So what ARE Boundaries?
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
So what exactly was your boundary Ago? Just for me to understand.
A boundary needs to have an action on your part that you will follow through with.
i.e. if you do this -- I will enforce my boundary by --
From your post, I can only see that your way of holding this boundary was to get annoyed with this guy and give him grief?! If he is always experiencing this grief/nagging whatever from his addicted wife at home, you giving it some at work is not likely to be a motivator to stop taking advantgae of you.
For me, if I feel I am being manipulated in some way at work, I will call a meeting with the person involved and invite the senior manager along, where I will state what is happening, why I feel it is unjust or whatever and then work with them both to come to a resolution that does not comprimise my sense of worth/value/esteem.
If at the end of the meeting or during the meeting, I feel that I am not being takemn seriously and I am still feeling there is an injustice, then I must have some where to go from there. i.e. I could raise a formal complaint, I could find other work, I can suck it up and put it down to experience.
It depends on you and how you feel. Personally, if it is a serious matter, like money with your case, I would not suck it up. Also raising a complaint maybe difficult unless you work in a very structured environment like a big company.
So I can see why your friends are saying get another job. It seems to be the last action for you.
A boundary is nothing, if you let people constantly walk all over it, you gotta be prepared to go that one step further to maintain it if they cannot respect it.
Some people will never respect a boundary, nowadays, I tend to get folks like that out of my life.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
A boundary needs to have an action on your part that you will follow through with.
i.e. if you do this -- I will enforce my boundary by --
From your post, I can only see that your way of holding this boundary was to get annoyed with this guy and give him grief?! If he is always experiencing this grief/nagging whatever from his addicted wife at home, you giving it some at work is not likely to be a motivator to stop taking advantgae of you.
For me, if I feel I am being manipulated in some way at work, I will call a meeting with the person involved and invite the senior manager along, where I will state what is happening, why I feel it is unjust or whatever and then work with them both to come to a resolution that does not comprimise my sense of worth/value/esteem.
If at the end of the meeting or during the meeting, I feel that I am not being takemn seriously and I am still feeling there is an injustice, then I must have some where to go from there. i.e. I could raise a formal complaint, I could find other work, I can suck it up and put it down to experience.
It depends on you and how you feel. Personally, if it is a serious matter, like money with your case, I would not suck it up. Also raising a complaint maybe difficult unless you work in a very structured environment like a big company.
So I can see why your friends are saying get another job. It seems to be the last action for you.
A boundary is nothing, if you let people constantly walk all over it, you gotta be prepared to go that one step further to maintain it if they cannot respect it.
Some people will never respect a boundary, nowadays, I tend to get folks like that out of my life.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
If he tries to get me to "wait around" I generally just get in my car and leave
I go over my "price list" with him preemptively when possible, but i have gone over my price list with him repeatedly, when cornered now, afterwards, he'll say "sorry, I just can't afford it" and take 50 dollars a day off.
I am very clear with him about what my prices are, and the fact I don't want to wait around for him at the end of the day for 1-2 hours while he goes to the bank.
I make it clear to him, What my my job description is, and How much I charge for that, I am expected to be prompt, show up, do my job, then leave, I ask in return that he pay me promptly and correctly.
That's it, that's his job.
In this line of work, I am a specialist, generally speaking I have maybe 10 companies I work for, if one isn't prompt in payment, I generally don't work for them any more, since I have just returned to this line of work at this time I don't have any other clients, so that reduces my leverage considerably.
What happens is he agrees to my terms, he agreed before I started working for him, and when I sit down with him, he agrees again, after a few weeks he starts arbitrarily changing the "rules" again ie; "defaulting" to the lowest daily rate when it's clearly not appropriate, and underpaying "Big Wood" days.
Since I have had to repeat myself on this matter over and over, the truth of the matter is after I finish moving (relocating to a new area) I am going to actively pursue new clients, and no I am not informing him of this decision, the boundary I am going to enforce is an "internal" one, since I have had to "enforce" this boundary upwards of half a dozen times, I need to accept that this is just how this man is when he is under financial duress.
In the beginning, if anything he overpayed me, and would offer "incentive" bonuses, now he consistently underpays me, and tries to get "just a little more" while paying less every day.
My boundary at this point is look for other clients, meanwhile it's just frustrating to have to "go toe to toe" every week to get what's fair.
If he approaches me before a job, and we negotiate a price before hand, I'm OK with that, it's when he retroactively changes my pay is when I get frustrated.
I just found out last week he has had a "string" of climbers walk away from him swearing to never work for him again because of his "just a little more" approach with them at the end of the day as well.
To be clear, with what I do (Big Wood Specialist) I increase production by at least 300% on large removals, usually quite a bit more, and frequently will do what most climbers will take anywhere form 1-3 days, I can have on the ground in 1-3 hours, the physical toll on me is considerable, for that I expect to be paid promptly and properly.
Anyhow, in the past I have just walked away from people like this, at this moment I don't have this luxury, but I will take steps to walk away ASAP.
