Opinions on a couple things please
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 174
Opinions on a couple things please
I currently have a civil protection order against my ah. I went and got it because he was harassing me over the phone saying that I should expect a surprise visit in 30 minutes. He was also threatening to move back into the house. I know some of it doesnt sound serious. But he has an anger problem and is angry at me because we have a child support hearing comming up. He also has a history of using intimidation and is verbally abusive in front of other people and the kids. I'd like to think that he would never go any farther than what he has but I dont know.
Having said all that Im considering droping it because of the kids. I have made it clear that I will not tolerate him contacting us when he is drinking and he is not to be drinking when he has custody of the kids. But if I have the CPO then that means his mom and dad will be the ones to pick the kids up or drop them off. I wouldnt see him and his parents would never say anything about his drinking. I can always tell if he is drinking though and dont put it past him to take them to another beer party. So while I know that I would be putting myself back in an unpredictable situation, I would rather that than unknowingly send them to stay with a drunk dad.
The other thing is how do you help a child set up boundaries with an alcoholic parent. I want my son to know that his dad drinking while he is with him is not ok. He is 6 and he understands that his dad drinking is not a good thing. I dont want to alienate my son from his dad, but safety is a huge concern. My 2 year old will also be there as well. I am working to teach him my cell number so he can call if he needs anything too. I'm just not sure how to talk to him about the other stuff. I would appreciate any opinions. Thanks!
Having said all that Im considering droping it because of the kids. I have made it clear that I will not tolerate him contacting us when he is drinking and he is not to be drinking when he has custody of the kids. But if I have the CPO then that means his mom and dad will be the ones to pick the kids up or drop them off. I wouldnt see him and his parents would never say anything about his drinking. I can always tell if he is drinking though and dont put it past him to take them to another beer party. So while I know that I would be putting myself back in an unpredictable situation, I would rather that than unknowingly send them to stay with a drunk dad.
The other thing is how do you help a child set up boundaries with an alcoholic parent. I want my son to know that his dad drinking while he is with him is not ok. He is 6 and he understands that his dad drinking is not a good thing. I dont want to alienate my son from his dad, but safety is a huge concern. My 2 year old will also be there as well. I am working to teach him my cell number so he can call if he needs anything too. I'm just not sure how to talk to him about the other stuff. I would appreciate any opinions. Thanks!
Women Do Recover!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: So Cal/SE TX
Posts: 210
Man that is tough, I think I would get professional help to resolve these questions whether it be a psychologist or a lawyer I am not sure but it sounds like you need someone who deals with these types of situations on a daily basis. Sorry I wasn't more helpful.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
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I can understand your concerns about your kids ending up being exposed to their father drunk, or even worse, ending up at some keg party. HOWEVER, whether his parents pick up the children or not does not mean he won't get drunk while he has the kids.
Your seeing him come in the door sober to pick up his children is no guarantee he won't get trashed while he has them with him. I realize you want to protect your children at all costs, but it sounds as if you also think you can somehow control the situation.
Does he have the children for the day or for overnights? If he gets them the entire weekend, he has the opportunity to clean up his act before he brings them home.
Before my AH's disease progressed, there were times when he was drunk and I just thought he was having an attitude or ticked off about something. When I'd bring up some nasty comment he made a few days later, he'd look at me like I was nuts and deny ever saying anything of the kind. Then I finally realized he wasn't just ticked off - he was drunk and in a black-out.
The protective order serves the purpose of keeping your AH from making harrassing phone calls. He has a history of problems with anger and intimidating behavior. Take if from a woman who was married to an A who had MAJOR anger problems and could rip me to shreads with his verbal tirades; one night he shoved me a little. A year later, he was dragging me by my hair across our entryway floor and throwing me down our front steps.
I'm not saying that will happen to you, but that protective order will keep a loose canon on your deck from going off. Also, you have set a strong boundary. Letting that boundary down might just give your AH a shot of machismo. I've dealt with an abuser who I thought would remain a verbal abuser. I found out the hard way that it could - and did - escalate.
It sounds as if your six-year-old knows that he should call home if his dad starts drinking. Perhaps reinforcing to him how important it is he call home if dad starts drinking would be a good idea.
Maybe a call to your attorney on Monday regarding the protective order would be a good idea too.
Your seeing him come in the door sober to pick up his children is no guarantee he won't get trashed while he has them with him. I realize you want to protect your children at all costs, but it sounds as if you also think you can somehow control the situation.
