gwoo

I have been off booze for 2 1/2 years. I did the 90 AA meetings in 90 days and all the rest and now am admittedly an intermitent attendee.

When I started all this I simply told my wife that she could do as much or as little as she wanted, and she has pretty much opted for doing nothing. She still drinks in my presence and there's still beer and wine around the house, as she never had a problem with booze.

Our relationship, however, really has not improved all that much. In fact, in some ways it's worse. We never had compatible fight styles, as they call it, as in my family the first one to raise their voice "lost" by losing control of their emotions, while in her family, the one who yelled the loudest won by drowning out the others.

Recently I have found myself being flooded with feelings of guilt as to how lousy it must have been living me stewed all the time. While I don't have a huge tale of woe to lay out in that I never lost my business, or my house, or my license, etc, it still had to suck on a day to day basis if I was hammered. When I started the AA track, I sat all the kids down and went through it with them. Likewise, my first sobriety chips I would give to my wife with a note saying I knew it wasn't much, but it was the best I could offer at the time.

So color me impatient waiting for some improvement in our relationship. I sit here wondering if she was always this difficult to live with and I am just now figuring it out now that I have taken the Beer Goggles off, or was I such an ass that I have turned her into this person. Either way it is not fun to live with.

If I felt there was hope for change I'd be more inclined to want to stick this out. I'm 49 and married 25 years. I'm so flipping monogamous I only fantasize about my wife, for crying out loud.

We now cycle around me trying to say that there's been a drop off in intimacy and I feel ignored. From her it is that I am depressed and angry. I then say it's the build up from letting things slide all the time and then losing it in a manner not proportionate to the incident but from the build up in frustration. I even crafted an e-mail choosing my words carefully the last time I brought up the subject. In it I begged her not to turn it back on what my faults were, as we had focused enough on me for a while, but rather I wanted to know what she felt she could do about it.

Not two minutes into the discussion after a week, I got that her issues were the result of my anger and depression "all the time," and that she would be willing to go see someone with me.

The woman cannot admit to a personal foible if her life depended on it.

I have quit drinking with no relapse, a "pink cloud" recovery as they call it. I have quit smoking with the benefit of some anti-depressant called Wellbutrin. I have stayed on the anti-depressant for her, given she flat out told me how much "nicer" I was on it, yet now my being on it isn't enough and isn't working.

I really feel like I am giving this all I have got, and am beginning to think she has so much animosity towards me that no amount of time in the world is going to get her to forgive me.

There has to be some books about this or perhaps a more detailed website about it from HER perspective, not mine. As I have done with other things, I feel as though I need to figure this out from her perspective and then try to introduce her to it in order to get her to do something about it.

I have looked at finding counselors, but first they are a scheduling pain in the arse (she has a day job, I run a consulting/research business) and secondly I am tired of having all difficulties in the marriage revolve around me and what I need to do. Just for my own self confidence alone, I could really stand to have a marital discussion that was not simply a lengthy listing of what it is that I am doing wrong and why that is the reason she is the way she is.

Your thoughts and insights will be appreciated greatly. Thank you.

respektingme

You sound like you both are having communication issues. She said she's willing to go see someone. I'd take her up on it. You sound angry. Just for the record, I took Welbutrin for a while and felt explosive, unpredictable rage. Although I didn't act on it, I recognized quickly that the meds were causing a change in me, not to the positive. Just want you to be aware of that as well. Certainly sounds like some open lines of communication could help you both.

Reality

Hi and welcome,

Your sharing is just another perfect example of the "dry-alaon" syndome. (I made that up).

The family members are just as ill s the alcoholic if left untreated, and whose behaviors mimick the alcoholic almost exactly.

Just as she could do nothing to get you sober, there is nothing you can do to make her get recovery, or want to change.....you can just change yourself.

Im assuming she has never tried al-anon, or wishes to. Perhaps you might find help there. I have tons of AA friends who also attend al-anon, to work on their relationships. Thats what al-anon does for me....help and hope indealing with spiritually ill people.

Thanks for posting and keep coming back!

gwoo

Respektingme, I would submit what you are taking as anger is frustration, frankly.

Can I snap? Sure.

Barbara52

Sometimes relationships die. Its unfortunate but it is what it is. I would guess that joint counselling is what is needed. You both either make it a priority or you don't.