I go over my "price list" with him preemptively when possible, but i have gone over my price list with him repeatedly, when cornered now, afterwards, he'll say "sorry, I just can't afford it" and take 50 dollars a day off.
I am very clear with him about what my prices are, and the fact I don't want to wait around for him at the end of the day for 1-2 hours while he goes to the bank.
I make it clear to him, What my my job description is, and How much I charge for that, I am expected to be prompt, show up, do my job, then leave, I ask in return that he pay me promptly and correctly.
That's it, that's his job.
In this line of work, I am a specialist, generally speaking I have maybe 10 companies I work for, if one isn't prompt in payment, I generally don't work for them any more, since I have just returned to this line of work at this time I don't have any other clients, so that reduces my leverage considerably.
What happens is he agrees to my terms, he agreed before I started working for him, and when I sit down with him, he agrees again, after a few weeks he starts arbitrarily changing the "rules" again ie; "defaulting" to the lowest daily rate when it's clearly not appropriate, and underpaying "Big Wood" days.
Since I have had to repeat myself on this matter over and over, the truth of the matter is after I finish moving (relocating to a new area) I am going to actively pursue new clients, and no I am not informing him of this decision, the boundary I am going to enforce is an "internal" one, since I have had to "enforce" this boundary upwards of half a dozen times, I need to accept that this is just how this man is when he is under financial duress.
In the beginning, if anything he overpayed me, and would offer "incentive" bonuses, now he consistently underpays me, and tries to get "just a little more" while paying less every day.
My boundary at this point is look for other clients, meanwhile it's just frustrating to have to "go toe to toe" every week to get what's fair.
If he approaches me before a job, and we negotiate a price before hand, I'm OK with that, it's when he retroactively changes my pay is when I get frustrated.
I just found out last week he has had a "string" of climbers walk away from him swearing to never work for him again because of his "just a little more" approach with them at the end of the day as well.
To be clear, with what I do (Big Wood Specialist) I increase production by at least 300% on large removals, usually quite a bit more, and frequently will do what most climbers will take anywhere form 1-3 days, I can have on the ground in 1-3 hours, the physical toll on me is considerable, for that I expect to be paid promptly and properly.
Anyhow, in the past I have just walked away from people like this, at this moment I don't have this luxury, but I will take steps to walk away ASAP.
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
Ago,
have you considered asking for payment up front? obviously you need a consequence that you are happy with if he doesn't or an enforcable contract, with some sort of penalty clause if he doesn't pay on time. (that won't cost you the earth to have enforced).
It just seems backwards here. You are powerful in this situation (and I know you want to be fair....) but if no-one gets paid if YOU don't finish the job, what would happen if you just downed tools at this point and said you wouldn't finish the job unless you had the proper rate for the day in your hand.
Say you want to go to daily wages (in advance)? that way you would only lose 1 day's wages if he pushed the boundary (or the company collapses)
Honestly, this whole set-up could collapse at a moments notice. It doesn't matter what financial problems he has, they are not of your making.
A different client would be a jolly good idea.
have you considered asking for payment up front? obviously you need a consequence that you are happy with if he doesn't or an enforcable contract, with some sort of penalty clause if he doesn't pay on time. (that won't cost you the earth to have enforced).
It just seems backwards here. You are powerful in this situation (and I know you want to be fair....) but if no-one gets paid if YOU don't finish the job, what would happen if you just downed tools at this point and said you wouldn't finish the job unless you had the proper rate for the day in your hand.
Say you want to go to daily wages (in advance)? that way you would only lose 1 day's wages if he pushed the boundary (or the company collapses)
Honestly, this whole set-up could collapse at a moments notice. It doesn't matter what financial problems he has, they are not of your making.
A different client would be a jolly good idea.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
Could you draft an agreement and both parties sign it prior to working for him? Detail what you will and will not do. It doens't need to be complicated, but having it written down and signed greatly reduces his "negoitating" after the project.
I took a project management class about this last semester. I wrote mock proposals, bids and contracts for construction and demolition projects.
You could tell him that as you are growing your business, you find it necessary to keep things simple for both parties, so you will now be signing basic contracts prior to accepting projects.
I know that in freelance work, there are no spelled out rules, but this covers you and your crew as it is not fair to them either. The economy is tight right now which is probably why he doing this, but you have to look out for yourself and a contract is one way to do that while retaining his business for the time being.
I took a project management class about this last semester. I wrote mock proposals, bids and contracts for construction and demolition projects.
You could tell him that as you are growing your business, you find it necessary to keep things simple for both parties, so you will now be signing basic contracts prior to accepting projects.
I know that in freelance work, there are no spelled out rules, but this covers you and your crew as it is not fair to them either. The economy is tight right now which is probably why he doing this, but you have to look out for yourself and a contract is one way to do that while retaining his business for the time being.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Truthfully, I have found, in my experience, the best way for me to deal with clients such as this is to not have them.
I have had this difficulty with about 20% of the companies (and clients) in the past and the best thing I can do is increase my client base as to make them unnecessary.
