Reddmax

I understand that boundaries are for me. The problem I'm facing is one of context. I help out around the house when needed because of normal everyday issues. It makes it difficult to help out when the reason things are trashed is because 1/2 of the partnership is trashed. Then I get into those emotional boxes of "You do it when I'm busy with school work, why won't you do it now?" Then I have to reply "Because you drank all your time away". That's why I'm conjecturing that its mostly emotional blackmail I'm dealing with. The AW loves putting me into these ethical delemmas. If you'll do it in situation X, why won't you do it now. Then, if I put conditions down, the rages start.

Emotional blackmail is like anyother blackmail. I've got to stand up to it, or I'll be bullied forever.

Redd

denny57

I can only be emotionally blackmailed by someone whom I ALLOW.

I CANNOT CHANGE ANOTHER PERSON. I can ask for what I need. If they continue to act in a way I FIND UNACCEPTABLE, I am totally FREE to change my circumstances.

ToughChoices

These are not ethical dilemmas.
You have the right to decide what you are/are not willing to do in any given situation.

You do not have to sell her on your reasoning. You don't have to explain it to her in a loving and well-thought out manner.

If you don't want to clean the house, don't clean it.
If you don't want to buy her booze, don't buy it.
Just don't expect those actions to convince her to behave differently.

It is highly unlikely that what you choose to do will change her behavior.
You might as well choose to do what you like.

-TC

Jazzman

You help out around the house? What's that mean?

If the dishes are piling up they need to go in the dishwasher, if the dish washer is clean they need to be put away. If dirty clothes are piling up a load needs to be done. If the grass is getting long it needs to be cut.

Either I do these household tasks by myself because I currently have no live in partner or I share these tasks with a live in partner. If the other partner doesn't do stuff that needs doing then it's time to decide if this person is a true partner or more like a lazy teenager.

Sounds to me like your partner is more like a lazy teenager. Makes sense cuz that's exactly what it was like for me living with my ex.

LaTeeDa

I respectfully disagree. I don't think you understand boundaries at all. I'm not putting you down, or trying to be mean. It took me a long time before I got it. I said all the right words like "I know I can't control him" and "I know boundaries are for me" and "I can't make him see the light." And, to some extent, I think I understood on an intellectual level. But, I also deluded myself into believing that somehow I was different, somehow he was different. I was going to have my happy ending (they way I wanted it) despite the odds being against it.

The subtext of nearly all the posts I read by you is control. It may not be clear to you, but it seems to me that nearly every action you take has the ultimate goal of getting her to do things differently. And, at a very high cost to your own sanity and safety.

Understanding things from the intellectual standpoint is great and a necessary first step toward acceptance. I hope for your sake that the emotional understanding happens soon. Acceptance is tough. It hurts. It is also the beginning of the end of your suffering. (((Redd)))

L

Reddmax

La Tee Da,

I sort of get it. I think. Although, the first quoted line is a bit strange. Helping someone is co-dependent? Could you go into a bit more detail? That's a bit mind bending.... If someone asks you for help, in the normal days events, giving them help is co-dependent?

If we have joint accounts, and she buys wine? That becomes an ethical boondoggle.

I see that everything is pointing toward one message. Basically, leave her alone. To do that, because of her control of various situations, I'm going to have to leave her.

Redd

Freedom1990

Redd, I used to be the great analyst.

Thankfully I gave up that job years ago.

As long as I'm digressing, picking apart, putting back together, dissecting and looking at it under a microscope, rearranging it, putting it together again...I'm avoiding taking the actions I need to take.

Try getting out of your head for awhile and do what you need to do!

Reddmax

The Lazy teenager simile is apt.

La Tee Da, you're probably right, except I don't want to control her, I just want to keep her from bugging me, without resorting to the nuclear option of divorce. It's not going very well. I don't want to divorce, so I feel I'm getting forced into doing something stupid and silly. I've really got to bite the bullet.

Redd

ToughChoices

Redd,
I just wanted to let you know that I struggled with these very same issues.

My husband and I had a joint checking account for years.
We shared a home.
We shared car insurance policies.

It wasn't just hard to uphold my boundaries without trying to control him -
it was impossible.

I got really angry about the money that was spent on alcohol, and I fumed about the danger he put me in (legally) when he drove intoxicated.
But he wouldn't stop spending money on alcohol, and nothing I could do would convince him to stop driving drunk.

There was no way for me to live my life (as it had always looked, joint checking and all) in peace without relying upon him to change.

So I had to change the way my life looked.

It seems very simple now, but I remember how difficult it was for me to see the solution when I was in the middle of it.

Take care.
-TC

Ago

That is the essence of "control" though, "If only this, then that" "if only she would ____ I would be OK"

I think what we are trying to learn here is how to remain sane and happy no matter what "they" do, and if I can't accept conditions as they are, what can I do about it, how can I remain happy and sane? What is my "true bottom line"?

