friends, tough love please!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Posts: 378
friends, tough love please!
I've allowed my XABF back into my life as a friend. A slippery slope indeed I know. Because though our relationship is not complicated by intimacy I still have strong feelings of love. As strong as ever. He's also been helping remodel my house and for the most part has been sober, with a few slips.
But there are other things that have not changed or actually have gotten even worse. For I am now complete secret from his ex wife (a woman he often describes as a bi***) whom he shares custody of his two sons with. he fears telling her about his relationship with me because it will jeapordize his visitations with his children. he also feels it's important that this children see them together occasionally and participate in family activities with them and the ex. All of which I understand but feel very demeaned non-the-less by the secrecy.
this weekend they have planned a camping trip. He made sure to let me know he will hve a seperate tent with one of the boys. and he asked me to "not get upset". then he asked me to think about this and decide if I still want to come over to his place and hang out.
thus I am asking you very insightful and strong people to tell me, convince me, that I need to somehow respect myself more than this and command that I deserve more than a secret friendship from this relationship.
Problem for me, is that I don't know how to do this.
I'm afraid of being alone. I'm also vulnerable at this time because i am also losing my job in next next few months and he's one of the few friends i have outside of work. oh and...my house remodeling isn't done yet...but I do have a backup plan for that, another friend agreed to finish it for a price.
so yes. bring on the tough love. I need strength right now. i don't want to cry and plead with him to understand, I want to somehow show him that this is not tolerable. that I want an open honest loving relationship.
thank you in advance!
But there are other things that have not changed or actually have gotten even worse. For I am now complete secret from his ex wife (a woman he often describes as a bi***) whom he shares custody of his two sons with. he fears telling her about his relationship with me because it will jeapordize his visitations with his children. he also feels it's important that this children see them together occasionally and participate in family activities with them and the ex. All of which I understand but feel very demeaned non-the-less by the secrecy.
this weekend they have planned a camping trip. He made sure to let me know he will hve a seperate tent with one of the boys. and he asked me to "not get upset". then he asked me to think about this and decide if I still want to come over to his place and hang out.
thus I am asking you very insightful and strong people to tell me, convince me, that I need to somehow respect myself more than this and command that I deserve more than a secret friendship from this relationship.
Problem for me, is that I don't know how to do this.
I'm afraid of being alone. I'm also vulnerable at this time because i am also losing my job in next next few months and he's one of the few friends i have outside of work. oh and...my house remodeling isn't done yet...but I do have a backup plan for that, another friend agreed to finish it for a price.
so yes. bring on the tough love. I need strength right now. i don't want to cry and plead with him to understand, I want to somehow show him that this is not tolerable. that I want an open honest loving relationship.
thank you in advance!
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
I do not have the words to make this better to make you see things clearly.
I know that I could never tolerate someone wanting to keep a friendship secret. I know I could not have a friendship with someone for whom I held feelings that were more than friendship. For me, secrecy implies shame, shame on the other's part that they are involved with me (I'm something that must be hidden?) and shame on my part since I would be implicitly agreeing that yes, you must keep me hidden because this is a relationship that should not be (whatever that reason might be). I could not have a relationship (of whatever sort) that is based on shame, secrecy and all that would go along with that in my head. And that doesn't even begin to tackle the red flags I would see from the person wanting to keep me a secret.
I know that I could never tolerate someone wanting to keep a friendship secret. I know I could not have a friendship with someone for whom I held feelings that were more than friendship. For me, secrecy implies shame, shame on the other's part that they are involved with me (I'm something that must be hidden?) and shame on my part since I would be implicitly agreeing that yes, you must keep me hidden because this is a relationship that should not be (whatever that reason might be). I could not have a relationship (of whatever sort) that is based on shame, secrecy and all that would go along with that in my head. And that doesn't even begin to tackle the red flags I would see from the person wanting to keep me a secret.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
No one could convince me I deserved more. I had to do the hard work MYSELF to come to believe that.
Today, no other person would keep me a secret and dictate my life to me.
Instead of showing him what you want, why not take 2 minutes and tell him? I suspect he already knows. What will you do if he tells you he is happy with the status quo? What action will you take?
I had to examine what I was getting out of sick relationships. Over the last year, I have "lost" quite a few friendships. They were not healthy and I am happier now.
Today, no other person would keep me a secret and dictate my life to me.
Instead of showing him what you want, why not take 2 minutes and tell him? I suspect he already knows. What will you do if he tells you he is happy with the status quo? What action will you take?
I had to examine what I was getting out of sick relationships. Over the last year, I have "lost" quite a few friendships. They were not healthy and I am happier now.
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: London
Posts: 219
You say that you've let him back into your life as a friend but then say you want an open loving relationship. There is no intimacy but you don't want to be in a seperate tent to him.
This is going to sound very harsh but it looks as though you are giving out more mixed messages than him!