The thing they all have in common is they always push at the end of the job to renegotiate the terms of the agreement because I work so fast I "make it look easy" and get the job done so much faster then they ever could have imagined.
I make it look easy because of a few factors, one is the physical toll it takes on me, it's very physically demanding, and one is the actual physical danger I place myself in. At the end of each job, my face hurts from gritting my teeth and I have adrenaline pumping through my system at an alarming rate, and I'm usually covered with contusions and abrasions. Another reason I get it done so fast is because I am a specialist, there are very few climbers that can or will even do large wood, but after a few hours I am "done in" and as I mentioned earlier, one or two hard days will require me to take to my bed for a few days to recover, this is by no means something I can do 40 hours a week, unless I slow WAY down.
There are only a few of us that do this any more, it's a highly specialized, incredibly dangerous field, there were 12 of us when I started 15 years ago, four of those men are now dead, and four injured so badly they couldn't continue, either from just choosing not to, or literally physically unable to continue (one got paralyzed), the other four of us started our own companies, I sold mine when I took over my families restaurant a few years ago.
I didn't plan on returning to this line of work, but it became available, and it's highly lucrative, although "spotty" (sporadic)
Anyway, generally speaking, the few folks that want "just a little more" at the end of the job, and try to renegotiate the contract at the end of the job display "red flags" early on, with a broad enough client base I just choose not to work for them.
This started off being one thing, and evolved to what it is as he went into financial difficulty, for now, it's a means to an end until I finalize my relocation process, which should be in another week or two, then I can start advertising for new clients and see about decreasing my dependence on just one client.
Having the ability to "down tools" and walk away at any time greatly increases my negotiating leverage in these situations, right now, I am unable to "enforce my boundaries" from a position of independence which is "If you -don't pay me properly and promptly- I will -walk away-
As it is, right now I have to just "negotiate" and do the best I can to "fight for my rights" but not from a position of autonomy and independence, I can't afford to lose him as a client at this time, so the weekly "discussion" is part of the job description, what I can do right now is have gratitude I am working, try to be as clear as I can what I expect, and try not to "attach" and get frustrated by these ongoing "renegotiations" and just realize they are part of working for this man, and work going forward to increase my client base once I relocate.
After I get a little more financial autonomy I will look at other career opportunities, this is by no means a long term endeavor for me, the danger and physical toll it takes is just too much. At 35 I was already way too old to be doing this, at 43 it's just ridiculous.
I have had this difficulty with about 20% of the companies (and clients) in the past and the best thing I can do is increase my client base as to make them unnecessary.
The thing they all have in common is they always push at the end of the job to renegotiate the terms of the agreement because I work so fast I "make it look easy" and get the job done so much faster then they ever could have imagined.
I make it look easy because of a few factors, one is the physical toll it takes on me, it's very physically demanding, and one is the actual physical danger I place myself in. At the end of each job, my face hurts from gritting my teeth and I have adrenaline pumping through my system at an alarming rate, and I'm usually covered with contusions and abrasions. Another reason I get it done so fast is because I am a specialist, there are very few climbers that can or will even do large wood, but after a few hours I am "done in" and as I mentioned earlier, one or two hard days will require me to take to my bed for a few days to recover, this is by no means something I can do 40 hours a week, unless I slow WAY down.
There are only a few of us that do this any more, it's a highly specialized, incredibly dangerous field, there were 12 of us when I started 15 years ago, four of those men are now dead, and four injured so badly they couldn't continue, either from just choosing not to, or literally physically unable to continue (one got paralyzed), the other four of us started our own companies, I sold mine when I took over my families restaurant a few years ago.
I didn't plan on returning to this line of work, but it became available, and it's highly lucrative, although "spotty" (sporadic)
Anyway, generally speaking, the few folks that want "just a little more" at the end of the job, and try to renegotiate the contract at the end of the job display "red flags" early on, with a broad enough client base I just choose not to work for them.
This started off being one thing, and evolved to what it is as he went into financial difficulty, for now, it's a means to an end until I finalize my relocation process, which should be in another week or two, then I can start advertising for new clients and see about decreasing my dependence on just one client.
Having the ability to "down tools" and walk away at any time greatly increases my negotiating leverage in these situations, right now, I am unable to "enforce my boundaries" from a position of independence which is "If you -don't pay me properly and promptly- I will -walk away-
As it is, right now I have to just "negotiate" and do the best I can to "fight for my rights" but not from a position of autonomy and independence, I can't afford to lose him as a client at this time, so the weekly "discussion" is part of the job description, what I can do right now is have gratitude I am working, try to be as clear as I can what I expect, and try not to "attach" and get frustrated by these ongoing "renegotiations" and just realize they are part of working for this man, and work going forward to increase my client base once I relocate.
After I get a little more financial autonomy I will look at other career opportunities, this is by no means a long term endeavor for me, the danger and physical toll it takes is just too much. At 35 I was already way too old to be doing this, at 43 it's just ridiculous.
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Well you sound as if you have thought this through and know how you want to handle this with this man.