Barbara52

That is controlling her.

Mr B

That's not the only choice available to you. Your reply could be a whole range of things, from "I don't want to" to "I have better things to do" to "Why don't you?". My preference in that kind of lose-lose situation, though, is to not bother getting into the "why" at all. Don't even get into the discussion in the first place. What, you think you're going to win that argument? Do you really think you'll be able to have that discussion and then leave the room feeling that your views have been aired, she's taken you seriously and is humbly looking at her actions and considering your feelings with care and compassion? Or do you think it will descend into a slanging match where she uses this as an excuse to throw any and all accusations at you and you'll leave the room feeling hurt, frustrated and upset?

Fight the battles that are worth fighting. Fighting with an aggressive drunk to get her to clean the house more is not a fight you have a hope of winning. If the condition of the house is getting to you, do something about it (do it yourself, bribe your step-daughter to do it, pay for a cleaner etc) or leave. You won't be able to argue your way into her doing more housework because, as you said yourself, she was drinking instead. I'm sure you don't really believe that all you have to do is find the right magic words and she'll joyfully put down her glass and pick up a vacuum cleaner instead.

Those aren't your only choices. You can walk away from the bully and starve her of the attention and drama she so desperately craves.

I worked out with my XAGF that an awful lot of her behaviour is attention-seeking. She's like a poorly brought-up child. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative attention; anything is preferable to her than sheer disinterest by someone else. So she'll create drama and chaos partly to control, partly for the heck of it but also partly because she needs people to respond to her even if that's with anger rather than love. Deep down she's so desperately insecure that she'll take any attention she can get or stir up, rather than to simply be by herself.

Mr B.

HopeandPrayer

Then I get into those emotional boxes of "You do it when I'm busy with school work, why won't you do it now?" Then I have to reply "Because you drank all your time away".

My answer to this would be, "because it needs to be done and you were busy with school work." I wouldn't go into the drinking her time away part because that moves the dynamics from helpful to codie IMO.

If you clean, if you do laundry, if you buy groceries, do them because you want to. If she uses that against you later when you want her to help then that is her issue and how you respond to her determines if it is codie. IMHO it is all about language choices on our part in how we respond to venom they spue at us. If you don't play her game, if you walk away when she starts and leave the mess, yes she will get angry because you aren't playing the game anymore. It is all about how we respond.

Look at your motives on the actions you take, leave her out of the equation when you answer this. Then when it comes time to do this task again don't expect her to get involved, just do it without dialogue with her, ignore any comments she might make, tune her out or turn on a stereo so you can't hear her quacking, then see what happens.

This is just my oppinion, hope things get easier for you,
Barb

Jazzman

Separate your finances and set the boundary that you refuse to buy booze. Pay the mortgage and the car insurance... what ever, separate the bills based on an income proportionate ratio. Or.. leave her the bills that will not ruin your credit.

I get the feeling you're trying to either identify yourself as codependent or just a nice guy that gets abused sometimes by an out of control spouse. Lemme ask this, does it matter? In the great scheme of things... who cares really? Are you keeping score how much you help her as opposed to how much she helps you?

You have other choices that just leaving her. No one can tell you what to do but you can get some help in the direction you choose to go in.

Reddmax

So basically, there is only one way out? Live with her, and let her drive me nuts, or push the button and go nuclear.

Darn I hate thouse type of conclusions.

Redd

LaTeeDa

Explain to me how that is not control?

L

cmc

Redd...have you ever attended Al-Anon? If not why? Many, many people who attend and do the work in that program learn how to live with an active alcoholic. If that is what you truly want to do why not go and learn how others manage doing just that?

You say that you want "to keep her from bugging me without the nuclear option of divorce. It's not going very well."

When I get to an impasse or hit a brick wall....that's when _I_ need to do something different. Six meetings to start off. You are worth it.

ToughChoices

Who said this?

Attempting to stay sane while living with her is an excellent goal.
Attempting to stay sane while living apart from her is an excellent goal.

Note that YOUR sanity is of utmost importance here.
I don't care where you do it, Redd.
I just want you to find some peace.

-TC

LaTeeDa

Helping someone is not codependent. Behaving in a particular way because of someone else's behavior is codependent. "Rewarding" her by cleaning the house when she is doing something you agree with vs. "punishing" her by not doing it when she is doing something you don't agree with. Cleaning the house because you want it cleaned regardless of what she is doing is not codependent.

If your boundary is not paying for her addiction, you will have to separate your money from hers. No ethical boondoggle, just practical action.

L

HopeandPrayer

there are other ways, have you tried to use headphones, listen to music and ignore her tantrums, or ear pugs, they worked wonders for me.

It all depends on wether you allow her to drive you nuts. Only you can say when enough is enough, only you can control how you react to her when all this starts. There are many people on this forum that are still in relationships with their A's, it is a matter of what you do to take care of you and leave her to herself.

JMHO.
Barb