anubus

Okay guys...please be GENTLE on me.....I'm new and LEARNING... PLEASE READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU RESPOND.

I'm new, But I've been reading every book i can get my hands on, reading these threads like a mad woman, went to my first AA meeting.......loved it by the way. Trying to understand this horrible, dreadful desease. I HAVE to ask questions, in order to totally UNDERSTAND and come to terms with everything. So this may be totally Codependant........but I HAVE to wonder, and ask....so I can either try it, or put this notion to rest in my mind. Recovering Alcoholics, please reply too!!
Please read and fully understand what I am writing before you all bash me with a totally "dump him" "leave" "close all contact" etc attitude. I don;t know why, but I feel this Alnon-on thing is pretty darn HARSH (yikes, please understand me!!).
I heard a guy today at AA saying how many times he tried/failed/came back/tried/failed.....this went on for years...he said if it wasn't for a couple of guys who kept calling him fromAA, offering to help, not judging, not pushing, just calling to see how he was.....he would never have found the strength to come back to AA, and eventually quit drinking They continued to phone him, even months after he quit attendig meetings ( and obviously DRINKING).
Then in the next room, Alon-on people, ranting about "Leave Him" "He'll never change" "Nothing you do will work" "You desreve better" "Don't call him off work" "don;t make his lunch for work" "He's just not worth it" "just LEAVE and TEACH HIM".....pretty opposite sides of the fence, from what I saw.

Okay......to my question.....From what I am reading, so much of this desease is due to low self esteem. Alcoholics basically hate themselves.....have extremely low self esteems. That's the root of the problem, basically.....right? Correct me if I am wrong.

Well, from personal experience...I am NOT an alcoholic...BUT.....I had (have?) a very low self esteem......all my life. I was raised in a "semi (dis) fuctional") family that didn't know how to show love, approval, etc. Not the worst, but certainly not the best either!! So I had a very hard time in life...always felt inedaquate.....felt VERY insecure in jobs, made bad choices in my teenage & older years, totally screwed up on alot of things in my life.

How did I get help? NOT by people abandoning me. NOT by people critsizing me. NOT by people throwing me out. RATHER.......By super sweet people I was blessed to have sent into my life. Employers that COMPLIMENTED me for a good job. They constantly said THANK YOU to me OVER & OVER!!!! I would think "why is this person thanking me? I'm only doing this because I HAVE to to get money".
My current boss keeps telling me what a blessing I am to their life, how fortunate they are to have me, what would they do without me.......honestly, I keep telling THEM what a bleesing the job is......it virtually saved my house from forecolsure when my Adult Child Of A left!!!

A few people in my life that never said "I told you so" when I screwed up (trying to save my destined for divorce relationship...they were just "there", offering support. Over & over. I fI screwed up, they were still there. It slowly raised my self esteem. I didn't have family members to do it (they were critical/dysfunctional), friends were often not helpful. Because I felt so inferior, people who tried to "help" by telling me what I was doing wrong, only made things worse. I'm a lady, so hearing a few guys tell me that I desreve better, and encouraging me, sayig things that would build my self esteem were EXTREMELY helpful.

Okay, sorry for the history/ramble......but I keep wondering & trying to put this all in proper preospective.

Has anyone really tried HONESTLY to conquer their A SO with PRAISE & COMPLIMENTS? Building his/her self esteem this way?? I don't mean doing it once or twice.....it would have to be an ongoing thing.......they hate themselves & it is deeply ingrained in their subconscious mind, so it would take a daily, long term re-inforcemant to work. But I can't help wondering.....WOULD IT WORK???????????????
If we daily affirmed to our loved ones, complimented their good traits, encouraged their decisions (however wrong ones, within reason) etc....instead of being so quick to cut them down for their mistakes, seeking the LEAVING thing......WHAT WOULD HAPPEN??????

WOULD IT BOOST THEIR SELF ESTTEM WITH TIME??????????? I tend to think it WOULD (again, I'm codie., and still wanting to think there are ANSWERS.

Just curious to your thougths, and Has anyone HONESTLY tried this???

