to go in front of a judge to get a ruling.
I have the "standard" language of: No drinking within 24 hours of, and/or during visit with children. Children are not to be passengers in a vehicle with a driver who is impaired in any way.
Here is what I am having trouble wording: He has his drinking buddies, the major one is his best friend (and the best friends wife) who he is very attached to. There is another woman who is STBAH's baby mama from 16 years ago who he recently started contact with again - she found him on the internet, this woman is also an alcoholic and played a part in the final crumbling of our marriage.
STBXAH major recreational activity is to hang out with these people down at the river, where his best friend lives. A bunch of very questionable characters, alcoholics and druggies gather there whenever the weather is well enough and basically all summer long. Really, all STBXAH does with the kids is take them there - to hang out as they can swim, have campfires and cook out and camp out.
I've gone a few times to check it out and in an effort to try and be agreeable, be a "good wife." And I've been very uncomfortable, especially with the children there. I ended up packing up the children and leaving each time as its just not an environment I want the kids exposed to.
So, how do I word in the visitation agreement that the kids are not to be around that area and those people, and around drinking? Or at the babymama's house or around her?
He will object to something saying the kids are not to be around people drinking because his family all drink - his sisters just socially but his dad is an alcoholic and when they are together, they drink until they puke and pass out. There is no way his dad won't drink and I dont see STBXAH not drinking when he's with his dad ever.....his dad lives in TX and they only see each other a couple of times a year, if that.
I just want to protect my kids.
I have the "standard" language of: No drinking within 24 hours of, and/or during visit with children. Children are not to be passengers in a vehicle with a driver who is impaired in any way.
Here is what I am having trouble wording: He has his drinking buddies, the major one is his best friend (and the best friends wife) who he is very attached to. There is another woman who is STBAH's baby mama from 16 years ago who he recently started contact with again - she found him on the internet, this woman is also an alcoholic and played a part in the final crumbling of our marriage.
STBXAH major recreational activity is to hang out with these people down at the river, where his best friend lives. A bunch of very questionable characters, alcoholics and druggies gather there whenever the weather is well enough and basically all summer long. Really, all STBXAH does with the kids is take them there - to hang out as they can swim, have campfires and cook out and camp out.
I've gone a few times to check it out and in an effort to try and be agreeable, be a "good wife." And I've been very uncomfortable, especially with the children there. I ended up packing up the children and leaving each time as its just not an environment I want the kids exposed to.
So, how do I word in the visitation agreement that the kids are not to be around that area and those people, and around drinking? Or at the babymama's house or around her?
He will object to something saying the kids are not to be around people drinking because his family all drink - his sisters just socially but his dad is an alcoholic and when they are together, they drink until they puke and pass out. There is no way his dad won't drink and I dont see STBXAH not drinking when he's with his dad ever.....his dad lives in TX and they only see each other a couple of times a year, if that.
I just want to protect my kids.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
One of the most difficult things for me when I divorced my first husband (no alcohol involved in that one) was that I had no say really in what and who my ex associated with when he had custody of the boys, that my opinion of whether the people who good/bad/indifferent had no weight, that unless my ex was putting my sons in dnager, he could do what he wanted, with whoever he wanted, when he wanted. When I divorced him, I lost whatever influence I may have had in the ex's decisions.
If your children are not in danger, if they are not being exposed to illegal activity, there may not be much you can do about it.
I know you want to proect your kids but there are limits as to how much you can do that. There are limits to your control when your kids are not actually with you, whether that be when they are at their father's, at school, at the mall, whatever.
If your children are not in danger, if they are not being exposed to illegal activity, there may not be much you can do about it.
I know you want to proect your kids but there are limits as to how much you can do that. There are limits to your control when your kids are not actually with you, whether that be when they are at their father's, at school, at the mall, whatever.
Can't make sense out of crazy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the Bluegrass, Baby!
Posts: 211
Originally Posted by Barbara52 
One of the most difficult things for me when I divorced my first husband (no alcohol involved in that one) was that I had no say really in what and who my ex associated with when he had custody of the boys, that my opinion of whether the people who good/bad/indifferent had no weight, that unless my ex was putting my sons in dnager, he could do what he wanted, with whoever he wanted, when he wanted. When I divorced him, I lost whatever influence I may have had in the ex's decisions.
If your children are not in danger, if they are not being exposed to illegal activity, there may not be much you can do about it.
I know you want to proect your kids but there are limits as to how much you can do that. There are limits to your control when your kids are not actually with you, whether that be when they are at their father's, at school, at the mall, whatever.
If your children are not in danger, if they are not being exposed to illegal activity, there may not be much you can do about it.