LaTeeDa

We put lots of different labels on emotions. Behind most them, however, is fear.

I agree with the other posters. Since she is willing to go to marriage counseling, that is probably the best thing you can do.

L

gwoo

So in order to save the marriage, I need to accept yet another indignity. We can go to counseling where it can all be couched in, "I'm here because he's an *******. I agreed to go to get him here." Etc, etc.

Wow.

The notion of counseling sets off a whole host of lousy memories for me based on my mother having been a full blown manic depressive before I was even born. Shock treatments, pyschotherapy, you name it. It wasn't until her regular doctor retired and a young GP starting out took her over and introduced her to lithium that her life straightened out. I've seen crazy. Hell, I have committed crazy several times in my life starting at 16.

I have absolutely no desire to relive all of that nonsense. The woman died 11 years ago. I'd prefer to leave that in peace.

But, I have looked around for a counselor in the past couple of days while my wife is dropping a kid off at college. It's all during the day when my wife works in a school, so that will cause issues. I had hoped to have someone lined up when she got home this evening, but that is not going to be in the cards. I really do not want to do all the digging around to find someone for this when I really do not want to go in the first place. It seems all our "relationship" discussions invariably get around to discussing what my problems are and what I need to do. I walk away with an action item list, while she'll grudgingly agree to be more mindful of a,b, or c.

How long does one do penance after one sobers up? I did the "no major changes" for a year. I didn't make demand one in year one.

Yeesh.

Tally

I would say that being with my abf changed me as a person for the worse...It took me a while to realise that I'd changed and that I didn't like it and that it wasn't "all" him, because quite frankly it's easier to blame someone else than look at ourselves. I do blame my bf being an alcoholic on me changing, but then I chose to stick with him so it's my fault too. Maybe your wife doesn't realise that she's changed, maybe she's still stewing on past resentments?
Like the others said, you can't change her, just as she couldn't change you, it has to some from within I guess, and if she can't see it there's not much you can do to make her see...Sounds like you need to do a bit of detaching and focus on you until she sees for herself.

gwoo

Sure. I am real fearful of never getting this marriage back on an affectionate footing. We argue about the balance between the time spent with kids, of which there are 4, and the time just for us. I apparently made a big mistake when I said that I think the last time she took time to do plan time for the two of us to be away alone together was 19 years ago. I really struck a nerve, so I asked gently if I had forgotten anything in the interim. But that was the beginning of the "shut down" on her part of the last discussion.

We have that going for us as well. We "fight" differently. In my family the person who raised their voice lost, as they lost their composure, while on her side the one who yelled the loudest won by drowning out the other side. So she'll scream and yell and then be fine with it very shortly thereafter, while I will be smoldering for a while, as I simply cannot stand yelling even though I have managed to become quite adept at it, unfortunately.

To keep from yelling and screaming, I tried e-mails. In this way I could choose my words carefully and keep from getting triggered by angry rebuttals and hurtful comments that would prompt me to seek to return the favor.

Those e-mails could go days without responses while there's the cheery interactions to discuss the scheduling details of getting this kid there, and that kid here, and on and on and on. In short, when the issue was the way in which I could serve as her administrative assistant running the household, we could communicate, but when it comes time to focus on our relationship, there's a wall.

I cannot tell you how much that hurts.

Barbara52

Gee, I don't see anyone saying anything remotely like that. Counselling can be helpful but only if those involved with it want it to be helpful and approach it with an positive, honest attitude.

If you find you don't want to go to counselling, then you get to decide what other options you have. There are always options.

And no you don't have to pay penance for your former addiction any longer than you want to. But choosing to no longer pay penance (as you put it) will have consequences (good and bad) that you need to think about.

respektingme

gwoo, I was telling you about the effects I experienced with Welbutrin just for your information, period. We can all snap.

About your last post regarding seeing a counselor, it seems like you have it all summed up. At that rate, no, I doubt going will do you any good. You have to be humble, be willing to listen and be willing to make changes. Counselors vary in their skill level. The key is finding a good one. I don't think they would all say exactly the script you play out in your head, but you sound like you've given up. Your wife said she'd go. I don't know how much more support from others you expect to receive here. I mean, if she said she wouldn't go, than you'd probably get more. But your wife seems open. If you are not, than you seem to be the barrier for the communication lines opening.