TTOSBT

Hmmm. Ok, I understand the "theory" and btw, I LOVE positive affirmation myself. I am a recovering alcoholic. I got a lot of kudos for various things from family, friends, employer, etc. (I was a VERY functional overachieving alcoholic). This did not change how I felt about myself. Because you see, I KNEW the truth, who I really was. They did not, they only saw what I chose to show them. So love and praise could not get me sober. I had to hit a bottom where I wanted/needed to change more than I wanted to escape in the bottle.

And then comes the question, what do you want for YOUR life? Can you be happy foregoing your needs, your happiness, your life to make him better with positive affirmation? I do not know anything about what goes on in Al-anon meetings, but what you heard doesn't sound like what I imagine Al-anon should be. I mean, it IS based on the same principals of AA, right? You can choose to stay and live with an alcoholic. But if you do, you have to choose to let him drink or not drink. You have to not say a thing about it because that would just make him feel worse, right?

I know I am rambling but I am trying to imagine what your life would be if you chose to live this experiment. Again, it is your life and your choice (as long as children are not involved). No one says you can not LOVE him. You just have to decide how you want to live your life, because truly, that is the ONLY life you have control of.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change (whether he drinks or not)
The courage to change the things I can (myself, my life and my reactions)
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

Live

No one has the right to bash you and no one has the right to tell you whether to stay or go!
Meet Japico, she stayed and is a great example and role model of al-anon.
I think most of us have tried just about everything to save our loved ones....as Ann says, if that were possible, this forum wouldn't exist. You will need to let go of your belief that you can cure it, however.
Best wishes,
Live

Taking5

Great post.

I am a recovering alcoholic as well. I have often told people to dump their A, but only when the collateral damage - especially on the kids - is too high, or when a person is starting to get deeper in. For example, there was a thread yesterday where a young woman wanted to know if she should MARRY her A, who has all of 33 days sober! You can guess my answer to that!

Having said all that, I do get extremely frustrated with comments like "Alcoholics never recover" or "he'll never change". BS. There are hundreds of thousands of recovered alcoholics, I am sure you probably know one or two.

I think bashing for the sake of bashing is counterproductive. Do not ever enable an Alkie/Addict! Ever. This includes little things like making his lunch, IMHO.

I also believe a fair amount of women in Alanon have no clue what alcoholism is. There was a woman who posted here saying her man was an A because he had 2-3 beers a night, 4 nights a week. I drank a bottle of bourbon a day, every day, sometimes more. I wanted to tell her that her man's first step should be "my wife has become unmanageable".

Along similar lines, people with a hard core alkie like me often think quitting is easy. It probably is - for them. Quitting was the second hardest thing I ever did. Staying quit is the hardest. Just because non-alcoholics don't understand/have never experienced that does not mean it isn't real.

I think Alanon is similar to AA in the following respect. AA rooms have tons of people who really don't want to recover - court ordered folks (who don't necessarily have a problem), people who want to "control" their drinking, etc. Some of the latter group may eventually "get it".

Likewise, Alanon has tons of people whose SOs have no problem (example above) or who just want to bitch about their SO and have no real interest in their own or their SO's recovery. Some of the latter group may eventually "get it" as well.

"Stick with the winners" is a phrase in the rooms of AA. I think you might try that in Alanon as well.

Good luck, keep posting and let us know how you are doing.

Rainbowsend

I tried what you are suggesting for well over a year, it didn't help his addiction but made him more self centred, arrogant and oppinionated as he started to believe his own publicity and used it as a stick to beat me with.

Many people on here have shown huge amounts of love and support to their partners over a great number of years but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work. If an A needs to work on their self esteem it is better done with the support of a 3rd party such as a therapist

sunflowerintx

I tried everything. When I was finally detached, I was told by my stbx that I didn't love him, didn't care about him, etc. He pushed me and pulled me and finally, drove me away.

Nothing worked for US, unfortunately. I don't know if he's drinking or not and it's just not my business right now. The only time it will ever be my business is if he has our children.

I understand what you're asking in this post. No one in Alanon ever told me to leave unless he was violent. And he WAS. For a good year or so I had a sponsor who used to tell me I needed to sh** or get off the pot. May she rest in peace.

