Lilyflower

hi there, i wantedd to put this on its own thread so as to not hijack Strongerwoman's.

I am sorry that things seem to be at ends with you and your husband right now. From your posts I think you have been staying with your AH because he is functioning and only binge drinks as opposed to all day every day type drinking? I think that is correct.

When I came to SR, I originally came here to find insight into my abf of the time. I wanted to learn about his condition, understand him better, perhaps find people here who were recovering so I could point these out to my abf and hopefuly get him to realise that it could all stop. That he could quit like others had. I never got through to him, I never managed to show him the light. He still drank and I just felt tired, bashed and emotionally drained.

As time went on, I realised it was more about healing me, but I would still tell him about the things I had read here, hoping to open his eyes to what I was suffering. Sharing people's troubles with their own A, that he might see the similarities between us and them. Again hoping that he would find the drive to quit. My method of approach had changed into a more coaxing/emotional manipulation, but my goal was the same - get him to stop drinking. It still never worked. He could never see the similarities, he still never realised his abusive nature. Sure he felt for the troubles of others, but more with the mind set of - what have others got to do with our relationship? I still felt tired, beaten, drained, stressed etc etc.

Then it finally hit me, he was not going to stop no matter how much I tried to hammer it into his head, no matter how much I tried to get him to see my perspective, or anyone else's. He would not stop for me or my daughter, he would not stop for his own two children. He would not stop unless he wanted to.

All I had done over the previous 6 months was attempt to control and manipulate a person into doing what I wanted them to do to make me happier. I was not living with my reality. I was trying my best to alter my reality and make it the way I wanted it to be, to make it fit my dreams and hopes. I had to admit to myself that I was using emotional abuse, manipulation and sometimes verbal abuse toward another human just to get what I wanted.

I had to finally wake up to life the way it actually was, and ask, can I live this way if nothing changes? (Because it wasn't going to for the unforseeable future). Did i want my daughter to live this way? Was i finished wasting my energy on a situation I couldn't control?

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

respektingme

I have experiences that prevent me from jumping ship just yet. My parents got divorced when I was 12. The events that transpired from 12 to 17 made me grow up so fast that all I knew was that I was going to get out on my own as fast as I could and I left at 17. It took me 20 years to finish my bachelor's degree taking a class here and a class there.

When two people divorce, you have very little control anymore over how the other person is parenting your children. There are many scenarios that play out after a divorce, which as so common. The man remarries, the new wife has these visions of meeting his adoring children and when they don't warm up to her instantly, and she sees the division they can cause between her and her husband, all hell can break out. I've lived it as a stepchild and as a stepmother. I have extensive exposure to stepmothers and stepchildren, who have worked hard to deal with their issues which have revolved around these two titles. Add an alcoholic father to the mix, and it's just too much crap to dump into my children's lap. Until I feel that being the product of a divorce, moving, changing schools, living through the pain of not having their dad in their lives, or seeing him drunk and being alone with him, or having to deal with another significant woman in his life who views them as a threat, I'm just not going to do it.

No, this situation is not ideal. But as my counselor has said, i will know when I can't handle it anymore. My childhood ended at 12. My kids adore their father. I just can't do that to them right now. And while I have to live my own life and disengage from my AH's moronic decision to keep drinking, I will discuss it with him from time to time to remind him of what a horrible choice it is. May never change a thing. Probably won't change a thing.

And when the day comes that I have to pull the plug, I'll know that leaving will be better than staying, and I have no doubt that my kids will adjust and we'll do the best we can. I'm just not there yet. But I will be.

LaTeeDa

I didn't see divorce, blending families, changing schools or any of that in Lily's post.

I saw an honest recount of how she went from trying to manipulate her bf, to learning to make the best of her life despite him.

L

Lilyflower

I didn't mention anywhere in my post that you should leave, I would never profess to be the expert and tell anyone they should go, well perhaps if there was physical abuse... Why do you assume that I mean you should leave, perhaps you read this into my post because this is present in your mind.

You illustrate the point of my original post perfectly here. This is what I wanted to highlight - you do not have CONTROL over anyone or anything other than YOURSELF. You may think you can control your husbands actions while he is with you, but you CANNOT. All that results from attempting to control is resentment and isolation from the person on the receiving end.

Again, all things you cannot control.

I don't feel that I was in anyway questioning your authority or experience, so please don't feel you have to defend your choice to stay.

You cannot protect your children from the woes of the world. This again is another attempt to control their world for them. If you are staying with your AH because of your kids, have you also considered the heartbreak and daily chaos they are subjected to now? I'm sure many of the ACoA's here could give you insight into how your children are feeling throughout this? Sometimes, it is better for children to have divorced parents rather than living in a dysfunctional household where they are learning how to self destruct. Perhaps your fear of divorce stems from the memories and pain you have been left with from your parents separation? That memory doesn't have to cloud your children's lives. You can parent differently from your parents. You have the ability to be there emotionally for your children, to support them, which my instincts are telling me, did not happen for you?