I do agree with the posters who recommended you get a contract signed/money up front for the job. I work in a financial field and the contract my company has signed up for for facilities management has clauses in it for non payment, service level failures, fixed fee deductions etc etc. These things are well worth you looking into and including into your working practices.
I understand you do not want to be doing this job long term, but for the forseeable future, you are and therefore you should take steps to protect your rights as a contractor.
It should not be possible if they are tied to a contract with you to renegotiate with you after the fact, they have a legal document binding them to pay you a said amount under the agreed proposals etc layed out in your contract. This agreement you mention, is a legal document? - if so, you can enforce it, it is your right!
Good luck
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I do agree with the posters who recommended you get a contract signed/money up front for the job. I work in a financial field and the contract my company has signed up for for facilities management has clauses in it for non payment, service level failures, fixed fee deductions etc etc. These things are well worth you looking into and including into your working practices.
I understand you do not want to be doing this job long term, but for the forseeable future, you are and therefore you should take steps to protect your rights as a contractor.
It should not be possible if they are tied to a contract with you to renegotiate with you after the fact, they have a legal document binding them to pay you a said amount under the agreed proposals etc layed out in your contract. This agreement you mention, is a legal document? - if so, you can enforce it, it is your right!
Good luck
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oregon Coast
Posts: 168
Originally Posted by Ago 
Good stuff, OK, so one thing I am seeing is people aren't sure how to set up boundaries in a non confrontational manner, my ESH is,
One of the things I found helpful to setting boundaries was reading something called "fighting fair", it's all about using "I" messages, and for me, "I feel" being the most effective, I can argue with how you think, but I can't argue with how you feel.
Example, years ago I was in couples counseling/therapy and my GF said "yadda yadda blah blah and it upsets me"
the therapist said, "That's right"
I was outraged and indignant, and I responded with, "Blah blah yadda yadda" (my version of said events, clearly proving she was "wrong")
The therapist said, "that's right too"
She said, "our feelings were our feelings, and our perception of the events were our reality, that's what we saw and how we saw it"
I was ...flabbergasted...so now, If I have one view of a situation, and you have another, you aren't necessarily "wrong" and since then that has been one of the most important things I ever learned.
So we can both be upset, we can both have a different "take" on what happened but We can both be "right" if we are dealing with feelings.
When you ______ I feel ___________
By the way, this has only been effective for me if I was involved with a healthy person, it seems a hard concept to understand for someone who is "defended" all the time and has an absolute inability to "own their part" in a situation, and as a concept it's easily manipulated.
brb looking for a copy of "Fighting Fair"
here's one version:
Fights happen when we feel threatened about something that is important to us. Otherwise with the painfulness of conflict, we would be willing to let go of the issue. Some of our values, attitudes or possessions are challenged making us feel that our basic self esteem is threatened. We take a defensive stand and come out swinging. Unfortunately few of us know how to fight in a productive way. We have learned rules for fighting from those people who did not know how to express themselves in constructive ways--our parents. When we are challenged, we often revert back to our little child self, hurt and angry. We simply perpetuate poor communication habits because we do not know how to do anything different.
But wait! Research and family systems theory to the rescue! Here is what current psychology has to say about approaching the tricky problem of getting what you want without beating up yourself and your mate. Here are some ideas that will help you reduce heated arguments and stay on the track of figuring out what will be the best for both of you. Here are some rules for fair fighting.
* Don't let things fester inside. Anger must be expressed or it will build up. Schedule arguments ahead of time when you feel the pressure building up. Agree before hand that there are some things that you can disagree on (opinions on politics, personal interests and beliefs.) Other things must be worked through (how to raise the children, spend money, how you would like to be treated, etc..) Determine which category your topic falls in.
* Chose a time when you will not be distracted by family members, guests or television and when you both are relatively relaxed. Sit face to face and keep eye contact at the same level. Make a contract to discuss the issue of concern only and agree to avoid those ways of acting that sabotage problem solving. Make a commitment to use the rules of fair fighting.
* Express what is going on to the best of your ability. Talk feelings. Tell the person how you feel about what is going on. Feeling first, solutions later. Get your point across in a constructive way by owning how you feel about the topic. Use the formula sentence, When you _____, I feel ____ . This simple statement allows you to take responsibility for your own feelings and behavior without blaming the other person.
Learning to use this feeling statement to express your emotions helps you stay in the present and keeps you real. Practice this sentence over and over in times when you are not angry so that it becomes part of your vocabulary. Sharing of feelings increases intimacy. Avoid sentences that begin with You always.... Don't tell the other person what they always do in a blaming way, but focus on what you want to have happen. Keep coming back to the I feel formula that helps you own your own feelings. Talk feelings, talk feelings, talk feelings!
* Allow the other person's feelings to come out. Do not discount the other person's feelings by saying, You should not feel that way. All feelings of anger, disgust, jealously, despair, etc. are human and need to be expressed. Bottled up feelings that are uncomfortable will only serve to make the problem worse as resentment and bitterness increase.
* Show the other person that you really heard what he or she said. Repeat back what the other person just said. Say I heard that you said ______ and what I feel about that is __________. Listen for the feelings of hurt and threat behind their statements. Ask the other person for clarification if you do not understand what they are saying.