A good counselor can help your marriage get better or it may help you both realize you're better off apart. But it sounds like you've gotten sober so your wife should be willing to be intimate with you. From experience, I can tell you there's a lot more to wanting intimacy than one just not drinking. She may be telling you she doesn't want intimacy because she's depressed, but there may be more to it than that and you likely won't hear it all until you get into counseling with her and she feels in a safe enough environment to shoot you the truth.

Bernadette

Hi Gwoo-
Congrats to you on your sobriety. That's wonderful.

How long do you have to do penance? Well that depends on the nature of your crimes! If you feel you have worked through your wrongs and made amends and if you are in the recovered mode of promptly admitting wrongs etc. then maybe your penance is done. At some point, with my Dad, aafter maybe 2 or 3 years of his recovery things seemed to catch up to Real Time. Meaning he was no longer making up for the past constantly, he was in the moment and keeping it real in the moment. However - until the day he died (20 yrs into recovery) things would come up, naturally, that had happened during the drinking years (like my entire childhood!). He could get uncomfortable and squirmy, but mostly serious, humble, and apologetic...I think a strong part of his recovery was owning up to his past behavior. He wasn't a whipping boy though- he was just very honest and humble and apologetic.

His acceptance and ownership of what he did to us was huge. But it ended there. He knew it was up to each of us how we would deal with it.

My mother continues to behave in very warped codie ways. She was really worn down by my father's alcoholism (25 yrs of it) and her way of choosing to deal with it ended up warping some of her very best qualities....

Patterns and dynamics in a long-term relationship are very very hard to change! Is your wife happy with the way things are? I mean, if you're both miserable and there's no satisfactory level of intimacy for you both and it sounds like neither of you is REALLY willing to commit to counseling (we will always make a big effort, if that's what's required, to schedule things we really want to do) then maybe the relationship has run its course?

In any event it's not healthy for either of you to be sitting there waiting for the other person to change. That's why many of us are here on this forum - because we needed to find ways to accept that we could not change our loved ones (get them to STOP drinking/drugging) and to get into action working on ourselves.

If you guys can't get it together to do couples counseling you know you can continue to work on yourself Gwoo! You said you go to meetings intermittently? Maybe step up your attendendance - this issue you're dealing with has to be very very common among recovered alcoholics and must get some play in AA.

Peace,
B.

gwoo

I somehow goofed up

hadenoughnow

I was married to an A for 16 years. By year 11 I no longer cared to be intimate in any way with him nor did I want to "work things out". After years of dealing with his alcoholism I can say that there was nothing he could have done, I just didn't love him anymore.

Her feelings or lack of them is not a "personal foible".

gwoo

I wanted to plug this into reply #14 as I had somehow goofed up the post, but it won't let a change. Perhaps the administrator can just delete response #14?

Anyway ...


I am not sure how much I really want to share on the intimacy front, but it is not as though we've, like the old joke goes, delved exclusively into oral sex by muttering F-You to each other in passing. Where once it was 3-4 times per week, it has waned to 2 to 3 times a month. If there's sufficient time passed it can still be a, uh, multi-rewarding experience.

There were complaints of feeling "pressured" all the time for sex, so I have made a point of not initiating sex in bed while still offering up hugs and kisses while out and about in the home.

Given there has been statements to me that the issue is not with me, just lack of overall interest, it seemed to suggest it was something more related to peri-menopause than to me being an inveterate booze-bag who had ruined her. But, given that I am an inveterate booze bag, I have rooted around for forums that can help with the discussion or interactions with recovering alcoholics while also checking the more "normal" explanations independent of my alcoholism just in in case it isn't me in actuality.

Let's also be clear that there have been no relapses (so far, god willing). There have not been the yo-yo of emotions based on me going out for a pack of smokes and coming home stinking drunk 14 hours later.

I argue that my attempts to quit drinking started about 4 to 5 years before I finally went cold turkey. I would try to moderate it. I would switch to red wine, and on and on and on. I never lied about drinking. I never said I would quit. A couple of times I flat out told her I did not want to quit, but would cut back.