Then why do it?

In the mean time, please accept the advice from others to detangle yourself from this mess that is causing you so much pain, that perhaps detaching and stopping controlling would help you? That was all my post was intended to do.

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

i4getsm

Is it wrong to tell your A the truth about their addiction and how it is impacting you and your family? I read Respektingme's post to be her "truth". Sure it can read like manipulation but if I'm not expecting anything to come of it, then is that wrong? I know it seems like a waste of breath to discuss it with the A, but if I'm not ready to leave for various reasons, why not state my feelings about it?

I'm really curious about this because detaching doesn't have to mean stop being with that person. So do you mean never discussing alcoholism again with them?

FormerDoormat

No, not wrong, just pointless.

Barbara52

No its not wrong to tell your A how their behavior and choice affect you. But expecting that telling to make a difference can be counter-productive for us, especially if it is done with the expectation of controlling the A in some way.

How many times is appropriate to tell another adult that they are negatively affecting your life? More than once may cross over into nagging and attempts to control, neither of which is effective or within what I understand as detachment.

Lilyflower

It is never 'wrong' to share your feelings with someone. For me, if someone's behaviour is bothering me, I tell them. Thats fine. But I know before hand that it is the other person's choice to change or not. If I want the situation to change, and hope it will by telling someone how I am feeling about it, I must understand that things will not necessarily become the way I wish.

Telling someone repetitively that I feel badly about their behaviour tells me that they aren't willing to change their behaviour because I have mentioned it again and again without effect, and that I am still deceiving myself into thinking I can change their mind. Part of my recovery has been learning that I am powerless over anyone but myself.

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

LaTeeDa

I've posted about acceptance before. True, complete acceptance is a life-changing thing. Those who have experienced it know exactly what I'm talking about. Those who haven't gotten there yet have no idea what I mean by it.

It took me a long time. I'm pretty stubborn, lol. I gave lip service to acceptance for at least a couple of years. Yeah, yeah, I know nothing I can say or do will change him. But all the while I was "deceiving myself" as Lilyflower said. Subconsciously thinking that I could "win" this battle. All the while controlling, judging, shaming (or humbling, as you put it in another post) him. All the while being the righteous victim, martyr, the one who was so right, why couldn't he just see that?

Acceptance isn't about staying or leaving, it's about finally realizing that others are free to make their own choices, and I am free to make mine. It's not about approving or condoning another's behavior. It's about learning that life is what it is, and hating what it is does not change the facts. It's about living the life I am in right now, today, to the best of my ability, not putting life on hold waiting for some future event or circumstance to finally "make me happy."

L

GiveLove

Growing up in a household where alcoholism was tolerated -- where parents "stayed together for the sake of the children" -- made me an incredibly screwed up person who ALSO chose to stay with alcoholics in my adult years. I modeled my behavior after my mom, my model for how women should act, what they should tolerate, and what they should fear.

Bernadette

Hey Lily--

All I had done over the previous 6 months was attempt to control and manipulate a person into doing what I wanted them to do to make me happier. I was not living with my reality. I was trying my best to alter my reality and make it the way I wanted it to be, to make it fit my dreams and hopes. I had to admit to myself that I was using emotional abuse, manipulation and sometimes verbal abuse toward another human just to get what I wanted.

I had to finally wake up to life the way it actually was, and ask, can I live this way if nothing changes? (Because it wasn't going to for the unforseeable future). Did i want my daughter to live this way? Was i finished wasting my energy on a situation I couldn't control?

Wow. Thank You for this!! It amazes me how we can go along for eons in our denial and then with a little effort & attention and by nudging ourselves along we can jump right into REALITY!! And it is so healthy....I admire your courage and insight Lilyflower. I hope I can be this clear sighted as I make my way through life with all its challenges and chances for exerting "control" over others... it is like a constant battle with the demon denial!!

Peace--
B.

Pajarito

Unfortunately I did as well- not in an alcoholic home, but a very dysfunctional/abusive home. I learned exactly what my mom taught me without even realizing she was- to be the long-suffering wife, to put up with the unacceptable over and over- and to put herself last. I used to think I needed to stay in our marriage for our dd. When it became clear that my STBXAH could not be who I wanted him to be, I made the decision to divorce him. Believe me- it's not been easy. NEVER- even when it was really bad with him- did I think I'd be doing this. And I am sad- more sad than I could have imagined at times, but the healthy part of me who says "hell no!!!" to what I was living with, has just enough strength in her to keep on trucking. My goal is to continue to work with that part of me. I'm still working on complete acceptance. The bottom line is always the 3 c's- cannot control, cure and surely did not cause it. I can only control myself.

prodigal

In my case, yes. He got defensive when I discussed "it." The blame game and finger-pointing started. And I finally realized I was frustrating myself and wasting my time.