* Take turns talking. No monologues allowed. You should be able to make your point in less than a minute or two. Any longer turns into a lecture and You always or you should ____ which are blaming statements. Make sure the other person is listening. Only one person should speak at a time. Healthy conversation is like playing toss and catch. One person speaks and one person listens. Go back and forth with the conversational ball. Take turns talking.
* Stick to the topic. Do not bring in other sore issues. Agree to discuss the pertinent topic only saying, We are discussing______, not ________ Watch for ways you get off the track. Keep coming back to the issue under discussion.
* Stop using techniques that turn up the heat and move you both away from problem solving. Blaming, name calling, threatening, foul language and sarcasm decrease intimacy. Young children believe what they hear their parents saying. They are devastated when they overhear these forms of verbal abuse. These ways of communicating cut down on the possibility of your getting what you want out of the argument.
Take out blame statements and name calling. No problem is ever solved by telling the other person how bad they are. Name calling causes the person to revert back to their behavior and feelings they had as a little child when their parents scolded them. It either renders them helpless or makes them more angry. Name calling, criticism and blaming only perpetuate the problem.
Watch your use of cursing. Cursing adds negative energy to the confrontation placing the other person in danger of feeling shame. Cuss words are like waving a red flag at a bull and increase the heat of the argument. Know that your use of cuss works only shuts the other person down and that they feel the need to defend themselves further.
Do not make empty threats. Do not threaten to leave the relationship or order the other person to get out unless you really mean it. Threatening to break up the relationship only brings up more fear and defensiveness in the other person.
Stop using statements of sarcasm. Sarcasm is a learned habit of moving away from problem solving. Sarcasm is a form of dishonesty as you say one thing but mean another. It is a technique of distraction moving away from the issue at hand.
*Watch for ways you withdraw from the argument. Withdrawal from conflict is one of the most common reasons for causing a relationship to fail. Nothing is ever solved by leaving the issue hanging and both partners are left in feelings of hopelessness due to lack of closure.
The typical pattern is that men withdrawal and women push for more discussion. Another typical pattern is that women become compliant. They do not carry the topic through to closure but give up because feelings of helplessness and what's the use creep in.
* Schedule breathing breaks, or set a timer for every two or three minutes for a breathing break. During this time do not think of the argument and what you want to say. Think of being calm and relaxed. Say to yourself I respect my partner and his or her opinions. I respect myself and my opinions. When you start to become confused or upset, breathe deeply from your diaphragm to bring in more energy and stay centered.
*Watch your need to be right and win. Remember the quote from The Course In Miracles, Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. Tell the other person what you do want. Remember that you won't always get it but you need to express what you feel is best for you. Keep coming back to what you want but be ready to compromise. Stand firm only on those decisions which compromise your integrity as a person.
*Offer compromises. Stop investing in winning and using power plays and figure out what is really important to you. Tell the other person what you will give up if they give up something of value to them. Keep the negotiation open. Stop every five minutes to sum up what you do agree on and note where the disagreements still lie.
Make notes if necessary. Remind yourself and your partner about the importance of fighting fairly. See how you respond and cope when you feel threatened.
* Observe your patterns of coping with conflict by becoming compliant, using blame or withdrawing. Observe how you go for the jugular vein of the other person in attempts to get your way. Note how you are willing to attack your partner's vulnerable areas and make the conscious choice to stop doing this. Challenge yourself to change your own pattern of dysfunctional communication. When you slip off into changing the topic, name calling, sarcasm, withdrawal or compliance, state it to you partner, Look, I found myself doing _____. Make a commitment to break the dysfunctional pattern and stick to the positive ways of communicating. Keep coming back to the topic. Bring conflict back to the expressing of feelings level and willingness to negotiate.
These are the basic rules for staying clean while you disagree with someone. Now go to your corners and come out fighting! Fair fighting only!
Hold practice sessions with your partner to learn these stick to the topic and fight fair rules. Practice on topics that are not highly emotionally involved for both of you. Focus on improving your communication style instead of trying to win fights. Remember you, like everyone else, have had years of practice in the ways of dysfunctional communication. Keep asking yourself, Do I want to increase intimacy with my partner or do I want to win? What do I really want? Put your energy into problem solving at all times. Put your energy into learning about yourself and your partner.
When the discussion is over, evaluate yourself on how you did. Don't be a critical judge about your performance. Remember that you are learning new ways of acting. Be gentle with yourself. Give yourself credit for every time you remembered to fight fair. Make a contract with yourself on areas that you still need to change. Learning to fight fair is about self responsibility!
If you hear your parents speak through your voice when you are upset, you may be projecting your parents style of fighting on your mate. Projection is a style of slipping back into the past because of unresolved childhood issues. When you project, you confuse unresolved anger felt at your parents with your mate. There are techniques of hypnosis that can help you break projecting your anger at your parent on your current partner. If you have difficulty following these rules and your anger is highly irrational or so highly threatened by conflict that you avoid it at any costs, then you are operating out of the dictates of the unconscious mind. If applying these fair fighting techniques on your own does not work, then you may need some professional help to help you break old behavior patterns that stem from childhood.