Does he have the children for the day or for overnights? If he gets them the entire weekend, he has the opportunity to clean up his act before he brings them home.
Before my AH's disease progressed, there were times when he was drunk and I just thought he was having an attitude or ticked off about something. When I'd bring up some nasty comment he made a few days later, he'd look at me like I was nuts and deny ever saying anything of the kind. Then I finally realized he wasn't just ticked off - he was drunk and in a black-out.
The protective order serves the purpose of keeping your AH from making harrassing phone calls. He has a history of problems with anger and intimidating behavior. Take if from a woman who was married to an A who had MAJOR anger problems and could rip me to shreads with his verbal tirades; one night he shoved me a little. A year later, he was dragging me by my hair across our entryway floor and throwing me down our front steps.
I'm not saying that will happen to you, but that protective order will keep a loose canon on your deck from going off. Also, you have set a strong boundary. Letting that boundary down might just give your AH a shot of machismo. I've dealt with an abuser who I thought would remain a verbal abuser. I found out the hard way that it could - and did - escalate.
It sounds as if your six-year-old knows that he should call home if his dad starts drinking. Perhaps reinforcing to him how important it is he call home if dad starts drinking would be a good idea.
Maybe a call to your attorney on Monday regarding the protective order would be a good idea too.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 174
Well the reason that I am conflicted is because my attorney said that I should keep it on to keep him from moving back in. My counselor is the one who made the point of being able to judge his behavior since I know him best. I have been talking to the local legal advocate about my options too. I have also considered asking for an order that allows for contact about the kids but no physical contact. I understand that I can't control his drinking but I feel strongly about us not being around it.
mle-sober
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
If it were possible I wouldn't let him have any contact with me or my kids until and unless he were in serious recovery. Period.
I think you should assume he is drinking all the time until you are proven otherwise. I wouldn't trust him to take care of the kids for even an hour. Unless he is supervised. And I would never put my 2 year old or my 6 year old in a situation where they have to tell on their dad or protect themselves from him. When he's drunk, he can be angry and aggressive with them as easily as he can with anyone else. Or he can put them in the car and drive drunk with them. He is not safe to be a parent if he is a an active alcoholic.
I don't know if it's legally possible to draw those lines but if it is, I would do so.
I think you should assume he is drinking all the time until you are proven otherwise. I wouldn't trust him to take care of the kids for even an hour. Unless he is supervised. And I would never put my 2 year old or my 6 year old in a situation where they have to tell on their dad or protect themselves from him. When he's drunk, he can be angry and aggressive with them as easily as he can with anyone else. Or he can put them in the car and drive drunk with them. He is not safe to be a parent if he is a an active alcoholic.
I don't know if it's legally possible to draw those lines but if it is, I would do so.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
I dont want to alienate my son from his dad
Hiys wish-- YOU are not alienating him from his dad!! His dad is doing that all on his own with his continuing active alcoholism! It actually is not your job nor in your son's bests interests to feel like you have any power to facilitate this relationship between father and son.
I think 6 yrs old is too young to have the burden of responsibility for knowing when to call for help because Dad is drinking or not. That is way to scary and way too concrete an understanding to ask of a 6 yr old. And what if Dad is hiding the booze in soda containers or any of the zillion other ways they get around "drinking" in front of people? It is our job as parents to make sure our children are safe. You are the sober parent. Trust yourself.
The very definition of an addict is someone who cannot control their drinking. Therefore they will drink when they say they won't, they will drink at the absolute worst possible times, they will drink in front of people they never wanted to drink in front of etc. It is a fantasy to believe an alcoholic who says "I will not drink around my kids."
Protect yourself and your son 100%.
Time will tell Wish. Easy does it.
More will be revealed.
Peace-
B.
Hiys wish-- YOU are not alienating him from his dad!! His dad is doing that all on his own with his continuing active alcoholism! It actually is not your job nor in your son's bests interests to feel like you have any power to facilitate this relationship between father and son.
I think 6 yrs old is too young to have the burden of responsibility for knowing when to call for help because Dad is drinking or not. That is way to scary and way too concrete an understanding to ask of a 6 yr old. And what if Dad is hiding the booze in soda containers or any of the zillion other ways they get around "drinking" in front of people? It is our job as parents to make sure our children are safe. You are the sober parent. Trust yourself.
The very definition of an addict is someone who cannot control their drinking. Therefore they will drink when they say they won't, they will drink at the absolute worst possible times, they will drink in front of people they never wanted to drink in front of etc. It is a fantasy to believe an alcoholic who says "I will not drink around my kids."