I know you want to proect your kids but there are limits as to how much you can do that. There are limits to your control when your kids are not actually with you, whether that be when they are at their father's, at school, at the mall, whatever.
I can think of several ways their hanging out at the river and at STBXAH's friends house can be dangerous to them, especially at the river.....drowning - kids swimming without proper supervision, boating with a drunk person manning the boat, there have been times there were guns with the drunk/drugged people there, driving the 2-3 miles on very hilly, narrow curvy roads back and forth from STBXAH's friends house and the river hangout place with an impaired person behind the wheel, impaired people giving improper/dangerous permission to kids for the kids to do something very dangerous (climbing the cliffs at the river alone, at night....) ect......
I know I can't control everything, and totally get what you're saying, but at the same time, I think the situation has enough potential for bad things to happen easily that I really dont feel comfortable not doing what I can about it. I wouldn't feel like I was doing a good job as their mother if I didn't.
Like I said I think, in the end, he'd sign an agreement, I just have to find a way to word it all.....
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,698
Hmmm....
Custody issues are tough, but they provide an excellent opportunity to practice keeping my controlling tendencies in check.
My papers read: "no consumption of alcohol for 24 hours prior to visitation, or during visitation".
That's it. The rest of the legal parenting requirements that apply to the general population (no abandoning the child alone in the house, no driving under the influence, no selling the child for drug money) still apply - I don't have to stipulate them in the custody papers.
If any of these requirements are broached I will press charges and AH's visitation rights will be altered/revoked.
It is my nature to be very specific.
In my custody papers I wanted to write "no consumption of alcohol for the rest of your life, ever. No harsh words to DS, must serve vegetables at dinner, DS must be in bed (bathed) by 8:30pm, no fart jokes, no play guns, no video games, no Sponge Bob Squarepants. You are not to date or kiss or "hang out" with another woman unless written approval is granted (by me) at least 6 months in advance."
Obviously, it is not my place to make these stipulations (as much as I would like to!).
Instead, I get to admit that I am powerless over my husband's parenting.
Of course, if he endangers my son or causes him emotional harm, I can intervene. But, legally, I have very little say over how AH conducts his business, who he hangs out with, and what he says.
Just my experience.
-TC
Custody issues are tough, but they provide an excellent opportunity to practice keeping my controlling tendencies in check.
My papers read: "no consumption of alcohol for 24 hours prior to visitation, or during visitation".
That's it. The rest of the legal parenting requirements that apply to the general population (no abandoning the child alone in the house, no driving under the influence, no selling the child for drug money) still apply - I don't have to stipulate them in the custody papers.
If any of these requirements are broached I will press charges and AH's visitation rights will be altered/revoked.
It is my nature to be very specific.
In my custody papers I wanted to write "no consumption of alcohol for the rest of your life, ever. No harsh words to DS, must serve vegetables at dinner, DS must be in bed (bathed) by 8:30pm, no fart jokes, no play guns, no video games, no Sponge Bob Squarepants. You are not to date or kiss or "hang out" with another woman unless written approval is granted (by me) at least 6 months in advance."
Obviously, it is not my place to make these stipulations (as much as I would like to!).
Instead, I get to admit that I am powerless over my husband's parenting.
Of course, if he endangers my son or causes him emotional harm, I can intervene. But, legally, I have very little say over how AH conducts his business, who he hangs out with, and what he says.
Just my experience.
-TC
Can't make sense out of crazy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the Bluegrass, Baby!
Posts: 211
REALLY?
So basically even though I KONW my kids will be put into this environment/
situation on a regular basis- in the nice weather (about 9 months of the year here)
they will be there basically every other weekend.
I should just sit back and tell myself I have no say and no control over his parenting??!!??
Knowing there is illegal drug use going on in front of them, knowing all of what I typed in my two posts above?
I just don't agree at all......
as parents we do whatever we can to protect the health and wellbeing of our kids. Why then make them wear seatbelts? We can't control everything!
Why supervise them at all?
I know my kids would regularly be around drunk people, people abusing drugs in their presence, and in potentially dangerous situations with almost no supervision....I should just sit back and allow it, hope for the best, pray they don't drown, pray there isnt a boating accident, pray there isn't a shooting, ect....
because I shouldn't have a say of what STBXAH does with his time with the kids?
So basically even though I KONW my kids will be put into this environment/
situation on a regular basis- in the nice weather (about 9 months of the year here)
they will be there basically every other weekend.
I should just sit back and tell myself I have no say and no control over his parenting??!!??
Knowing there is illegal drug use going on in front of them, knowing all of what I typed in my two posts above?