Recent research shows that couples break up because they do not know how to resolve their differences through communication. Hostility only breeds more hostility. Venting the negative emotions may clear the air temporarily, but it does not solve the underlying problem and serves to make it worse. Backing away from the conflict and ignoring it only sends each partner into secretiveness, withdraw and isolation. The message becomes clear--the couple that fights together stays together happily only if they use the techniques of conflict resolution.
Becoming an observer of yourself during times of confrontation can give your realms of information about your defensiveness. Defensiveness is only a signal that you need to learn about how you protect yourself when you are threatened. You can learn about yourself and your patterns of coping with threat and ways to stay present and centered during disagreements. Bringing a problem to resolution and closure through continued discussion and compromise is an honorable acts it shows respect for the needs of both partners. Learning to fight fair and keep communication open can be an opportunity for growth for you as an individual and can increase the intimacy between you and your partner.
One of the things I found helpful to setting boundaries was reading something called "fighting fair", it's all about using "I" messages, and for me, "I feel" being the most effective, I can argue with how you think, but I can't argue with how you feel.
Example, years ago I was in couples counseling/therapy and my GF said "yadda yadda blah blah and it upsets me"
the therapist said, "That's right"
I was outraged and indignant, and I responded with, "Blah blah yadda yadda" (my version of said events, clearly proving she was "wrong")
The therapist said, "that's right too"
She said, "our feelings were our feelings, and our perception of the events were our reality, that's what we saw and how we saw it"
I was ...flabbergasted...so now, If I have one view of a situation, and you have another, you aren't necessarily "wrong" and since then that has been one of the most important things I ever learned.
So we can both be upset, we can both have a different "take" on what happened but We can both be "right" if we are dealing with feelings.
When you ______ I feel ___________
By the way, this has only been effective for me if I was involved with a healthy person, it seems a hard concept to understand for someone who is "defended" all the time and has an absolute inability to "own their part" in a situation, and as a concept it's easily manipulated.
brb looking for a copy of "Fighting Fair"
here's one version:
Fights happen when we feel threatened about something that is important to us. Otherwise with the painfulness of conflict, we would be willing to let go of the issue. Some of our values, attitudes or possessions are challenged making us feel that our basic self esteem is threatened. We take a defensive stand and come out swinging. Unfortunately few of us know how to fight in a productive way. We have learned rules for fighting from those people who did not know how to express themselves in constructive ways--our parents. When we are challenged, we often revert back to our little child self, hurt and angry. We simply perpetuate poor communication habits because we do not know how to do anything different.
But wait! Research and family systems theory to the rescue! Here is what current psychology has to say about approaching the tricky problem of getting what you want without beating up yourself and your mate. Here are some ideas that will help you reduce heated arguments and stay on the track of figuring out what will be the best for both of you. Here are some rules for fair fighting.
* Don't let things fester inside. Anger must be expressed or it will build up. Schedule arguments ahead of time when you feel the pressure building up. Agree before hand that there are some things that you can disagree on (opinions on politics, personal interests and beliefs.) Other things must be worked through (how to raise the children, spend money, how you would like to be treated, etc..) Determine which category your topic falls in.
* Chose a time when you will not be distracted by family members, guests or television and when you both are relatively relaxed. Sit face to face and keep eye contact at the same level. Make a contract to discuss the issue of concern only and agree to avoid those ways of acting that sabotage problem solving. Make a commitment to use the rules of fair fighting.
* Express what is going on to the best of your ability. Talk feelings. Tell the person how you feel about what is going on. Feeling first, solutions later. Get your point across in a constructive way by owning how you feel about the topic. Use the formula sentence, When you _____, I feel ____ . This simple statement allows you to take responsibility for your own feelings and behavior without blaming the other person.
Learning to use this feeling statement to express your emotions helps you stay in the present and keeps you real. Practice this sentence over and over in times when you are not angry so that it becomes part of your vocabulary. Sharing of feelings increases intimacy. Avoid sentences that begin with You always.... Don't tell the other person what they always do in a blaming way, but focus on what you want to have happen. Keep coming back to the I feel formula that helps you own your own feelings. Talk feelings, talk feelings, talk feelings!
* Allow the other person's feelings to come out. Do not discount the other person's feelings by saying, You should not feel that way. All feelings of anger, disgust, jealously, despair, etc. are human and need to be expressed. Bottled up feelings that are uncomfortable will only serve to make the problem worse as resentment and bitterness increase.
* Show the other person that you really heard what he or she said. Repeat back what the other person just said. Say I heard that you said ______ and what I feel about that is __________. Listen for the feelings of hurt and threat behind their statements. Ask the other person for clarification if you do not understand what they are saying.
* Take turns talking. No monologues allowed. You should be able to make your point in less than a minute or two. Any longer turns into a lecture and You always or you should ____ which are blaming statements. Make sure the other person is listening. Only one person should speak at a time. Healthy conversation is like playing toss and catch. One person speaks and one person listens. Go back and forth with the conversational ball. Take turns talking.
