Is the drunk the real 'them'?
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by SugarLily 
I still would love for the Idea of him to become a reality. .
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7
I have two thoughts:
1) The alcohol is affecting his thoughts and emotions, so even if he's being honest about what he's thinking and feeling right then, they very well might not be the same things he would be thinking and feeling if he were sober.
2) Even if they are the same things he would think and feel when sober, it doesn't mean it's the "real" him. We all think mean things or have irrational emotions now and then. But part of being an adult human and living in a society in relationships with other adults is knowing how to filter those and make sure that the only ones that get communicated are the ones that really matter. I might think my husband is being annoying momentarily, but if I said so every single time that wouldn't be a healthy relationship. I'm only going to bring it up if it's something that is really impacting me or our relationship, and I'll bring it up in a way that will be productive and help him and us grow. I would be a different person if I were to yell at him every time he did something small to annoy me! The "real me" knows how to behave like an adult and nurture my relationships like an adult.
Does that make sense?
I know how you feel. I worry a lot about whether I will ever get my "real mother" back. When I think about living the rest of my life with this shell of her, the only word for what I feel is despair. I can't imagine my children growing up thinking that THIS woman is their grandmother instead of the one I know. I don't know what to do about that.
1) The alcohol is affecting his thoughts and emotions, so even if he's being honest about what he's thinking and feeling right then, they very well might not be the same things he would be thinking and feeling if he were sober.
2) Even if they are the same things he would think and feel when sober, it doesn't mean it's the "real" him. We all think mean things or have irrational emotions now and then. But part of being an adult human and living in a society in relationships with other adults is knowing how to filter those and make sure that the only ones that get communicated are the ones that really matter. I might think my husband is being annoying momentarily, but if I said so every single time that wouldn't be a healthy relationship. I'm only going to bring it up if it's something that is really impacting me or our relationship, and I'll bring it up in a way that will be productive and help him and us grow. I would be a different person if I were to yell at him every time he did something small to annoy me! The "real me" knows how to behave like an adult and nurture my relationships like an adult.
Does that make sense?
I know how you feel. I worry a lot about whether I will ever get my "real mother" back. When I think about living the rest of my life with this shell of her, the only word for what I feel is despair. I can't imagine my children growing up thinking that THIS woman is their grandmother instead of the one I know. I don't know what to do about that.
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 685
Taken from, "Why does he do that: Inside the minds of angry and controlling men, by Lundy Bancroft.
"Not all substance abusers are abusive partners"
"Not all abusive partners are substance abusers"
"Partner abuse doesn't go away when the addict recovers"
"Alcohol does not change a persons fundamental value system"
"Abusers make conscious choices even while intoxicated"
Key points to remember:
"Alcohol or drugs cannot make an abuser out of a man who is not abusive"
"Even while intoxicated, abusers continue to make choices about their actions based on their habits, attitudes, and self-interest"
"The primary role that addiction plays in partner abuse is an excuse"
"Abusiveness and addiction are two distinct problems requiring separate solutions"
----
I'm not sure if you can relate to any of this, but thought it may help.
**Lundy Bancroft has spent the last 17 years specializing in domestic abuse and behavior of abusive men.
"Not all substance abusers are abusive partners"
"Not all abusive partners are substance abusers"
"Partner abuse doesn't go away when the addict recovers"
"Alcohol does not change a persons fundamental value system"
"Abusers make conscious choices even while intoxicated"
Key points to remember:
"Alcohol or drugs cannot make an abuser out of a man who is not abusive"
"Even while intoxicated, abusers continue to make choices about their actions based on their habits, attitudes, and self-interest"
"The primary role that addiction plays in partner abuse is an excuse"
"Abusiveness and addiction are two distinct problems requiring separate solutions"
----
I'm not sure if you can relate to any of this, but thought it may help.
**Lundy Bancroft has spent the last 17 years specializing in domestic abuse and behavior of abusive men.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Hope you don't mind me posting again, interesting topic...
For me alcohol allowed me to be the person that i was anyway...i was afraid of showing that side during the day because there were consequences, GF leave, get fired, friends leave etc...it was ok drunk cos it was the alcohol and not really me....
So i existed on learned behaviour during the day and putting into effect the mechanics of what i had learned from various sources, with GF it was stuff off TV, books, parents...pretty much whatever would make me look cool to the other person...it was never what i wanted to do or feel it was all an act...then like i said when drunk the real feelings would come out including the resentments of not being allowed to be myself by that person...its very demanding acting all the time especially when being exposed to someone almost 24/7 like a live in GF...
Obviously the GF would always say i just want you to be yourself, i dont care where we go, what we do, what job you have etc...but that was no use because i didnt have a clue what i wanted or who i was and it took recovery and help to be able to understand all that...