Protect yourself and your son 100%.
Time will tell Wish. Easy does it.
More will be revealed.
Peace-
B.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Please check with your attorney and counselor about getting SUPERVISED VISITATION.
That would give him certain times, with the child supervised by someone appointed by the court, usually an uninvolved third party.
Just a thought.
Love and hugs,
That would give him certain times, with the child supervised by someone appointed by the court, usually an uninvolved third party.
Just a thought.
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tar Heel Country
Posts: 86
Wish,
Is there a way to address custody/visitation as an emergency? If there is any chance that the children would be in a car or bar/party/other "adult" environment with a drunk dad, seems that deserves immediate attn.
My dad made the same choices when I was little. It was dangerous for me then and left lots of stuff for me to work through. My mom was in your situation and she sacrificed my safety and well-being for her own fears of him. She also says now that she didn't want to stand in the way of his relationship with me. But his relationship with me was up to him, not her. For me, her decisions made a bad situation worse. Neither parent took good care of me.
You are in a really hard spot. I see the terrible struggle from your side. I also have a childhood of experience from the other side.
I wish my mom had asked the same questions you are asking!!
TH
Is there a way to address custody/visitation as an emergency? If there is any chance that the children would be in a car or bar/party/other "adult" environment with a drunk dad, seems that deserves immediate attn.
My dad made the same choices when I was little. It was dangerous for me then and left lots of stuff for me to work through. My mom was in your situation and she sacrificed my safety and well-being for her own fears of him. She also says now that she didn't want to stand in the way of his relationship with me. But his relationship with me was up to him, not her. For me, her decisions made a bad situation worse. Neither parent took good care of me.
You are in a really hard spot. I see the terrible struggle from your side. I also have a childhood of experience from the other side.
I wish my mom had asked the same questions you are asking!!
TH
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Reading this thread makes me so grateful that I never had children with my alcoholic partner and therefore never had to place my precious daughter in his hands.
I, too, think it's important for your safety to keep the protective order in place. I don't have any ESH to share since I've never been in your situation. But hopefully, other women who read or participate on this forum who are of child bearing age will read your thread and head for the hills BEFORE they purposely or accidentally have a child with an addict.
It simply isn't worth the risk. Children are way too precious to place them in the care of an active addict.
I, too, think it's important for your safety to keep the protective order in place. I don't have any ESH to share since I've never been in your situation. But hopefully, other women who read or participate on this forum who are of child bearing age will read your thread and head for the hills BEFORE they purposely or accidentally have a child with an addict.
It simply isn't worth the risk. Children are way too precious to place them in the care of an active addict.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8
Wish,
First of all, the concerns you are reporting are valid and significant. The restraining order provides you with an extra layer of protection and also a means by which to document what this dude is doing - which is attempting to intimidate and manipulate you into doing just what you are considering doing.
While, unfortunately, there is no foolproof way to protect yourself and your kids, the key is documentation - try to record the phone calls in which he threatens you, and don't hesitate to call the police as needed. When you can't record, take copious notes! All this will add up when the time comes to make formal custody arrangements, assuming that you follow through and divorce this guy.
I hesitate ever to recommend the dissolution of a marriage - except in cases like this. Your guy is a control freak and a verbal (at least) abuser.
Let me guess - when he screws up, is it ever his fault? Nope, didn't think so. Second guess - if he ever agreed to attend relationship counseling (and he probably never did, unless court mandated), he quit as soon as the counselor suggested that he was to blame in any way.
ITA with the suggestion of supervised visitation.
Finally, you said that you are considering letting him return to the home. Keep in mind, when you do this, the example you are providing your kids is that the daddy is supposed to be a bully, and the mommy a doormat. No matter what you tell them, this is the behavior that they will grow up seeing.
Good luck!
First of all, the concerns you are reporting are valid and significant. The restraining order provides you with an extra layer of protection and also a means by which to document what this dude is doing - which is attempting to intimidate and manipulate you into doing just what you are considering doing.
While, unfortunately, there is no foolproof way to protect yourself and your kids, the key is documentation - try to record the phone calls in which he threatens you, and don't hesitate to call the police as needed. When you can't record, take copious notes! All this will add up when the time comes to make formal custody arrangements, assuming that you follow through and divorce this guy.
I hesitate ever to recommend the dissolution of a marriage - except in cases like this. Your guy is a control freak and a verbal (at least) abuser.
Let me guess - when he screws up, is it ever his fault? Nope, didn't think so. Second guess - if he ever agreed to attend relationship counseling (and he probably never did, unless court mandated), he quit as soon as the counselor suggested that he was to blame in any way.
