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Old 04-18-2008, 08:00 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Alcoholic Partners & Sex


This is an excerpt from The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage C 1971
pp 48-52.

I think we might often get a clearer picture of the trouble if we gave more consideration to the original reasons for the marriage, and how the basic personalities of the partners react to one another. For example, one known characteristic of the alcoholic is dependency. He tends to look for a mothering wife, someone he can lean on. When he finds a woman he wants to marry, it is therefore one who has a strongly developed mother instinct, and who, in turn, wants a man to baby and protect.

It might seem that two such people would actually complement each other and so make an ideal marriage, since each would provide what the other one needs. But a mother-child relationship is, to begin with, an unsound basis for an adult marriage. Apart from the alcoholism, they’re already headed for trouble.

Then when the alcoholism accentuates the drinker’s dependency, and the burden becomes too much for the wife, she takes refuge in self-pity and resentment.

Her attitude toward him, unconscious through it may be, is not geared to transforming him into a man of responsibility. His attitude toward her, as his drinking becomes more and more compulsive, is an unconscious disappointment that ‘mama’ has failed him by expecting him to be grown up.

When such a man finds sobriety in AA and really takes hold of the Twelve Step program, it is bound to create changes in their marriage relationship that neither one is prepared for. He becomes determined to grow up, to assume his responsibilities, to make his sobriety count in terms of adult living. He wants to overcome his dependency, leave the ‘mama’ business behind him. But this wish cannot, of itself, change his wife’s attitude or behavior, and the rift between them grows wider. They can never return to the early phases of their marriage, for he no longer wants to lean on her.

Since his wife has been to him, from the beginning, a mother figure, he may also have deeply rooted feelings about his marital relations with her, and this would tend to make him shy away from her as a marriage partner.

I am not saying that any of this is clearly realized by the people involved in such a situation, but it is there and it can operate to change their relationship into something that neither of them finds tolerable.

Another way of trying to visualize this difficulty is to realize that the alcoholic is basically insecure and therefore seeks a partner who is stronger. Call it a mother figure, a father figure or a god figure, he will, in his mind, build it up to what his need demands and carefully protect this image from anything that might expose its weakness or reduce its importance in his mind.

I have known many men alcoholics who were so rugged and masculine that no one would ever imagine their being dependent, especially on a woman. They might complain about their wives in superficial ways – ‘she’s a lousy cook, a shiftless housekeeper, does nothing but go to the movies and play cards’- but such complaints are offered only as an excuse for drinking and so are meaningless. They never speak of their wives as being weak, helpless, or stupid. This they would never do, because they’d be destroying the bulwark of protection their wives represent to them, their shield against a menacing world.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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continued

The alcoholic often attributes to his spouse characteristics and attitudes that exist only in his mind. He may place her in a position of super-ego, a kind of deity, and not a gentle and forgiving one, but a punishing one. This, too, meets a desperate need in him. Overcome by his terrible guilt, the alcoholic actually craves punishment because he wants his guilt alleviated. And when she does denounce him, rail at him, fight with him, the ‘culprit’ feels a sense of relief, as though he had paid for his sins. In this way, she plays right into his hands and makes it possible for him to excuse his continued drinking. She, at the same time, has relieved her pent-up feelings about his irresponsibility and neglect, and in this unhealthy interaction, alcoholic marriages often go on year after year with neither one making any effort to break out of this destructive pattern.

If she is gentle and long-suffering, her image increases his guilt and drives him still further in his search for oblivion through alcohol.

But in either case, and whether he is drinking or has become sober, he has unwittingly forced her to stay in place on a pedestal where he feels her to be unapproachable. Being alcoholics, we fell like earthy clods who have no right to make love to a person in that exalted position in our lives. In some cases it’s a matter of feeling that we have partaken of the pleasures of the “devil” and therefore do not feel at lease with an “angel”.

Sometimes, because of sordid entanglements that may happen during blackouts, or even through the warped judgment that alcoholic elation brings about, he may equate alcohol and sex as evils, and once he has taken steps to overcome his addiction to alcohol, he also shies away from sex.

In other cases, difficulties in making sexual adjustments after sobriety may be due to a too-rigid attitude on the part of the spouse. Let’s say a crisis has brought the alcoholic into AA. He begins to correct his character faults, he is learning to take a more realistic view of life. As he struggles to make this slow climb back to sanity, his wife may continue to bring up his past faults. She may resent his dedication to AA that takes him to so many meetings. In other words, he is growing while she is stuck with all the old resentments that keep her angry and confused.