So I did all that crap before I finally decided that I had to quit. I looked her in the eye and told her I would quit and that if I was going to have a drink, I would tell her in advance of having it. The night of my second AA meeting she was in a frenzy thinking I had gone somewhere to get hammered because I was gone so long and was pretty shaky leaving for the meeting. (It was a Friday night, muscle memory was to start having a couple of beers in the office tying up loose ends, so I was usually half lit by 5 pm, so it was a tough one where I had to go hang onto my chair. <G>) In actuality I was talking with a guy in the parking lot. She was open and honest to me about the fear, and while it hurt, I could see the reason for it, and have made a point since of calling if I am to be considerably late.

So this set of difficulties could or could not be related to my drinking. She insists it isn't. I think back on what it must have been like to live with me, and wonder if it is. I can sense some real anger and animosities in the writings I've perused here, so maybe that stuff is below the surface with her. So I am not sure if she knows what's motivating her reactions. Respecktingme mentioned that perhaps she needs a "safe place to shoot me the truth." I am unclear as to what that means, but certainly hope it is not to insinuate anything about her physical safety in my presence.

I mean, I've looked at WebMD sites that suggest other things as being logical answers, and I have my own feelings it has to do with me. She tells me it's not me, I still feel ignored and wonder why, and around and around it goes. Hence why I was looking to find something to read about the marital relationships of drunks and spouses. Not whether someone lurches from broken toy to broken toy, but more insights into very long term commited relationships and how to work through it. I'd much prefer working through it together with a book or a couple of books than taking a (very expensive) flyer on a counselor who may or may not have the intellectual wherewithal to be of assistance.

So far I have read "Disarming the Narcissist" where I could find examples of each of us as the narcissist which I certainly found amusing. We are both youngest children so the joke has been we both want to be in charge and get our own way. I also have one I just started about Highly Contentious Couples (or something like that) for which I bought two copies and then another one that was recommended as a companion book by Amazon.

So again, to cycle back, good books for the spouse of an alcoholic, or a collection of stories would be useful.

theotherone

Personally, the years of emotional and verbal abuse has taken it's toll. I tried telling him early on that he was slowly chipping away at my love for him. He continued to "chip away" until my love and interest finally crumbled.

As a codie I practiced alot of coping skills...some healthy, some not so healthy. I beganto realize after a while that I could and would be better off without that person who is destroying all respect, love and yearning that is required in a healthy relationship.

My AH is not experiencing any kind of recovery and is still in the strong stages off denial. I have thought about how I would handle things if he ever chose sobriety and worked a program and wanted to recommit to the 26 year relationship. Quite honestly, right now, I want no part of it.

gwoo

The senitment you express theotherone is the one I fear the most. I certainly have the love and yearning for her, and only she can say if I've given her enough respect.

But, yeah, the more I think back on being loaded, the more I wince.

LaTeeDa

A good book that was recommended by my counselor is "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. It's not specifically for alcoholic relationships, but troubled relationships in general.

L

TTOSBT

Gwoo, I am new to recovery (3 1/2 months) and still trying to figure this all out myself. I have been seeing a therapist for me since I got sober in addition to attending AA. The therapy is for me and about me but we do discuss my marriage, etc. I know that my husband probably has his own issues, with me AND himself. There is not a lot I can do about that except to be the healthiest, best person I can be. So I guess that is my answer for what it is worth, even though you have been sober for 2 1/2 years, you still have work to do and recovery to be had.

My suggestions for working on you.
#1 Do you have a sponsor that you work with? If not, get one.
#2 Have you worked the 12 steps? If not, do so and if yes, do them again
#3 Go see a therapist for you, about you.
#4 Back off of your marriage for a little bit while you do these things and take it back full circle to focusing on you and your recovery. In the meantime, be the best partner that you can be. Give consideration to her needs and wants (for instance helping with the juggling of the kids, etc.) as much as possible without becoming resentful.
#5 Do you have a higher power? Do you have a daily connection with your HP? If not, get one and work with it.
#6 Maybe talk to your doc about trying another antidepressant?
I wish you the VERY best and just remember, you can only change YOU, you have no control over anyone else.
Peace.

theotherone

gwoo...I commend you on your recovery! That in itself is an honor!

I don't want to dash any hopes for you and yours (every situation is different), but TTOSBT is right. You can only work on you and make changes in you. Grow with your recovery and be the best that you can be...no one knows what tomorrow will bring. I sincerely send best wishes and will keep you in my prayers.