ITA with the suggestion of supervised visitation.
Finally, you said that you are considering letting him return to the home. Keep in mind, when you do this, the example you are providing your kids is that the daddy is supposed to be a bully, and the mommy a doormat. No matter what you tell them, this is the behavior that they will grow up seeing.
Good luck!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 174
Originally Posted by PeggyT 
Wish,
First of all, the concerns you are reporting are valid and significant. The restraining order provides you with an extra layer of protection and also a means by which to document what this dude is doing - which is attempting to intimidate and manipulate you into doing just what you are considering doing.
While, unfortunately, there is no foolproof way to protect yourself and your kids, the key is documentation - try to record the phone calls in which he threatens you, and don't hesitate to call the police as needed. When you can't record, take copious notes! All this will add up when the time comes to make formal custody arrangements, assuming that you follow through and divorce this guy.
I hesitate ever to recommend the dissolution of a marriage - except in cases like this. Your guy is a control freak and a verbal (at least) abuser.
Let me guess - when he screws up, is it ever his fault? Nope, didn't think so. Second guess - if he ever agreed to attend relationship counseling (and he probably never did, unless court mandated), he quit as soon as the counselor suggested that he was to blame in any way.
ITA with the suggestion of supervised visitation.
Finally, you said that you are considering letting him return to the home. Keep in mind, when you do this, the example you are providing your kids is that the daddy is supposed to be a bully, and the mommy a doormat. No matter what you tell them, this is the behavior that they will grow up seeing.
Good luck!
First of all, the concerns you are reporting are valid and significant. The restraining order provides you with an extra layer of protection and also a means by which to document what this dude is doing - which is attempting to intimidate and manipulate you into doing just what you are considering doing.
While, unfortunately, there is no foolproof way to protect yourself and your kids, the key is documentation - try to record the phone calls in which he threatens you, and don't hesitate to call the police as needed. When you can't record, take copious notes! All this will add up when the time comes to make formal custody arrangements, assuming that you follow through and divorce this guy.
I hesitate ever to recommend the dissolution of a marriage - except in cases like this. Your guy is a control freak and a verbal (at least) abuser.
Let me guess - when he screws up, is it ever his fault? Nope, didn't think so. Second guess - if he ever agreed to attend relationship counseling (and he probably never did, unless court mandated), he quit as soon as the counselor suggested that he was to blame in any way.
ITA with the suggestion of supervised visitation.
Finally, you said that you are considering letting him return to the home. Keep in mind, when you do this, the example you are providing your kids is that the daddy is supposed to be a bully, and the mommy a doormat. No matter what you tell them, this is the behavior that they will grow up seeing.
Good luck!
Yep you are pretty right on. He is a verbal abuser and intimidation is his main control tactic. I go back and forth about whether I over reacted getting the order. I feel crazy sometimes too. But I know that is a product of the verbal abuse.
When I spoke to my attorney, he said that I am going to have a very thin case trying to prove that he is a threat. The magistrate kept saying that she cant give an order based on someone being rude. What made him mad though is the fact that we have a child support hearing coming up. When he is mad he is a lose cannon. He has gone as far as punching holes in walls though he has never actually hit me. Now Im basing this on my own experiences, but that almost seems just as bad because it is still so intimidating.
You were dead on about the counseling. Of course nothing is ever his fault. Im the one that is ruining his life by leaving him. Im the one that makes him look bad. Im the one that plain out ruined everything. We had decided to go to counseling to resolve issues regarding parenting and "to stop hurting one another anymore." The second part is his words. But yea he made it through half of a counseling session before he walked out. He claimed that it was beat up on the alcoholic day. I continued and the counselor tells me every time that he admires the boundaries that I have set and the stand that I have taken with him. Its hard but Im just now to the point that I am able to do it.
There is no way that I will ever let him move back in with us. It has taken a long time to get a peaceful feeling back into our lives. I'm just not willing to put the kids and I back into the unknown and the chaos. The only way he will be coming back here is if I lift the order or when the kids and I move. I may not be able to control his drinking but I can control whether we live with it.
I have asked about getting supervised visitations for the kids. My attorney advised that I should hold off on it because he will eventually mess up and then I can. If I do it now he will more than likely try to retaliate somehow. I think Im going to see if I can make an appointment with a child counselor who specializes in dealing with kids who have alcoholic parents. I have so many questions that I just cant afford to make the wrong decisions.
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