But i dont think this is just unique to alcoholics, a lot of people stay together for conveninece and dont really know the other person...you know the sort i mean where the lady doesnt like the guy drinking and its a standing joke in the household that Mum doesnt like Dad drinking, although he only does it at xmas but when he does it ends in tears...there is a big break between incidents whereas you wont have that with the alcoholic, you will hear what he/she really thinks almost every night so that won't work for long...hopefully!
I just want to re-emphasise that the active alcoholic (drunk or dry) hasn't got a clue who he/she really is, not in a wishy washy way but literally doesn not know at all...therefore it is impossible for a partner to know them...
Most alcoholics missed the formative years and the only way to get another shot at those years is to get professional help or a program like AA otherwise it is living a lie until the end and you don't want to be near that, which incedentally my father is doing very well at...that said as he has got older he has naturally mellowed, i still wouldn't trust him to buy me a loaf of bread though lol
For me alcohol allowed me to be the person that i was anyway...i was afraid of showing that side during the day because there were consequences, GF leave, get fired, friends leave etc...it was ok drunk cos it was the alcohol and not really me....
So i existed on learned behaviour during the day and putting into effect the mechanics of what i had learned from various sources, with GF it was stuff off TV, books, parents...pretty much whatever would make me look cool to the other person...it was never what i wanted to do or feel it was all an act...then like i said when drunk the real feelings would come out including the resentments of not being allowed to be myself by that person...its very demanding acting all the time especially when being exposed to someone almost 24/7 like a live in GF...
Obviously the GF would always say i just want you to be yourself, i dont care where we go, what we do, what job you have etc...but that was no use because i didnt have a clue what i wanted or who i was and it took recovery and help to be able to understand all that...
But i dont think this is just unique to alcoholics, a lot of people stay together for conveninece and dont really know the other person...you know the sort i mean where the lady doesnt like the guy drinking and its a standing joke in the household that Mum doesnt like Dad drinking, although he only does it at xmas but when he does it ends in tears...there is a big break between incidents whereas you wont have that with the alcoholic, you will hear what he/she really thinks almost every night so that won't work for long...hopefully!
I just want to re-emphasise that the active alcoholic (drunk or dry) hasn't got a clue who he/she really is, not in a wishy washy way but literally doesn not know at all...therefore it is impossible for a partner to know them...
Most alcoholics missed the formative years and the only way to get another shot at those years is to get professional help or a program like AA otherwise it is living a lie until the end and you don't want to be near that, which incedentally my father is doing very well at...that said as he has got older he has naturally mellowed, i still wouldn't trust him to buy me a loaf of bread though lol
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere, our planet
Posts: 174
Oh gosh, I don't know....I struggle with this all the time with my AS, but my therapist put it to me in a helpful way the other day--she is an "alcoholic personality"--she lies, she drinks, she relapses, she plays the victim role, she blames everyone but herself, she is emotionally abusive. AND--she is not in recovery, so what you see is what you get. So to me, she and the alcoholic are one and the same.
I Love Who I Am
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,210
It's all him/her/the A. The drunk, the sober, the hungover, the temper tantrums and kindess. We are complex beings, even those of us without addictions.
Me personally, I can be both the PTSD poster child of the year, or super mommy. It sucks to have such a range, but does give me compassion for others with mental illness or addicitons or issues or whatever.
What you feed, grows. I'm working on making conscious choices. Feeding the parts of me that are kind, accepting, humble, strong and compassionate. Today that is. Some days I feed the monster. When that happens, I've just got to work as hard as I can to get over it, forgive myself and keep growing.
This thread has helped me realize where I am today in my recovery. Thank you.
Me personally, I can be both the PTSD poster child of the year, or super mommy. It sucks to have such a range, but does give me compassion for others with mental illness or addicitons or issues or whatever.
What you feed, grows. I'm working on making conscious choices. Feeding the parts of me that are kind, accepting, humble, strong and compassionate. Today that is. Some days I feed the monster. When that happens, I've just got to work as hard as I can to get over it, forgive myself and keep growing.
This thread has helped me realize where I am today in my recovery. Thank you.
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the streets have no name
Posts: 1,078
I have known alcoholics that were mellow while drinking, although they tell me they lived alone.
If you are not alcoholic and got drunk 5 times and was mellow, it is/can be a different world compared with an "alcoholic" that gets drunk.
My now AW was a lovely kind, caring sweet person pre-alcoholism. As drinking progressed she changed so much. I never saw her angry while drunk because her drinking was with a secret circle of people that I was not part of. I heard from reliable sources that she did indeed get into bar fights. The only times I saw her drunk was when she finally rolled in through the door, about to collapse, no fighting energy left.
Post drinking days she was very nasty. I guess due to hangovers.
Some people in recovery I know were A holes before alcohol, and still are. Many although in recovery, are very nice people that uniformly tell me alcohol made them A holes.