* Stick to the topic. Do not bring in other sore issues. Agree to discuss the pertinent topic only saying, We are discussing______, not ________ Watch for ways you get off the track. Keep coming back to the issue under discussion.
* Stop using techniques that turn up the heat and move you both away from problem solving. Blaming, name calling, threatening, foul language and sarcasm decrease intimacy. Young children believe what they hear their parents saying. They are devastated when they overhear these forms of verbal abuse. These ways of communicating cut down on the possibility of your getting what you want out of the argument.
Take out blame statements and name calling. No problem is ever solved by telling the other person how bad they are. Name calling causes the person to revert back to their behavior and feelings they had as a little child when their parents scolded them. It either renders them helpless or makes them more angry. Name calling, criticism and blaming only perpetuate the problem.
Watch your use of cursing. Cursing adds negative energy to the confrontation placing the other person in danger of feeling shame. Cuss words are like waving a red flag at a bull and increase the heat of the argument. Know that your use of cuss works only shuts the other person down and that they feel the need to defend themselves further.
Do not make empty threats. Do not threaten to leave the relationship or order the other person to get out unless you really mean it. Threatening to break up the relationship only brings up more fear and defensiveness in the other person.
Stop using statements of sarcasm. Sarcasm is a learned habit of moving away from problem solving. Sarcasm is a form of dishonesty as you say one thing but mean another. It is a technique of distraction moving away from the issue at hand.
*Watch for ways you withdraw from the argument. Withdrawal from conflict is one of the most common reasons for causing a relationship to fail. Nothing is ever solved by leaving the issue hanging and both partners are left in feelings of hopelessness due to lack of closure.
The typical pattern is that men withdrawal and women push for more discussion. Another typical pattern is that women become compliant. They do not carry the topic through to closure but give up because feelings of helplessness and what's the use creep in.
* Schedule breathing breaks, or set a timer for every two or three minutes for a breathing break. During this time do not think of the argument and what you want to say. Think of being calm and relaxed. Say to yourself I respect my partner and his or her opinions. I respect myself and my opinions. When you start to become confused or upset, breathe deeply from your diaphragm to bring in more energy and stay centered.
*Watch your need to be right and win. Remember the quote from The Course In Miracles, Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. Tell the other person what you do want. Remember that you won't always get it but you need to express what you feel is best for you. Keep coming back to what you want but be ready to compromise. Stand firm only on those decisions which compromise your integrity as a person.
*Offer compromises. Stop investing in winning and using power plays and figure out what is really important to you. Tell the other person what you will give up if they give up something of value to them. Keep the negotiation open. Stop every five minutes to sum up what you do agree on and note where the disagreements still lie.
Make notes if necessary. Remind yourself and your partner about the importance of fighting fairly. See how you respond and cope when you feel threatened.
* Observe your patterns of coping with conflict by becoming compliant, using blame or withdrawing. Observe how you go for the jugular vein of the other person in attempts to get your way. Note how you are willing to attack your partner's vulnerable areas and make the conscious choice to stop doing this. Challenge yourself to change your own pattern of dysfunctional communication. When you slip off into changing the topic, name calling, sarcasm, withdrawal or compliance, state it to you partner, Look, I found myself doing _____. Make a commitment to break the dysfunctional pattern and stick to the positive ways of communicating. Keep coming back to the topic. Bring conflict back to the expressing of feelings level and willingness to negotiate.
These are the basic rules for staying clean while you disagree with someone. Now go to your corners and come out fighting! Fair fighting only!
Hold practice sessions with your partner to learn these stick to the topic and fight fair rules. Practice on topics that are not highly emotionally involved for both of you. Focus on improving your communication style instead of trying to win fights. Remember you, like everyone else, have had years of practice in the ways of dysfunctional communication. Keep asking yourself, Do I want to increase intimacy with my partner or do I want to win? What do I really want? Put your energy into problem solving at all times. Put your energy into learning about yourself and your partner.
When the discussion is over, evaluate yourself on how you did. Don't be a critical judge about your performance. Remember that you are learning new ways of acting. Be gentle with yourself. Give yourself credit for every time you remembered to fight fair. Make a contract with yourself on areas that you still need to change. Learning to fight fair is about self responsibility!
If you hear your parents speak through your voice when you are upset, you may be projecting your parents style of fighting on your mate. Projection is a style of slipping back into the past because of unresolved childhood issues. When you project, you confuse unresolved anger felt at your parents with your mate. There are techniques of hypnosis that can help you break projecting your anger at your parent on your current partner. If you have difficulty following these rules and your anger is highly irrational or so highly threatened by conflict that you avoid it at any costs, then you are operating out of the dictates of the unconscious mind. If applying these fair fighting techniques on your own does not work, then you may need some professional help to help you break old behavior patterns that stem from childhood.