The bottom line is it doesn't matter if you are the best SO on the planet or if you're a stark raving lunatic. An alcoholic will choose, and stick with, recovery when s/he is READY. The only thing you can do to speed it up a bit might be to allow the A in your life to face the consequences of his/her drinking. Other than that, it is really your decision to stay or go.

freeflower

I did try it. 8 years ago when my ah was arrested 2 times in 8 months for driving drunk..I had had enough. When he was released from jail, he knew not to even call me so he went to his fathers. I wasn't going to go back. I was ready for a divorce. I had been dealing with this problem for years, raised my kids basically alone while he drank.
I was so scared and upset and every codie thing I could do I did. He started coming over during the day when I was gone at work and working on our house to eventually sell. He would leave me notes. Pouring out his love for me and his apologies for all the years of crap. I would write back. Soon, we where saying things on paper that we never said before. Finally after 4 months of this, I had him over for dinner. I wanted to know what was going to happen to him. He told me about the jail time coming and the loss of his licence and about a court ordered rehab. My heart melted and I decided I had to help him. Needless to say, he hadn't had a drop since the last arest..I let him come home. I would set my alarm to drive 20 miles to get him out of jail and take him to work, go home and go to work my self and than drive him back etc. I tryed to reassure him in bed ( he was having a hard time...) and we talked openly about everything. We spent our weekends shopping and making fabulas food and I felt like my love had cured him. I told people I was never in love like this, ever.
It lasted probably about 6 months. I weakened and would allow na beer. Soon, He would incourage me to go shopping with friends, go to the movies with friends and when I would come home, he would be unusually chatty and upbeat hummm...kinda like before when he was drinking. But no way would he start again???
Bottom line and 7 years later, many super sad events of his drinking and denial right to my face, him hiding beer and me secretly searching for evidence, him sleeping on the couch, no intimacy for 18 months at a time, to driving again while drinking, blew me out of the water. I just sat back and watched in disbelief that after all this stuff we had went thru that he would risk it again. HIs job, his respect he had earned back from his family...his supporting wife who thought only of his feelings. I sat silent for two years and just watched him disappear. I sort of detached and didn't even know anything about it or the real facts of alcoholism. I lost my love for him, and I moved out. After 28 years of marrage. I found this web site and it has saved my sanity. I thought I was just one big selfish bitch who walked out on her man in pain. I had to save my self. I tryed to love him better. It didn't work for us and it took a huge toll on me mentally.
Maybe some times this will work for others, maybe it would work again for us but I can't put my self out there like that again. If I knew what I know now, I would have divorced 8 years ago and got on with my life. A big lesson and a hard one. Just my story.

ps I even had came to the conclusion that god had intervined and had made him slip into another car so he could get arested and I could save him and our marrage. He was 2 blocks from home when he was arrested the last time and I thought, if he had turned one street up, he probably wouldn't have been arested and our marrage would still have been crap and he wouldn't have quit drinking and I couldn't have loved him into being a knew man..omg!

miss communicat

I'm a recovered Alcoholic in AA and also a member of Alanon. Maybe I can shed a light on the apparent contradiction you see.

Yes. Alcoholics do need support, love and care in recovery and yes, low self esteem plays a role in the mindset of the self destructive patterns of this disease.

But. The support, love and care that HELPS most is from those who have recovered, not from those who are invested emotionally in the outcome. They are best equipped to guide the fellow through the twists and turns of recovery, because they know the tyerritory well.

Codies are not equipped to be such a support. In fact, they hurt themselves in trying to be everything for their A, and they often hurt the A by cushioning them from the harsh consequences of their actions.

So, it is not Alanon or the codie who is being harsh. It is the A himself, and life they create that is harsh. How will they change this if they do not feel it?

Barbara52

Until the end of my marriage, I was always positive toward xAH, telling him I believed in him, that he could do it (whatever it might have been) that he was a good man. I never cut him down or said hurtful things. And I meant what I said. It had no effect.

I know with my own issues, some of which were self esteem issues, while my own positive affirmations and thoughts eventually had a big impact, those from others did not because my underlying line of thought was something along the lines of "but you don't know the real me." I think self esteem work must come from within to be effective.

The way I look at it is that because I do not know what it is to struggle with an addiciton, I cannot support someone trying to win that struggle. I can cheer them on from the side but I cannot provide what ever support is most helpful because when you get right down to it, I cannot understand the horrible struggle it is to get and remain sober. Only someone who has been there, is there, can understand and provide meaningful support I think.

splendra

I have honestly tried to praise all the A's in my life and have been used and lied to and used like as a sucker for trying to encourage them.