I just don't agree at all......
as parents we do whatever we can to protect the health and wellbeing of our kids. Why then make them wear seatbelts? We can't control everything!
Why supervise them at all?
I know my kids would regularly be around drunk people, people abusing drugs in their presence, and in potentially dangerous situations with almost no supervision....I should just sit back and allow it, hope for the best, pray they don't drown, pray there isnt a boating accident, pray there isn't a shooting, ect....
because I shouldn't have a say of what STBXAH does with his time with the kids?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Can you prove illegal activity is going on? If so call the police when it is happening.
Otherwise, yes, unfortunately, their father has the right to be their father in the manner he finds best (not yours) and the courts will uphold his rights. Courts are very reluctant to limit parental rights except in very limited circumstances.
Is this right or fair? Perhaps not. But legal doesn't always equal he best way.
Have you discussed how to do this with an attorney? They would be able to give you the best advice on what you can and cannot get a court to enforce.
Often the best thing you can do is to prepare your kids for possible problems, giving them the tools and coping skills they need to deal with whatever situation arises.
Otherwise, yes, unfortunately, their father has the right to be their father in the manner he finds best (not yours) and the courts will uphold his rights. Courts are very reluctant to limit parental rights except in very limited circumstances.
Is this right or fair? Perhaps not. But legal doesn't always equal he best way.
Have you discussed how to do this with an attorney? They would be able to give you the best advice on what you can and cannot get a court to enforce.
Often the best thing you can do is to prepare your kids for possible problems, giving them the tools and coping skills they need to deal with whatever situation arises.
Can't make sense out of crazy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the Bluegrass, Baby!
Posts: 211
Originally Posted by ToughChoices
Hmmm....
It is my nature to be very specific.
In my custody papers I wanted to write "no consumption of alcohol for the rest of your life, ever. No harsh words to DS, must serve vegetables at dinner, DS must be in bed (bathed) by 8:30pm, no fart jokes, no play guns, no video games, no Sponge Bob Squarepants. You are not to date or kiss or "hang out" with another woman unless written approval is granted (by me) at least 6 months in advance."
Obviously, it is not my place to make these stipulations (as much as I would like to!).
I think the concerns I have are a little more serious than no fart jokes or video games.....
Of course, if he endangers my son or causes him emotional harm, I can intervene. But, legally, I have very little say over how AH conducts his business, who he hangs out with, and what he says.
My whole point is that my children will be in a situation that endangers them on a regular basis!!!!
It is my nature to be very specific.
In my custody papers I wanted to write "no consumption of alcohol for the rest of your life, ever. No harsh words to DS, must serve vegetables at dinner, DS must be in bed (bathed) by 8:30pm, no fart jokes, no play guns, no video games, no Sponge Bob Squarepants. You are not to date or kiss or "hang out" with another woman unless written approval is granted (by me) at least 6 months in advance."
Obviously, it is not my place to make these stipulations (as much as I would like to!).
I think the concerns I have are a little more serious than no fart jokes or video games.....
Of course, if he endangers my son or causes him emotional harm, I can intervene. But, legally, I have very little say over how AH conducts his business, who he hangs out with, and what he says.
My whole point is that my children will be in a situation that endangers them on a regular basis!!!!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Reality can be rather shocking.
Look at the number of hard core addicts who never lose custody of their children. Look at the number of kids in truly awful home situations who never lose custody of their kids. The courts have their own standards for what constitutes grounds for limiting the custody of a parent. Those standards in many states makes little sense to me but are based on a parent's right to be with and raise their children as they see best as long as the children are kept safe in some court defined way. We don't have to like it (we often don't) and we can be ticked off by it.
One other thing, as for the babymama, you do not have the right to determine who you STBXAH associates with. You just don't. I remember way back when my ex wnated to control who was in my life, who lived with me, who I associated with. Ticked me off like you wouldn't beleive that he thought he could control me that way after we divorced.
Look at the number of hard core addicts who never lose custody of their children. Look at the number of kids in truly awful home situations who never lose custody of their kids. The courts have their own standards for what constitutes grounds for limiting the custody of a parent. Those standards in many states makes little sense to me but are based on a parent's right to be with and raise their children as they see best as long as the children are kept safe in some court defined way. We don't have to like it (we often don't) and we can be ticked off by it.
One other thing, as for the babymama, you do not have the right to determine who you STBXAH associates with. You just don't. I remember way back when my ex wnated to control who was in my life, who lived with me, who I associated with. Ticked me off like you wouldn't beleive that he thought he could control me that way after we divorced.