It seems to me the only hope of ironing out difficulties of this kind is for the spouse to turn to Al Anon where she can learn to understand her situation more clearly, and how to overcome the faults in her that contributed to the rift in their marriage. Once she discovers that she was not entirely blameless in all that has happened, they can go forward together and establish a relationship of mutual respect, tolerance and affection.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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That was so true for me! Of course, I didn't realize it at the time, but with one of my ex A's we got into that mother/child situation. I'm not sure when it happened, exactly, but I remember thinking he was acting very childlike, and I looked on him more as a child than as a man. I also know I wasn't attracted to him anymore because ... well... because I thought of him as a child!

It's so amazing to me that this book - The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage, was written in 1971 and all of it is still applicable and important today. I also find it interesting that there were enough people who struggled with these very issues that someone actually WROTE A BOOK about it from a recovery perspective.

I really love this program.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Cats -

I saw this in my marriage and even told my AH that I felt like I was more his mother than his partner. Let's just say he did not agree with my assessment. Very interesting read!
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:18 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Wow this is great and makes sense. I will re-read it later.

I agree on the child-parent issues (which do not only exist in Alcoholic relationships) and will definetely work on this for myself and with my recovering ABF.

I would say on the sexual side, a sober alcoholic is "clear" in his mind and alcohol does not inhibit his "performance". The sex-life rather could be better with recovery.....
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have posted some other info from this same book over on Friends & Family of Substance Abusers...

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...about-sex.html

I don't like to double post, so I'll do some here and some over there. It's a good thing for us to discuss, especially from a recovery perspective.

~Cats
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:28 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Again, CP

A most valuable post on an important topic. I wish they were consolidated.

The tragedy of all this is how people truly in love follow scripts that lead to so much sorrow. And the only way to effectively restore what is really there is to understand it and discuss it. Healing can happen, it simply takes a starting point and two willing, honest people. I truly believe that it can lead to a better life emotionally and sexually than we ever had.

My hope would be that there might be some people who have addressed these issues and healed the rifts successfully. My partner and I are just beginning. We both think we can do it. We both want it. We simply need to comprehend it.

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Old 04-19-2008, 06:18 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I have read both articles and shared the issue with my recovering ABF - Thanks so much for this, Cats (if you have more I would be interested, I will also try and get it from Alanon but in SA it is more difficult it seems)

As his disease was not too advanced and our relationship not too old (1.5 years) we had (and still have) no problems on the sexual side, however him and I both agree that there was definetely a mother-child issue, and in my opinion a strong partner issue (I am a strong person in general).

He now regains slowly self-confidence and as such becomes the adult, and in our relationship I must move to the adult role now (see Eric Berne's, TA model for more reading). I love to have a strong partner but am very well aware that I need to let go and stop controlling.

Our relationship has always been very honest (in general, I exclude dishonesty in conjunction with alcoholism prior recovery) and we discuss most issues very openly (I think this is one of the things I love about him).

So when both are able to express emotions, feelings and desires in an honest way I think emotional balance can be achieved which IMHO is important for a good sexual life. Of course other issues like spending time with each other are very important too. I have read in many threads that an A in recovery is only absorbed by just his recovery, going to AA/NA meetings, do step work etc. I think a balance can be achieved if wanted and openly communicated by both partners. I have asked my BF to do a schedule of all AA/NA meetings per day with alternatives, so we are able to have 1 or 2 evenings for ourselves and can have a bit of flexible social life as well, and he still can achieve 90/90. He was very happy with this and so am I. And I think through things like this, we will be able to have a succesful relationship
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks Angel, you make a lot of good points. I know of many people in early recovery who give all of their attention to recovery and to work, period... leaving the family members alone, bewildered, confused, angry etc. The partner/spouse has those conflicting feelings of being happy that their partner has found recovery and the drinking/using has stopped, but there are still a lot of resentments in the relationship.

The best thing the partner can do is find their own recovery group and put the focus there. If both people have good sponsors with good recovery, it can be very beneficial for the couple.

It's also been my experience that some relationships built on a faulty or fantasy foundation can't survive the changes that recovery brings.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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WOW!!!!!!!!!!

How true of my relationship! My AH began referring to me a 'Mum' in about 2002. It didn't bother me when he used it in reference to me with the kids but it drove me insane when he'd call me Mum and the kids were nowhere is sight. The more I told him not to call me that the more he continued to do it. The more he called me mom the more I found him sexually unattractive.

