Kindeyes

Lexusgirl's post made me think about a topic that so many of us have dealt with or are dealing with. Divorce. Parental alienation. Raising a child or children when the other parent is addicted.

I often wonder if I dealt with my son and my XAH in the correct manner. As a young parent, I didn't have the internet and access to the wealth of information (and misinformation) that the internet provides.

I was very frightened of what my XAH would "teach" my son. He didn't pay child support and I was worried that getting away with taking no financial responsibility would teach my son that he didn't need to be responsible. I was afraid that he would be drunk or high when my son was with him. I was worried but felt that I didn't want to alienate my son from his biological father. I would allow visitation but also did many things that fall into the category of "parental alienation". I didn't do it purposefully or knowingly.

I am now watching my A son's XGF (the mother of his son) handle this situation so much better than I did. She facilitates interaction between son and father. She's amazing and I am so very proud of her.

I can't change the past or the mistakes I may have made while raising my son but I'm hoping that the website below will help others who are dealing with divorce manage those issues better than I did.

Parental Alienation and Hostile Aggressive Parenting Awareness Organization - Emotional and mental child abuse

gentle hugs

lexusgirl

I'm sorry you had to deal with this. It's really heartbreaking for the children involved.

I've networked with many women's groups regarding PAS and have learned so much.

LucyA

Thats a really interesting site Kindeyes, thank you.
Even though I'm not Joe's mother I suppose I'm 'acting' in her place and my brother (Joe's dad) is doing a lot of the things mentioned there.
I'll read more of it later, I think it'll be useful to me.

Kindeyes

Lucy
I found this site when my A son and his XGF were separated and having problems. They are still separated but I think the site helped make them both understand that their son comes first and his wellfare is THE most important thing.

I'm glad that you found it interesting and useful. Awareness of this issue is the key. I certainly could have used this information when I divorced my son's father.

gentle hugs

sojourner

kindeyes:

don't be too hard on yourself. i had the same situation with ex-husband and taking no responsibility for his role. nothing but drama, drama, drama. It takes two to make a relationship work - even the relationship between ex-spouses. In fact, Dr. Laura advises the custodial parent of immoral ex-spouses to not allow a relationship with the immoral person because they will undermine the authority of the custodial parent. I certainly found that to be true in my case.

In my situation, i suspected ex-husband of undermining me to our three sons. So, legal or not, i taped a phone conversation between him and my son (age 12). Ex-husband was calling me horrible disgusting names and just blaspheming me all over the place because he was mad at me about something - i think that I refused to pay for his long-distance calls to talk to our sons because he also was not paying child support and was not paying the medical bills that he had agreed to pay for. I'm human, i have my limits, and I was not going to submit to that kind of financial "bullying." I simply requested that when one of our sons called him that he say something like, "Hey, this is costing your mom money. Let's hang up and i'll call you right back."

Web sites like that are helpful, but in dealing with an untreated addict, we were dealing with mountains of responsibility that we had to take on because the addict would (or could) not as well as the drama that the addict needed - especially in the age-old blame-placing mechanism that the addiction demands from the addict. We were not dealing with "normal" people - we were dealing with chemically insane people who could not hold up their end of the bargain.

Lilyflower

It would be a blessing if the courts see it this way too Sojourner, then Lexus and others like her would not be suffering

Lily xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

hadenoughnow

I agree with Sojourner, I allow my son to see and talk his A father with no restrictions (within reason). I could by definintion be considered guilty of alienation because I do not answer his drunken phone calls after 9 pm and have discussions with my son about his father ism. My son is 14, simply ignoring his father's lack of responsibility and misconduct in the name of trying to salvage their relationship does not serve anyone or set a good example.

Pajarito

Thank you for this information Kindeyes. I am currently dealing with/worrying about this issue. I am feeling damned if I do/damned if I don't. I definitely want our dd to have a good relationship with her father, but I worry he is not engaged with her the way (I) think he should be. For instance- I posted not long ago about his lack of initiating contact with her. He can go for days without calling her. She's 10, and maybe doesn't realize this yet- or doesn't mind??? I, however, get upset inside about it, and wasn't sure I wanted to call her attention to it- make a mt. out of a molehill. All of this is so new to me- to the 3 of us. I want to do the right things, but it's not always black and white. So- thanks for the links and getting the conversation started.

Kindeyes

This is a very tough issue. When you throw alcoholism/addiction into the mix, it complicates it even further. I think that awareness is important. I have no doubt that had I been aware of the issue of parental alienation and the effects on my son, I would have done some things differently.

I admire my son's XGF because she seems to have found a way to manage her relationship with me (the grandmother/mother of her ex), her sweet son, and her XABF (my son). She gets together with my son with their son and have family time. They go to the zoo or to a little festival or just walk in the park together. She allows my sweet grandson to spend 2 - 4 Saturdays a month with me and encourages my son to spend time with him here. They all came over to our house for the last two Saturdays and swam in our pool and played as a family unit.