I also realized if he really wanted discuss his alcoholism, he'd most likely do it in a room full of other A's who really understand what is going on in his head and where he is coming from. In other words, an A.A. meeting.

Cynay

Good Evening,

I have been away for a little while... though I peek in now and again... but this thread caught my attention.

I am the Adult Child of a Raging Alcoholic. My daughter will turn 19 soon and Im sad to say that now she too is the Adult Child of a Raging Alcoholic who just had the opportunity in the last week to be severly abused by her Father, thank God it was mostly emotionally.... but guess what ... she was holding her 6 week old baby daughter in her arms when it was happening. Seems our disease is handed down from parent to child too.

I have been in and out of theraphy since I was about 10 years old.... I have spent the majority of my life in councel, Al-anon, ACoA, CoDa and I wish I knew then what I know today.... because regardless of the stories I could tell you about my life and struggles to become healthy.... none of that hurts more then watching my daughter live it.... I pray I will never have to watch my granddaughter live it.

I have to say that my daughter is much better then I was, and I pray that she finds her own recovery so that her daughter might be free from allowing others to abuse her. From where I stand today.... well, lets just say that I feel like I have alot of forgiveness to ask for ... and Im very thankful I got out of that marriage when she was 2 years old.

Lilyflower

I remember speaking to my abf, I asked him how he was, and he dutifully began to tell me how much he had drank that day... I stopped him mid sentence and said ''It is none of my business how much you drink or if you drink at all''.

It felt incredibly freeing, but very strange at the same time. It was that one sentence that made me realise that I had done it, I had managed to let go of all the chaos, I had given back to him what was his problem to solve, or not, as he saw fit. Then I was left with what I could deal with:- myself, and I began to realise just how much attention and tender loving care I needed to give me. I had been caught up in giving all my attention, hopes, dreams, fears, praise... all my energy to everyone else for so long, I had completely neglected my self; and I was in pieces.

I chose to begin the task of putting me back together again. Like Humpty Dumpty, no one could put me back together again - just me!!

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Pajarito

Wonderful! I think we all come about this in different ways. For me- something happened this morning that led to an "aha" moment. For days I had been really down- hurt, sad, wondering why he didn't respect me or honor me as well as our marriage. I have no idea what happened this morning, but the realization that I was giving HIM power over ME popped into my brain and then it all snow-balled.

10 years ago my AH had an emotional affair that lasted over a year. In that time I voiced my concern, my fear, my anger, my feelings- and each and every time I did he rolled his eyes, told me I was imagining things, was impatient, angry. Basically he did what he has continued to do from that time- discounted me and my needs. That little voice inside me- my gut- KNEW I was right, but I was scared. I didn't want to believe he was being unfaithful. We had a 1-yr-old. I didn't want to be a single mom. Long story/short- I found emails that proved I was right, I confronted him with them and he had to fess up. It was ugly- but I never really made him accountable in a healthy way. I never honored and respected myself- why would he???

Now I am on a path of honoring and respecting myself. I spent too much time and energy trying to make him do that when all along I find I wasn't doing it myself. I knew he was lying, deceiving me, hiding things, behaving horribly- and I tried to work with him. I didn't have whatever it would have taken to say ENOUGH! Well, now I do. And it comes in bits and pieces sometimes, but thank God it comes.

Lilyflower

You go girl!



Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

LaTeeDa

Mine did the same thing. Told me I was unreasonable, overreacting, etc. When I look back, I realize that the pattern started long ago when I was a child. My parents (alcoholic and codependent) did the same thing. Discounted my feelings, told me not to "act that way," "you don't mean that," etc.

It seems every day I make a new connection between my adult behaviors and my childhood "conditioning." My grandfather was an alcoholic, my grandmother was a codependent, both their daughters (my mother and my aunt) married alcoholics. My mother taught me how to be a codependent because her mother taught her. I didn't know any other way to be. I'm hoping to break the cycle with my daughter. I hope I didn't wait too long.

L

Lilyflower

My daughter has had 10 years of me being an up and down roller coaster of emotions and a crazy codependant, yet now she will have ----- years of me being a functioning healthy adult who takes responsibilities and can create healthier relationships!

Better late than never!!

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Pajarito

Absolutely! Mine is also 10 Lily- and I also hope to break the cycle. I try to show her every day what healthy is. I listen to her, validate her feelings and show her how important she is.

Interesting LTD- I hadn't really put my childhood experience together with my experience with AH in relating my story above. My childhood was also very difficult, and my father never really showed us or my mom any respect. My mother used to get laughed at at the dinner table if she so much as tried to voice her opinion about anything. And we never disagreed with my father. He was the rule maker. No wonder I had a hard time standing up to AH. It was taught to me growing up by my father's iron fist and my mother's inability to stand up for herself or us.

What you say about your daughter applies to us as well Lily (and yours/you too LTD)- better late than never! Here I am at the age of 45 learning what I wish I had as a child.