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
I was granted supervised visitation for dd with regard to her Amom, unfortunately mom's whole family is alcoholic but her Gmaw can and will keep it together when gkids are around. I know dd'll be around drinking whenever she's there but I believe danger to her is minimal.
Maybe you could shoot for supervised visitation, if not now then surely after the first drunken camp out.
As far as babymama and other turds that A's seem to attract, not much we can do about them. Our influence will be in the majority, time wise, so theoretically if we surround ourselves-expose them to quality people the exposure to turds should be offset. That's what I'm hoping for! :praying
Thanks and God bless us all, :ghug2
Coyote
Maybe you could shoot for supervised visitation, if not now then surely after the first drunken camp out.
As far as babymama and other turds that A's seem to attract, not much we can do about them. Our influence will be in the majority, time wise, so theoretically if we surround ourselves-expose them to quality people the exposure to turds should be offset. That's what I'm hoping for! :praying
Thanks and God bless us all, :ghug2
Coyote
Can't make sense out of crazy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the Bluegrass, Baby!
Posts: 211
Originally Posted by Barbara52
Can you prove illegal activity is going on? If so call the police when it is happening.
Otherwise, yes, unfortunately, their father has the right to be their father in the manner he finds best (not yours) and the courts will uphold his rights. Courts are very reluctant to limit parental rights except in very limited circumstances.
Is this right or fair? Perhaps not. But legal doesn't always equal he best way.
Have you discussed how to do this with an attorney? They would be able to give you the best advice on what you can and cannot get a court to enforce.
Often the best thing you can do is to prepare your kids for possible problems, giving them the tools and coping skills they need to deal with whatever situation arises.
Otherwise, yes, unfortunately, their father has the right to be their father in the manner he finds best (not yours) and the courts will uphold his rights. Courts are very reluctant to limit parental rights except in very limited circumstances.
Is this right or fair? Perhaps not. But legal doesn't always equal he best way.
Have you discussed how to do this with an attorney? They would be able to give you the best advice on what you can and cannot get a court to enforce.
Often the best thing you can do is to prepare your kids for possible problems, giving them the tools and coping skills they need to deal with whatever situation arises.
I guess I will consult an attorney because the situation is just not acceptable to me. I don't think I'm doing my job as their mother just sitting back and allowing them to step into that environment/situation every other weekend. Its like playing Russian Roulette with their wellbeing.
Calling the police would probably be helpful, but these are hard core, lifelong drunks and druggies, they will just be a little more careful each time. Plus, it is generally known to everyone around here what goes on down there, including law enforcement.......
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,698
If you know that they will be exposed to dangerous/illegal situations, you may need to rethink unsupervised visitation.
If you will not be able to sleep because you do not trust your STBXAH to care for them adequately, further legal intervention is needed.
Talk to your lawyer.
Explore your options.
If his past behavior indicates that he is unfit to parent alone you can provide evidence of this unfitness and push for supervised visitation only.
You can not make him behave responsibly by writing it into the papers.
I know it's tough, and I don't mean to make light of the situation.
Everyone's partner is different, and everyone faces different struggles.
-TC
If you will not be able to sleep because you do not trust your STBXAH to care for them adequately, further legal intervention is needed.
Talk to your lawyer.
Explore your options.
If his past behavior indicates that he is unfit to parent alone you can provide evidence of this unfitness and push for supervised visitation only.
You can not make him behave responsibly by writing it into the papers.
I know it's tough, and I don't mean to make light of the situation.
Everyone's partner is different, and everyone faces different struggles.
-TC
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Originally Posted by strongerwoman
So you don't think if it was written up and signed (agreed to) by STBXAH, that the court would uphold the agreement?
Can't make sense out of crazy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the Bluegrass, Baby!
Posts: 211
Originally Posted by Barbara52
Reality can be rather shocking.
Look at the number of hard core addicts who never lose custody of their children. Look at the number of kids in truly awful home situations who never lose custody of their kids. The courts have their own standards for what constitutes grounds for limiting the custody of a parent. Those standards in many states makes little sense to me but are based on a parent's right to be with and raise their children as they see best as long as the children are kept safe in some court defined way. We don't have to like it (we often don't) and we can be ticked off by it.
Look at the number of hard core addicts who never lose custody of their children. Look at the number of kids in truly awful home situations who never lose custody of their kids. The courts have their own standards for what constitutes grounds for limiting the custody of a parent. Those standards in many states makes little sense to me but are based on a parent's right to be with and raise their children as they see best as long as the children are kept safe in some court defined way. We don't have to like it (we often don't) and we can be ticked off by it.
I understand all of that, having been through a long drawn out custody battle with STBXAH's first wife who had documented abuse of their kids for years and years.....the whole "parents right to enjoy visitation with the child" often trumps what is really and truly best for the child. Been there done that.