It got to the point where he would do it in public and in the presence of our friends and again with no kids around. Even the kids thought it was weird. He said I shouldn't be upset about it since his mom calls his dad 'Dad'. To which I say ' He is not calling her Mom' and 'they are in their 70's'. The killer is that my husband is almost 10 years older than me!!

The worst for me would be when he spent an evening calling me 'Mum' and then at bed time would ask to do 'Foolie foolie' yuk!!! How could I. I always felt there something twisted about him calling me Mum and then looking for sex within the next hour or so. I never understood that.

Today, he calls me by my first name because we are in the midst of deciding if we are going to stay together but the second I say something nice or do something nice for him, he's back to calling me 'Mum'

The other thing I used to find strange is that he would kiss me on the cheek the same way he used to kiss my Grandmother that came to visit twice a year.

I will HAVE to order that book.

Thank CP
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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What a great post!

I am one of the wives who was deeply resentful when my husband went back to 90 meetings / 90 days. The man travels a lot for work already!

The truth is: The full reality of the last 9 months and my part in the relationship and the part I played with my reactions to his drinking hit me flat out int he face. I KNEW IT! He had been sober 5 years, then started drinking for 1 1/2 years - it was progressive for BOTH OF US! As he drank more and more, I became more and more codependent. How could I have not seen it coming?! I knew better than that!

So after months of saying he needed to go back to AA, he got up, said it one morning, and I KNEW he meant it. And I got mad. I was so upset that it was up to HIM to decide when our lives would be pulled back together. It was up to HIM to point out that his drinking was bad for him and our family - it was just one more instance in which he was calling all the shots! Man, I was furious!

But I knew he needed to go, and I knew I needed to go to Al-Anon. It has worked the last 7 weeks for both of us and I am facing the fact that Al-Anon will be a part of my life forever. I still resent it sometimes, but I also know I need it.

Thanks for sharing,

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Old 05-11-2013, 09:38 AM   #12 (permalink)
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False Dilemma ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsPajamas View Post
This is an excerpt from The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage C 1971
pp 48-52.

I think we might often get a clearer picture of the trouble if we gave more consideration to the original reasons for the marriage, and how the basic personalities of the partners react to one another. For example, one known characteristic of the alcoholic is dependency. He tends to look for a mothering wife, someone he can lean on. When he finds a woman he wants to marry, it is therefore one who has a strongly developed mother instinct, and who, in turn, wants a man to baby and protect.
Is not the Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage but a false dilemma? Is not marriage per se the real dilemma whoever with ?
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:38 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Wow, I have never thought very much about this before. It's making me examine some painful things.

When my AEX and I were together, we did not live together and we usually were not intimate that often. I rationalized it because we each lived with our parents, and my parents did not allow any boyfriends/girlfriends in the house while at his parents' house there were always about 6 of his family members there in a very tiny house.

When I became pregnant, he immediately lost ALL sexual interest in me. First he said he was "scared he would hurt the baby," but then after the baby was born he would say "I respect you too much to have sex with you." What does that even mean? I don't know why I held on. I would cry and ask why he didn't want to sleep with me anymore. Like typical codependent behavior, I thought it was because I was bad in bed or because my body was unattractive after the birth. He said he did want me, and that we would sleep together "soon," but it simply never happened. During this time, he would also say, "Oh, well bitches get used to sex, but I don't give it to them all the time because then they get used to it." He was telling me to my face how controlling and unhealthy he was about sex, so WHY WHY WHY did I hang on?? Why didn't I realize I deserved better??

I was devastated when I found out he was cheating on me this entire time with another woman. I felt like I failed to keep our family with our son intact, that I failed him as a partner because he didn't want to sleep with me, so of course that must be why he left. I was very confused and very hurt.

But even the times we did sleep together, he wasn't even that great in bed. When HE was done, he was satisfied and that's all that mattered to him. Looking back on this, it makes me so sad and I get angry at myself for allowing this behavior to even happen. Then I don't know why I got sad when he stopped desiring me, even though it was clear he was selfish in bed and it wasn't even that great.

I'm still working on forgiving myself, becoming more assertive, and loving myself enough and building more emotional maturity so that this never happens again.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:45 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Oh, and he would always refer to himself as a "monster" while drunk, and then he would go on and on about how "special" and "different" I was, that I was unlike any other woman he has met before because I was so wonderful and amazing and such a great mom. He would also compare me to his mother.

I know it's pointless to ask "why," but it still hurts.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Is not the Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage but a false dilemma? Is not marriage per se the real dilemma whoever with ?
The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage is the title of the book.

What are you asking about? The real dilemma is the marriage of an alcoholic?