If you are not alcoholic and got drunk 5 times and was mellow, it is/can be a different world compared with an "alcoholic" that gets drunk.
My now AW was a lovely kind, caring sweet person pre-alcoholism. As drinking progressed she changed so much. I never saw her angry while drunk because her drinking was with a secret circle of people that I was not part of. I heard from reliable sources that she did indeed get into bar fights. The only times I saw her drunk was when she finally rolled in through the door, about to collapse, no fighting energy left.
Post drinking days she was very nasty. I guess due to hangovers.
Some people in recovery I know were A holes before alcohol, and still are. Many although in recovery, are very nice people that uniformly tell me alcohol made them A holes.
Originally Posted by Bucyn
I am 48 years old, I've been drunk/tipsy 5 times in my life. Each time I was mellower, sweeter, more confiding, and trusting. And sleepier.
My opinion: both are the real him. If he wasn't drinking, all that nastiness would come out thru another channel. Alcohol does not create anger and hatefulness.
People change, evolve, endlesslessly. As drinkers face more frustration, disappointment and anger in their lives, they get meaner and nastier, eventually they AREN'T the person they were years ago when you married him. They also become less capable of dealing with reality and this angers and frustrates them further. As the good things in life slip away: marriages, friends, jobs, homes...they lash out more, tantrum more, regress into helpless childish behaviors trying to bully life--and you--into giving them what they can't provide for themselves any more.
There is no 'real' you/me/him; there's only the you/me/him of this moment. And if most of those moments are unpleasant, that makes the real him mostly unpleasant.
And if he ever sobers up and stays sober, he won't be the person he was when you first met him. Even if he's a great guy again. He'll be a different great guy; and the relationship still might not be tenable.
My opinion: both are the real him. If he wasn't drinking, all that nastiness would come out thru another channel. Alcohol does not create anger and hatefulness.
People change, evolve, endlesslessly. As drinkers face more frustration, disappointment and anger in their lives, they get meaner and nastier, eventually they AREN'T the person they were years ago when you married him. They also become less capable of dealing with reality and this angers and frustrates them further. As the good things in life slip away: marriages, friends, jobs, homes...they lash out more, tantrum more, regress into helpless childish behaviors trying to bully life--and you--into giving them what they can't provide for themselves any more.
There is no 'real' you/me/him; there's only the you/me/him of this moment. And if most of those moments are unpleasant, that makes the real him mostly unpleasant.
And if he ever sobers up and stays sober, he won't be the person he was when you first met him. Even if he's a great guy again. He'll be a different great guy; and the relationship still might not be tenable.
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
This is a good topic, thanks for starting the thread...
I can borrow some of the philosophy of AA to offer my opinion here. A great AA speaker said that the alcohol didn't change him, it made it easier for him to express what was already there.
I tend to agree with that. I now realize in recovery that I have certain character defects and that alcohol made me feel comfortable in expressing them. I wouldn't express them when sober, but they were still there.
I was angry at the world and thought of myself as a victim: all my problems were someone else's fault. I realize now that have always thought like that. Drinking just made me feel comfortable expressing that.
Using a recovery program has shown me that I played a central role in creating the problems in my life, although when I was an active drinker, you never could have convinced me of that!
Now, in recovery, I still feel angry sometimes. but, now I can step back and analyze my feelings, ask myself if my anger is valid and justified. It is such a blessing and a relief to be able to turn away from the anger and choose compromises, or patience, or tolerance now. I had no idea I could do that. Sounds crazy, but my self-awareness was soooooo limited.
I can borrow some of the philosophy of AA to offer my opinion here. A great AA speaker said that the alcohol didn't change him, it made it easier for him to express what was already there.
I tend to agree with that. I now realize in recovery that I have certain character defects and that alcohol made me feel comfortable in expressing them. I wouldn't express them when sober, but they were still there.
I was angry at the world and thought of myself as a victim: all my problems were someone else's fault. I realize now that have always thought like that. Drinking just made me feel comfortable expressing that.
Using a recovery program has shown me that I played a central role in creating the problems in my life, although when I was an active drinker, you never could have convinced me of that!
Now, in recovery, I still feel angry sometimes. but, now I can step back and analyze my feelings, ask myself if my anger is valid and justified. It is such a blessing and a relief to be able to turn away from the anger and choose compromises, or patience, or tolerance now. I had no idea I could do that. Sounds crazy, but my self-awareness was soooooo limited.
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3
In my opinion: I am an alcoholic. I am a person. I am responsible for my own actions. How could I ask for figiveness if I did not understand what I did?
The difference between me now and then are my habbits. Yes, I had to learn how to live again but I could not say that I was someone else when I was drinking.
The difference between me now and then are my habbits. Yes, I had to learn how to live again but I could not say that I was someone else when I was drinking.
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