Recent research shows that couples break up because they do not know how to resolve their differences through communication. Hostility only breeds more hostility. Venting the negative emotions may clear the air temporarily, but it does not solve the underlying problem and serves to make it worse. Backing away from the conflict and ignoring it only sends each partner into secretiveness, withdraw and isolation. The message becomes clear--the couple that fights together stays together happily only if they use the techniques of conflict resolution.
Becoming an observer of yourself during times of confrontation can give your realms of information about your defensiveness. Defensiveness is only a signal that you need to learn about how you protect yourself when you are threatened. You can learn about yourself and your patterns of coping with threat and ways to stay present and centered during disagreements. Bringing a problem to resolution and closure through continued discussion and compromise is an honorable acts it shows respect for the needs of both partners. Learning to fight fair and keep communication open can be an opportunity for growth for you as an individual and can increase the intimacy between you and your partner.
I love love love this. This will help me at work and with friends and family. Thank you for taking the time to post this. I want to read that book now.
But. When ABF is drunk, this does not work. When ABF is craving a drink, this does not work. Same when he is hungover. Since he is either drunk, craving a drink, or hungover 100% of the time, how can I possibly “fight fair” with him? I can’t share my feelings. I can’t nurture intimacy. I can’t handle his sarcasm, cursing, and lying. It crushes my spirit. I cry and he rolls his eyes in contempt. So I detach. Detach. Walk away. And, in the end, I walk away from the relationship and end it. Because fighting fair can’t happen with a drunk.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 681
Boundries. I didn't learn the meaning of that word until I came here to SR almost a year ago. At 48 years old, I didn't know what a boundary was, how to set one, why I should and what to do if people crossed the boundary I had set. I'm serious, I didn't know people did that!
I thought you just helped people even if you didn't want to, you got mad when people took advantage of you, that was life. That's what my mom did, that's what I learned, that's what I thought was normal.
I was raised by an alcoholic, I married and alcoholic. A lifetime of very unhealthy relationship skills. Now I know better, and I've done better.
The very first boundary I set was that I will not be around someone who was drunk (to be determined by me, not the person who is doing the drinking) My action if the boundary was crossed is leaving the situation. My boundary was for ME. Not to manipulate the person drinking into stopping, not to shame them or for me to show superiority.
That boundary feels good! I couldn't choose to leave the situation as a child, and to an extent as an adult, but I can now. Boundaries are for you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
I've gone no contact with my alcoholic sisters, cut contact with my alcoholic brother in law, and life is calmer, more pleasant and less stressful. Boundaries are awesome.
Oddly my kids, who grew up with my husband being an alcoholic and me clueless about boundaries, know about boundaries and enforce them. I'm not quite sure how they learned that when I didn't model it for them. But they figured it out, and they are good with enforcing their boundaries.
I thought you just helped people even if you didn't want to, you got mad when people took advantage of you, that was life. That's what my mom did, that's what I learned, that's what I thought was normal.
I was raised by an alcoholic, I married and alcoholic. A lifetime of very unhealthy relationship skills. Now I know better, and I've done better.
The very first boundary I set was that I will not be around someone who was drunk (to be determined by me, not the person who is doing the drinking) My action if the boundary was crossed is leaving the situation. My boundary was for ME. Not to manipulate the person drinking into stopping, not to shame them or for me to show superiority.
That boundary feels good! I couldn't choose to leave the situation as a child, and to an extent as an adult, but I can now. Boundaries are for you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
I've gone no contact with my alcoholic sisters, cut contact with my alcoholic brother in law, and life is calmer, more pleasant and less stressful. Boundaries are awesome.
Oddly my kids, who grew up with my husband being an alcoholic and me clueless about boundaries, know about boundaries and enforce them. I'm not quite sure how they learned that when I didn't model it for them. But they figured it out, and they are good with enforcing their boundaries.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 821
Originally Posted by Wamama48
That boundary feels good! I couldn't choose to leave the situation as a child, and to an extent as an adult, but I can now. Boundaries are for you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
I learned that boundaries define us. They define what is me and what is not me. A boundary shows me where I end and someone else begins.
Setting boundaries was scary at first, sticking to them seemed almost impossible but it takes time and it really does get easier.
I have to always remind myself………………..
Givers need to set limits because takers rarely do.
When someone over steps my boundaries, there are letting me that what I want doesn’t matter.
I need to pay very close attention when people react with anger and hostility to my boundaries. That’s when I have found the edge where their respect for me ends.
Setting boundaries was scary at first, sticking to them seemed almost impossible but it takes time and it really does get easier.
I have to always remind myself………………..
Givers need to set limits because takers rarely do.
When someone over steps my boundaries, there are letting me that what I want doesn’t matter.
I need to pay very close attention when people react with anger and hostility to my boundaries. That’s when I have found the edge where their respect for me ends.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
That's great info about how to fight fair! Although I prefer to
say how to disagree fairly
About boundaries, this website has lots of articles and podcasts
and it's all about boundaries.
https://beyondbitchy.com/podcast/
say how to disagree fairly
About boundaries, this website has lots of articles and podcasts
and it's all about boundaries.
https://beyondbitchy.com/podcast/
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