Yes. Marriage to addiction is a dilemma.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I'm still working on forgiving myself, becoming more assertive, and loving myself enough and building more emotional maturity so that this never happens again.
Thank you butterfly for sharing your pain here. I know how hard it is, but it is enlightening. You are doing the work, and you are aware.
Miracles that will bring you the love you deserve.

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Oh, and he would always refer to himself as a "monster" while drunk, and then he would go on and on about how "special" and "different" I was, that I was unlike any other woman he has met before because I was so wonderful and amazing and such a great mom. He would also compare me to his mother.

I know it's pointless to ask "why," but it still hurts.
With my second husband, I did not find out (or pay attention) when he told me things about his mother, how his tone and face would change.
He was saying good things, but like he was smelling rotten garbage at the same time.
Comparing his wife to his mother is not a good thing in my book, and the next man who says something like that to me, I will run like the wind.
Some lessons are a long time coming.
I hope your pain is easing and you are free once again.

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Old 05-11-2013, 04:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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My ABF's mother cheated on his father with a relative of his dad's. The marriage dissolved and she married the relative. To make it worse, ABF idolizes his dad.

Since then, my ABF has more or less hated all women and thought they were sluts. To prove it, he became promiscuous himself and slept with over 100 women before we were (back) together when he was actively abusing cocaine. He despises them all, and himself most of all. It was like he was punishing himself. When he told me about it, the shame was almost palatable.

Before I got pregnant the sex life was fine - good, even. He only wants the very basics, nothing.... extraordinary, shall we say. (Sorry if that is TMI, I do have a point.)

The weird part is, I know what sort of porn he likes - he accidentally left the browser window open one day and I got an eyeful. All really gross and degrading toward women - the opposite of how he is with me.

My God.

So I hope things go back to normal after the baby is born... that I don't magically transform into some sainted mother figure that he doesn't want to touch. That worries me a lot, because to me, a lack of intimacy is completely unacceptable.

Yep, red flags everywhere. Like a car lot - all strings of red flags!!!

LOL! If I don't laugh, I will cry...
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Thank you for the post.... I see a lot here that resonates, but also a lot that doesn't to my specific situation... How about if we're both alcoholics? I've dried out, she hasn't. I so want to move on to something better. Any good literature/papers on this sort of relationship? Thanks in advance...
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:29 PM   #20 (permalink)
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It's making me examine some painful things.

When HE was done, he was satisfied and that's all that mattered to him. Looking back on this, it makes me so sad and I get angry at myself for allowing this behavior to even happen. Then I don't know why I got sad when he stopped desiring me, even though it was clear he was selfish in bed and it wasn't even that great.

I'm still working on forgiving myself, becoming more assertive, and loving myself enough and building more emotional maturity so that this never happens again.
I agree, butterfly. This thread has hit on some things that have been bothering me for the last few weeks....

Since my XA apparently only ever wanted me for sex, the issue wasn't that he didn't want to have sex with me. But he was also very selfish when it came to sex, it was always about what he wanted, when and how he wanted it. And the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that he has some sort of sexual dysfunction, either from something in his past or from the years of drug/alcohol abuse.

For starters, sex was always pretty 'rough,' and a lot of times it was a little TOO rough - it would usually take me a couple of days to 'recover' from sex, and the bruises would take about a week to fade. He had 'performance issues' when it came to regular sex, and would only be able to 'maintain' when I was 'servicing' him, which is what he always wanted 99% of the time. Several times, he watched porn during it. And when he WOULD make an attempt at pleasing me, it would be a few minutes of, again, a 'rough' attempt, and then he'd ask in an annoyed tone, "Are you done yet??" To which I would quickly reply yes and then get right back to pleasing him. And I swear, one night, I felt sure he was going to choke me during it....he brought his hands up to my throat, and kept them there, gently probing around, but never applied any pressure. I'm not saying he was going to kill me, he probably was thinking about doing that erotic asphyxiation...but I'm glad he never took it any further.

And like you, I'm working on forgiving myself for allowing myself to be treated like that and continuing to go back for more. I can't believe I was so desperate for his love and attention that I let him do whatever he wanted to me, because in my majorly messed-up mind, the only thing that mattered was his pleasure, his happiness, and I was willing to do whatever it took to give it to him. I truly believed if I could make him happy with whatever he wanted or needed from me, which was sex, that he would then love me. It terrifies me to see how deeply my codependency issues run, to the point of not valuing myself enough to walk away from someone who was so obviously using and degrading me as a sex object. I feel very stupid and very ashamed....and I realize that I need to do some serious work on myself so that I never allow this to happen again.
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