I have been trying to get my H to leave for it seems like forever. He does not want to stop using or he is not ready or has not reach a bottom whatever it is he still is using and I am just tired of being with someone who constantly has to be propped up.

I have tried really hard to understand his low self esteem but he does not care about how I feel when we are out and I am feeling okay and he comes up to someone I am talking to and tells them something really embarrassing or highly personal about me. Once I was talking to someone that I was working on a pretty big business deal with and they totally back off from me after he divulged my personal business to this person. He started talking about our sex life to my mother once and would not shut up even after my mom told him that she did not want to hear it and she was not the only one in the room either.

It seems that the only way he feels good is if someone else feels worse than him.

Yes I do feel that shame is a very integral part of addiction but I think it is the alcoholic/addict that needs to seek a way to deal with it that is loving and helps them learn to cope. I am sorry but I am just not qualified to help him and my understanding of his shame and low self opinion does nothing but keeps me walking on egg shells and crawling over broken glass and razor wire. I need something better for me than this...

shellygirl

I have to tell you 23 years ago when my fiance first went into treatment I thought my daily al anon meetings, my never ending support, and constant self esteem building were all helpful in his successfully being able to stop drinking. We went on to marry, have a family, incredible careers and a happy life. Fast forward 21 years and a relapse. No amount of my telling him how much I love him, what a wonderful man he is, what a wonderful career he has etc has made a difference in the last 3 years. We talked 2 nights ago to finalize our divorce. He tells me the woman he is with he doesn't love, and she is nothing to him. He is depressed and miserable but he cannot stop drinking. I have offered to pay for treatment, drive him, support him through it whether we are divorced or not and he will not stop. He has lost his children and his life. He tells me I was the only person who ever made him believe in himself but I have to tell you that was at the cost of myself. It breaks my heart but I was not put on this earth to build his self esteem, it has to come from inside him. I just didn't have a chance againest that bottle.

miss communicat

amen.

NYC_Chick

I struggled with this too and wondered if I could compliment and support my ex to sobriety. Well, that backfired and I ended up "over-functioning" in the relationship. By that I mean that it got to the point that he didn't have to do anything for himself because I did it all. Where that left me was not getting my needs met by him OR me. I totally neglected myself and my own feelings.

This is a very painful and bad path. Don't you want something better for YOU?

LaTeeDa

This is the most important thing that has been said on this thread.

Those AA members who "helped" that person recover, did not do so because they thought they knew how it would turn out. They did so because they realize everyone who wants to recover can. They made recovery available, and eventually the other person took the hand that was offered. It could just as easily turned out different. In fact, there are probably lots of other alcoholics who get the same kind of support who never recover. Those AA members are not devastated and hearbroken and lost when someone doesn't recover. There is no way to know who will find their way to recovery and who will not. Are you willing to gamble your happiness and well-being on just one?

L

Done_With_It

There is a difference between you getting unconditional praise and love for
'screwing up', and someone giving an alcoholic unconditional love for their
screw ups because or when they drink. It is easy to reinforce what the want alcoholic wants to believe.

I won't praise the alcoholic in my life when their drinking affects my life, it tells them that I am okay with what they are doing, and I am not okay with it. When I was younger a kid, I used to tell them it's okay, it's okay, and they didn't know that it was NOT okay to do what they did, and to drink like they did.

If the pain of drinking is not worse than not drinking, the alcoholic usually never stops. If they do not have any loss, they have no reason to stop. We do what works for us.
That's been my experience anyway. :ghug

laurie6781

Several days ago, maybe a week ago, there was a thread with almost the same question. Here is my answer:

And I haven't changed my mind one bit.

Please for your own sanity, LET IT GO. Go on with your lie. If you two are meant to be, somewhere down the line, if and when he has found recovery you will meet again.

Now is the time TO WORK ON YOU.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

GiveLove

Does he recognize and admit that he has self-esteem issues?

And if so, has he sought professional help for himself ?

Perhaps you can recommend a counselor to him who is experienced in diagnosing and dealing with these issues.