This is going to sound very harsh but it looks as though you are giving out more mixed messages than him!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 73
I can tell you my experience. The first year I was with my exabf, we had almost the 'exact' same scenario. He didn't want his ex-wife to know about me because he didn't want to jeopardize visitation. He felt the need to do 'family' things together 'for the kids'. Etc., etc.,
Turns out, they were still together - in every way. I spoke to her directly and found out that the whole time, they were 'working on their relationship', and considering reconciling. He told me she was a 'b' too, but told her that I was a 'b'. If she saw my # on his phone, he would say something along the lines of, 'that crazy psycho won't leave me alone'. He was living a double life. Stringing us both along. And, he was such a wonderful manipulater, sweet talker and liar - it worked on BOTH of us for quite a while.
I can't say with certainty that this is what is happening with your triangle. All I can say is you just described the life I lived for a year...
Sending you strength & courage...
Turns out, they were still together - in every way. I spoke to her directly and found out that the whole time, they were 'working on their relationship', and considering reconciling. He told me she was a 'b' too, but told her that I was a 'b'. If she saw my # on his phone, he would say something along the lines of, 'that crazy psycho won't leave me alone'. He was living a double life. Stringing us both along. And, he was such a wonderful manipulater, sweet talker and liar - it worked on BOTH of us for quite a while.
I can't say with certainty that this is what is happening with your triangle. All I can say is you just described the life I lived for a year...
Sending you strength & courage...
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Hiya Sketscher--
You said you've let him back in as a friend...but do you have hope for a more romantic future together?
Many times on here I've read: Can you accept this person as they are today, can you accept how things are, today?
Peace,
B.
You said you've let him back in as a friend...but do you have hope for a more romantic future together?
Many times on here I've read: Can you accept this person as they are today, can you accept how things are, today?
Peace,
B.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Fort Wayne IN
Posts: 284
I agree with barbara, you are setteling for less. He sounds like a great manipulator of words and situations. Sorry but what he is doing-you are accepting-a bunch of *&^%.
The just friends sounds like he gets his cake and ice cream too. Going on a weekend camping trip, sorry I don't buy it, esp. if he says "now don't get upset'. He must think there is a reason to be upset. He may be (is) hiding sometihing. Honey, don't sell yourself short and put up with less than you deserve.
The just friends sounds like he gets his cake and ice cream too. Going on a weekend camping trip, sorry I don't buy it, esp. if he says "now don't get upset'. He must think there is a reason to be upset. He may be (is) hiding sometihing. Honey, don't sell yourself short and put up with less than you deserve.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
sketscher,
I could tell you a dozen things, and you would not "hear" them until you're ready.
I could question why you're so willing to live a lie.
I could ask why you think it's "just friendship" when you obviously want him back.
I could suggest that you're better than somebody's dirty little secret, having been someone's dirty little secret -- and the one who feels dirty is YOU, not him.
I could suggest that, if you're afraid of being alone and friendless, that instead of heading back into a sick relationship, you do the hard (but infinitely more rewarding) work of going out and building some new relationships.
But until you feel these things for yourself, you won't do anything but what you're doing. When you're ready to respect yourself more, it will reflect in what you're willing to put up with. Until then, protect your feelings as best you can....it sounds like, as usual, this situation is all about his needs, his feelings, and not a bit about yours.
Take care of yourself, regardless of what you decide!!
XOX
GL
I could tell you a dozen things, and you would not "hear" them until you're ready.
I could question why you're so willing to live a lie.
I could ask why you think it's "just friendship" when you obviously want him back.
I could suggest that you're better than somebody's dirty little secret, having been someone's dirty little secret -- and the one who feels dirty is YOU, not him.
I could suggest that, if you're afraid of being alone and friendless, that instead of heading back into a sick relationship, you do the hard (but infinitely more rewarding) work of going out and building some new relationships.
But until you feel these things for yourself, you won't do anything but what you're doing. When you're ready to respect yourself more, it will reflect in what you're willing to put up with. Until then, protect your feelings as best you can....it sounds like, as usual, this situation is all about his needs, his feelings, and not a bit about yours.
Take care of yourself, regardless of what you decide!!
XOX
GL
ever closer...
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 361
As a recovering alcoholic mom and wife I will tell you that you are absolutely crazy! Besides being a complete loser he is a liar and a cheat. He will never and has no intention of leaving his wife for you or anyone. Even without intamacy he is not being honest to anyone in the situation.
Get a Grip and Move On... you need to find some kind of self esteem workshop! Everytime you let him back he laughs in your face, he has it all, a wife, kids and a girlfriend. What do you have?
Just keep asking yourself that...What do I have?
Get a Grip and Move On... you need to find some kind of self esteem workshop! Everytime you let him back he laughs in your face, he has it all, a wife, kids and a girlfriend. What do you have?
Just keep asking yourself that...What do I have?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Speaking in derogatory terms about an ex is a huge red flag to me. It shows a lack of personal responsibility in owning one's part in the ending of a relationship. And if they speak that way to me about others, they will probably speak that way to others about me.
You say you are afraid of being alone. I was, too. When I dug down deeper into that fear, I began to make progress. And I learned that being with someone, anyone, just to avoid being alone was a big reason why I settled for an unavailable partner.