She is very clear about her boundaries. If my son relapses and gets weird, she will only allow supervised visits or no contact at all. I support her in these decisions. As a result of her very healthy perspective, my son is directly responsible for the amount of interaction he gets with his son. When my son relapsed a couple of months ago, he got very weird.....he was unstable. She and I discussed it and both agreed that it was not healthy for the little guy to spend time with his father when he was unstable. Shortly after that my son put himself back into intensive outpatient treatment.

Things have been going extremely well since then and he is finding that he can spend lots of time with his little boy. It just makes sense.

All of this would have been very difficult for me when my son was little. I could barely stand to be in the same vicinity of my XAH. But that was MY problem that I needed to deal with for the sake of my son......I just wasn't aware of how subtle (and not so subtle) actions on my part were harmful.

It's all about self awareness........and I'm getting better at it. Better late than never.

Rowan

I am the alienated parent.

My exhusb and I have two daughters who are 15 and 12. We shared custody since we separated 11 years ago, until my eldest stayed on full-time with her dad 3 years ago. I haven't seen her since that time, despite living in the same town.

I am not an immoral person. I have been in recovery for 7 years, despite having two relapses within that time. Both incidents were single events. I was hard on my eldest girl and always had a difficult time connecting with her on the same level that I enjoy with my youngest. Their father and his wife encourage my eldest to stay with them, and have contributed to the situation, although I am certainly not blameless.

My eldest also no longer sees her many cousins, grandparents, aunts or uncles on my side, which suggests it has more to do than with me. Recently, though, she asked her sister for her grandparents' telephone number. Maybe she is reaching out, which is good, although I am feeling a bit defensive since I haven't heard anything from my mother - who surely has heard from my daughter by now.

I give my daughter presents at Christmas and on her birthday, and include a card and note. I have written and apologized to her, and am trying to wait patiently for her to come back to me. Sometimes I get really mad! I haven't talked to her in many months.

The best I can do by this little girl (and her sister) is to stay clean and sober, and to keep working hard at my recovery.

Thanks to the OP for the link - I plan to do some reading.

lexusgirl

There were other reasons besides just the "ism." I believe my XA was also physically and mentally abusing our son. Actually have a lot of proof but the courts dismissed it. It's crazy to think that some family courts are not for "the best interest of the child."

Here is another link to PAS. This website is great and I love that they give the children a voice as most people involved ie-Judges, GAL, CASA, therapists sometimes will not listen. It's corrupt and this all went on before my eyes and I couldn't believe it...

Courageous Kids Network - "PAS"

Kindeyes

Rowan
I am so sorry to hear about your issues with your oldest daughter. The relationship between mother and daughter should be special. She's a teenager though and is in a timeframe when we tend to get a little rebellious. Keep doing the things you are doing and be available for her. Perhaps as she gets more mature she will understand life better and try to nurture a relationship with you again.

Lex
Thanks for another link on this issue. It's so strange. Men think that the courts favor women in these situations. Women thing that the courts favor men. All in all they should favor THE CHILD. Again, I hope that everything goes well with your son. Keep me posted. I do care.

hugs to you both

mamaplus2kids

Lexusgirl, thank you for your links. They are so helpful. I am going through a divorce and now I realize that my soon-to-be XAH is trying to gather evidence of alienation to take the children away from me. The courts have protected the children and granted him supervised visitation only... until he can prove that he is trying to get his life together. He also has the right to call the children once a week. The problem is that the children sometimes don't feel like talking to him, and I find myself pleading and cajoling them into talking to their dad even for a few minutes. If I don't prompt them throughout the entire conversation, they start to jump around, rough house and act like savages.

The problem is that our daughter (now 8) gave evidence to child abuse experts that her dad tongue kissed her when she was (3-6). This combined with the alcoholism caused the courts to protect the kids.

I don't know if I'm doing the right thing to cajole and plead each week. I am so afraid that he will prove alienation; that this fear is causing me to be overly cautious. Sometimes I am so accommodating and other times when I can't deal with his calls. There have been times when he has called on the wrong day, and we were not expecting the call, that I did not accept the call.

It's just so hard... I also know that he was "alienating" our daughter against me when the family was still "intact". He used to undermine my authority by degrading me, making fun of me. He was the fun dad with no limits... I was the hysterical, depressed mother who couldn't do anything.

Kindeyes

Mama+
I understand the emotional turmoil you are in right now. It's so very confusing when you're right in the middle of it.

The one thing that I wish I could have done better is to stay calm and not let my ex drag me into the emotional crap. He would call me at work and do and say things specifically to get me upset......and I let him do it.

I wish I had the tools and websites to reference when I was going through all of that. I wish you the best as you try to balance everything.

gentle hugs