And in the meantime, you can continue to work on yourself - the only person whose life you can control.

laurie6781

OOPS, SORRY. Type that is suppose to say........................"Go on with your LIFE" not lie, lol

Love and hugs,

good_luck

You might want to look at the CRAFT approach, which utilizes positive reinforcement.

anubus

I just wanted to say THANK YOU all SO much for the wonderful answers to my post. Honestly, I posted late last night, and was deathly afraid to check the answers this morning.....I really thought everyone was gonna really jump down my case for even suggesting it.
Everyone's post was EXTEMELY informative...THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! I REALLY mean that!!!!!! Words cannot express how greatful I am for everyone posting their true feelings & experiences.
All of this is SO overwhelming, and the answers you all gave were super good food for thought. I just loved every reply, and have read them over several times trying to find a happy balance for myself.
Honestly, I don't know what I am going to do yet (try it or not). As most of you know, I threw him out a couple of weeks ago, so he's no longer living in my home. I did talk to him the other day....he says he is working a job in a plant for $9 Hr (when he lived here, he refused to take ANY job less than $15 hr, and insisited that he would ONLY work carpenter jobs, his life profession). SO.....he HAS been humbled some!! Thank you God!!! He's renting a sleeping room (has to be quite a downsize from my nice home....that really baffles me, why a HOMELESS guy would screw up an opportunity of a lifetime....if he would have just TRIED, we could have been married, and I would have put him on the deed to this house....I'm so glad I did NOT......but it just confuses me why he didn't appreciate this blessing which obviously God was giving him a chance to start a LIFE again.). Anyway, I asked him if he liked his job, he said no. He said he had no choice but to take it. Whether it was an act or not, he did seem like he learned alot.....I believe he was being honest. We discussed dating once in a while, and him coming by to cut my grass (1 acre hillside, it;s more than I can handle on my own, really). I know he's probably jsut wanting to keep his options with me open..."just in case" his life doesn't work out.....but for right now, I'm comfortable with that.....I think I wan to stay in touch, and see what happens......leaving the outcome in God's hands. :bounce I'm just kinda playing it by ear for now. Letting God call the shots. (Step 3 or so???) I don't want to break off the ties completely with him....I feel he is on the verge of making a choice, just not sure which way he will go. I know he needed this (me throwing him out, forcing changes), but I also know that this job & sleeping room will not change the alcohol problem, and before too long he will be facing problems of his own making. He'll screw up the job, blow his money, wahtever. This is the man who HAD an $800 week UNDER THE TABLE carpenter job, and blew all his money, then just "quit going" with no call to his boss or anything. SO......his alcohol problem will interfer with this job too, I'm sure. "Just a matter of time", as Brook Benton sang.
As for me, I am reading as many books as I can get my hands on, and reading these postings like a mad woman. I am working the 12 step program for myself....I know I need it......I've never fully healed from my XH who was an Adult Child (sober alchy). Thanking God that with my current job, I can read & think alot........what a total blessing!! For whatever reason, God is directing me to do so. I absolutely LOVE the AA meetings .....only went to 1 so far, but I just feel warm fuzzies inside, like I finally found HOME....
This is such a crazy illness, nobody else in my life really understands it (including HIS mom, who I am very close to.....she keeps telling me "But you gotta tell him THIS & THAT"......she just doesn't get it). In the meeting yesterday, with the man speaking "his story".......I cried some, but knew I had finally found people who UNDERSTOOD.......they LIVED the drama......and they RECOVERED......some easier than others. I saw a veryyoung man, early 20's maybe, who admitted he was an addict.........gosh he looked so much like my own son, who is a 2nd generation adult child (doesn't drink, but inherited the behavior from his adult child dad....ugh). I just know that I found HOME. For ME, whatever happens with my ABF is up to God & him.
And the meeting gave me hope that there IS a chance.....those people all di it, so can my AXBF.........I actually visualized him at the platform, speaking "his story"......(If anyone saw The Secret, you'll understand why I feel it's so important to visualize like that).

Again, whatever the outcome........I am deaply indebted to this board and all the wonderful people who took time out of their busy scedules to help a person they never even met. Please continue your :praying for my help, and if there is a chance for recovery for him, that he sees it.

Love you guys!!