The best thing I ever did was switch my focus to myself. I had no idea how badly I was hurting myself.
Have you tried counseling? It was a huge help to me.
L
You say you are afraid of being alone. I was, too. When I dug down deeper into that fear, I began to make progress. And I learned that being with someone, anyone, just to avoid being alone was a big reason why I settled for an unavailable partner.
The best thing I ever did was switch my focus to myself. I had no idea how badly I was hurting myself.
Have you tried counseling? It was a huge help to me.
L
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Posts: 378
THANK YOU. I needed all of this!! I knew you guys would come through.
Putting it to me simply, like you all have is exactly what I needed.
He does have it all right now and what do I have?
I want to say all these things to him, but I have such a hard time articulating my thoughts without bursting into tears. Which always makes me feel weak. And i know it's not effective.
BTW I did go to counseling for a bit and gave it up for a couple reasons, financially i could no longer afford it (since I'm going to soon be unemployed) and it was so slow moving, I felt like I was getting no where, especially when she'd get the facts wrong about my life and begin talking about her own memories of childhood toys and such. but I know I NEED some kind of help with my self esteem.
Putting it to me simply, like you all have is exactly what I needed.
He does have it all right now and what do I have?
I want to say all these things to him, but I have such a hard time articulating my thoughts without bursting into tears. Which always makes me feel weak. And i know it's not effective.
BTW I did go to counseling for a bit and gave it up for a couple reasons, financially i could no longer afford it (since I'm going to soon be unemployed) and it was so slow moving, I felt like I was getting no where, especially when she'd get the facts wrong about my life and begin talking about her own memories of childhood toys and such. but I know I NEED some kind of help with my self esteem.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
sketscher, you might want to try checking out the mental health services in your area. Often they have counseling and other services available at low or no cost. And of course Al-Anon doesn't cost a penny.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 73
When I was looking for a thereapist, I talked to a few other people that have been to one. The thing I heard over & over was...'if you don't like the one you are going to, change!' Therapists are people we form relationships with also. They are not all a good fit for us. I would encourage you to try someone else - you might find it works alot better.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
she'd get the facts wrong about my life and begin talking about her own memories of childhood toys and such.
Oh my. Just as well that therapist is out of the picture. But ditto B-52 and keep seeking help in your area--it may seem slow at times but for me good therapy was the fastest way to make leaps in my awareness in recovery. I mean, time is going by no matter what you do!!
Peace sketscher-- I am glad you posted these questions here.
B.
Oh my. Just as well that therapist is out of the picture. But ditto B-52 and keep seeking help in your area--it may seem slow at times but for me good therapy was the fastest way to make leaps in my awareness in recovery. I mean, time is going by no matter what you do!!
Peace sketscher-- I am glad you posted these questions here.
B.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Posts: 378
I am so grateful to have you guys to turn to.
I talked to him on the phone already and told him as simply as I could, that i can't go on like this. that
"I know you're not intentionally trying to make me feel shameful or worthless but you are dishonest with her, so how can I know you're being honest with me"
"and the fact that it would upset her to know you're hanging out with me shows me that there is still something between you to"
"I'm in love with you, but it's like torture being around you when i know you won't give me what I deserve out of a relationship"
"you get to have everything and what do I get?"
Of course I don't think he really gets it. Not that he's stupid or uncaring but he did say "well call me later if you stop being so upset" as if i am still willing to hang out with him and forget all that I just said. And he also told me "I explained to you a long time ago how it has to be".
he did, he explained that he didn't want to be "with" anyone right now while he's trying to stay sober, he didn't want any complications or drama. to which I replied "i know but you also know how I feel and I can't help it".
I just have to stick with myself on this. Only I know how I feel in this, only I have to bear the "shame" and loneliness in this. Nobody has to understand how I feel or "not get upset". Nobody else has to be alone when they really need a friend or help with something.
What I'm trying slowly but surely is to be a better advocate for myself.
I talked to him on the phone already and told him as simply as I could, that i can't go on like this. that
"I know you're not intentionally trying to make me feel shameful or worthless but you are dishonest with her, so how can I know you're being honest with me"
"and the fact that it would upset her to know you're hanging out with me shows me that there is still something between you to"
"I'm in love with you, but it's like torture being around you when i know you won't give me what I deserve out of a relationship"
"you get to have everything and what do I get?"
Of course I don't think he really gets it. Not that he's stupid or uncaring but he did say "well call me later if you stop being so upset" as if i am still willing to hang out with him and forget all that I just said. And he also told me "I explained to you a long time ago how it has to be".
he did, he explained that he didn't want to be "with" anyone right now while he's trying to stay sober, he didn't want any complications or drama. to which I replied "i know but you also know how I feel and I can't help it".
I just have to stick with myself on this. Only I know how I feel in this, only I have to bear the "shame" and loneliness in this. Nobody has to understand how I feel or "not get upset". Nobody else has to be alone when they really need a friend or help with something.
What I'm trying slowly but surely is to be a better advocate for myself.
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