But I just dont see how a court would agree that this would be a safe situation.
Sigh....time to start saving up for a lawyer....thank God its winter time now, that will buy me some time....
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 646
Oh Strongerwoman, I know this is hard. I know it was hard for me and I have been divorced now for 5 months. The whole process took about 2 years.
Your idea to check with a lawyer is spot on. When I first went to my lawyer it was hard because I got a HUGE does of reality. I wish I had been forewarned. A lawyer can tell you the ins and outs of what can be included in the separation agreement. Enforcing the agreement, is a whole other ball game I have discovered. Expensive and __can cause the kids even MORE emotional damage.
The hardest thing for me has been not having control over what happens between my former husband and my kids. I tell you it has been a huge growth process for me. I was like a caught fish at first. I was flopping about and fighting everything. I did not want to accept the reality of the situation. I was going to have little to no control over what my X-husband decided to do with the kids.
I then learned, like others have pointed out, that it has to be REALLY, REALLY
horrific before the courts will take away parenting rights. This is so all of us are protected from having our kids snatched away because of someone else's opinion of our parenting.
My lawyer was my rock and I trusted him to advise me. He was worth every penny.
Your idea to check with a lawyer is spot on. When I first went to my lawyer it was hard because I got a HUGE does of reality. I wish I had been forewarned. A lawyer can tell you the ins and outs of what can be included in the separation agreement. Enforcing the agreement, is a whole other ball game I have discovered. Expensive and __can cause the kids even MORE emotional damage.
The hardest thing for me has been not having control over what happens between my former husband and my kids. I tell you it has been a huge growth process for me. I was like a caught fish at first. I was flopping about and fighting everything. I did not want to accept the reality of the situation. I was going to have little to no control over what my X-husband decided to do with the kids.
I then learned, like others have pointed out, that it has to be REALLY, REALLY
horrific before the courts will take away parenting rights. This is so all of us are protected from having our kids snatched away because of someone else's opinion of our parenting.
My lawyer was my rock and I trusted him to advise me. He was worth every penny.
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
I learned that it can be very difficult to have a parent legally declared unfit and have that parents rights terminated by a court of law. I also learned that custody battles can be very costly and lengthly. And even if a parents rights were terminated, it's usually temporary and the courts always want to reinstate that parents rights if stipulations were set and adhered to.
You might not be able to dictate to the detail you wish when it comes to visitation if your H wants to fight it. I would talk to a lawyer about your concerns, you're getting some really good advice from folks here.
And I know, it just plain sucks, but it is what it is.
You might not be able to dictate to the detail you wish when it comes to visitation if your H wants to fight it. I would talk to a lawyer about your concerns, you're getting some really good advice from folks here.
And I know, it just plain sucks, but it is what it is.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Because of your concerns, if I were in your situation, and I was years and years ago............................................... .I would ask for SUPERVISED VISITATION based on his past record.
Start keeping a log of where he takes the children when he has them that can be presented to the court.
It's worth a shot and judges do listen when it comes the children, at least some of them do.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Start keeping a log of where he takes the children when he has them that can be presented to the court.
It's worth a shot and judges do listen when it comes the children, at least some of them do.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
I believe some of your worries will take care of themselves, especially as your husband's alcoholism progresses. I know Richard's first priority was finding his next drink. That came before visits with my daughter (whom he considered his daughter even though she wasn't). Over time, you may find that your husband is more interested in hanging out with his new girlfriend and his drinking buddies than actually hanging out with the kids.
Hopefully that will be the case for you, too. I'm happy to see you're taking steps to take care of yourself and your children and to protect them from harm SW, and actively seeking a better live for yourself.
Since I've never been married I don't have any advice or experience to share when it comes to divorce. But I just wanted to chime in and offer you my support as you move forward and seek a better life for yourself.
Hopefully that will be the case for you, too. I'm happy to see you're taking steps to take care of yourself and your children and to protect them from harm SW, and actively seeking a better live for yourself.
Since I've never been married I don't have any advice or experience to share when it comes to divorce. But I just wanted to chime in and offer you my support as you move forward and seek a better life for yourself.
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
I believe some of your worries will take care of themselves, especially as your husband's alcoholism progresses. I know Richard's first priority was finding his next drink. That came before visits with my daughter (whom he considered his daughter even though she wasn't). Over time, you may find that your husband is more interested in hanging out with his new girlfriend and his drinking buddies than actually hanging out with the kids.
Thanks and God bless us all, :ghug3
Coyote
P.S. Embrace this blessing which will surely come.
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