"At least I didn't drink"

Old 04-14-2008, 02:42 AM
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"At least I didn't drink"

For those who didn't read the first post, I've been with agf for 20 months as of yesterday. We've had our share of tribulations, those with much experience have probably heard all too often before, but a bit of an update.

Two nights ago, a couple 'friends' spoke with agf about going out to eat. As stated in my other post, these friends have been enabling of gf's alcoholism, even after being told about the situation. They've also voiced to agf that they think we should break up because I'm "too uptight and no fun." Being college age only adds to this sentiment. So naturally I'm none too inclined to hang out with these people, and agf knows this. Quite often she has defended them, saying that she likes them and that whether they think we should break up or not doesn't have a bearing on her...agree to disagree more or less.

While the plans for the night did not explicitly mention alcohol, it's nigh routine with these people, so I explained to her that if we did go, that she would have to be prepared to make that decision. I told her that I was tired of being used as the excuse/scapegoat for not drinking (My bf doesn't like it when I drink, so I can't), and that it really would be up to her to drink or not, but that she'd have to deal with the consequences that follow from it. She was quick to mention that she could just stay the night with them so I wouldn't have to deal with her being drunk.

That's all good and well, but on top of the alcoholism, she does have issues with anxiety and depression. Even if 'nothing' happens in the immediacy following the actual drinking, her mood will slowly sour as she sobers up, and too often leads to dire self-denigration and on occasion cutting. At one point she said that she told these friends all this, and that they saw nothing wrong with it, as they've "been there, done that."

She also, at the time, insisted that she either didn't have a problem with alcohol at all, or that she doesn't have a problem with it now. I pointed out that she was going to such great lengths to ensure a chance to drink just two weeks after she had deliberately lied to me about drinking with these same friends. She was also considering spending the night there in order to drink, which would mean she'd spend the first part of our 20 month anniversary drunk and away from home...seems to be going to awfully great lengths for something you just 'want to do.'

This seemed to resonate a bit, as she sidetracked the conversation to neutral topics, and just decided not to go out with these friends. My mood didn't immediately buoy, however, and it didn't sit well with her. At first she was angry...expecting me to do a 180 and be chipper and loving because she didn't drink, even saying that me acting this way just made her want to drink more. Then after a bit of time, she became sullen, saying how she always manages to screw things up and will never get it right, coming close to admitting that she has a problem with alcohol, but not outright saying it. She also seemed floored, at the time, that I would be near the point of breaking up with her...and yet at other times she's been incredibly frightened that it was going to happen. She responded with, "but at least I didn't drink."

It seems as if agf is always kinda hanging in between accepting that she has a problem and in need of help versus writing it off in some way (only around certain people for example).

My boundary, if you will, has been that agf needs to accept she's an alcoholic fully (she has said as much many times, but as stated also denies it at times) and take steps to deal with it for us to really have a future. I will be going to grad school next fall, and I've read literature that says those in recovery typically need to have a stable situation free of major changes for at least a year in order to truly get sober. So while by the book there's still enough time, it'd certainly be close. It seems to be an awfully fine line between genuinely attempting to get help with one's condition and doing just enough to take the heat off for a while.

Any thoughts from those far more experienced? Was there something looking back that you can point to as evidence that the alcoholic had dedicated themselves to getting help and not just appeasement? Is it normal/possible for alcoholics to genuinely have this sort of yo-yo type attitude...or is it that at no point has agf really thought she had a problem?

Admittably, I think part of agf's quandary is that she can go months at a time without these sorts of incidents, thinking more of the stereotyped alcoholic who spends every waking moment thinking about alcohol or has to drink every day.

P.S. I apologize for the novellas that are my posts...can you tell I was a philosophy major? :rof
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
My boundary, if you will, has been that agf needs to accept she's an alcoholic fully (she has said as much many times, but as stated also denies it at times) and take steps to deal with it for us to really have a future.
Boundaries are not supposed to be an attempt to change to behavior of another. Boundaries are meant to spell out behavior we find unacceptable and what we are going to do if those boundaries are violated.

For instance, I have a boundary that I cannot tolerate drunkeness and if I am inthe presence of people who choose to be drunk, I leave.

You cannot force your gf to change. Only she can decide she is ready and wanting to change.
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
Any thoughts from those far more experienced? Was there something looking back that you can point to as evidence that the alcoholic had dedicated themselves to getting help and not just appeasement? Is it normal/possible for alcoholics to genuinely have this sort of yo-yo type attitude...or is it that at no point has agf really thought she had a problem?

Admittably, I think part of agf's quandary is that she can go months at a time without these sorts of incidents, thinking more of the stereotyped alcoholic who spends every waking moment thinking about alcohol or has to drink every day.

P.S. I apologize for the novellas that are my posts...can you tell I was a philosophy major? :rof
I can tell you my perspective from the negative point if view. My alcoholic ex probably-I can't say that for a fact, mind you-thinks she has a problem, but was never willing to do what needed to be done. The kind of alcoholic you're referring to, a 'maintenance drinker' is someone in the end stage, will take a while for her to hit that.

I applaud your boundary, that was my final boundary in the end. Either you get help for your addiction, or we're done. She chose alcoholism, btw. You have to accept the fact that they may go the route of addiction, and keep in mind that she isn't making that choice, her addiction is, makes it easier for you to accept. My thoughts go out to you.
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:48 AM
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Hiya thatoneguy-
I like your "philosophical" perspective - it feels thoughtful and calm! Living w/ an alcoholic can feel pretty insane at times so it's good you have some ability to detach and look on dispassionately at what's really going down.

A couple things stuck out to me:
"It seems to be an awfully fine line between genuinely attempting to get help with one's condition and doing just enough to take the heat off for a while."

That's a classic alcoholic behavior. It took me along time to understand that "nothing gets in the way of their drinking." That means they will continue to behave in ways that make it possible for their drinking to continue without interference from others or even from their own better judgement!

Addiction is the disease of denial. So if for her, not drinking every day lets her deny she hasa problem and so she can continue to drink, then she will not drink every day. If keeping a good job or a slot in grad school will make her believe she does not have a problem, then she will not lose the job or the spot in school. Do you see what I'm saying?

For a long time alcoholics can keep this up. But sadly it is a progressive disease and eventually their addiction will get so bad/obvious that they will only be able to fool themselves and no one else.

One of my A brothers still does not admit he has a problem. Through 2 DUI's, emergency neurosurgery for a hematoma suffered in a bar brawl, endless financial nightmares (he gambles when he drinks), countless lovely women leaving him in disgust and frustration - but nope - he's not an alcoholic - alcohol has NOTHING to do with any of that. OK.

Because he hasn't lost his job and he doesn't drink during the day (before 5p) he is not an alcoholic....whatevs - it's not our decision to make when they should recognize and get help or even IF they will get help.

We can only focus on ourselves. Because they will play those mind games forever and try to get us to validate their various states of denial or feel sorry for them (I'm such a loser, nothing ever goes my way, etc!) The compulsion to drink is so strong, such a physical addiction that it is overwhelms rational thought and rational behavior.

"Any thoughts from those far more experienced? Was there something looking back that you can point to as evidence that the alcoholic had dedicated themselves to getting help and not just appeasement?"

Yes, of course - BEHAVIOR, not "talk" or promises. When the person actually gets help, gets sober, AND actively works some kind of recovery program to maintain their sobriety and work on their underlying issues...otherwise it's all talk.

"Is it normal/possible for alcoholics to genuinely have this sort of yo-yo type attitude...or is it that at no point has agf really thought she had a problem?"
Normal - more than normal it is de rigeur! It is part of the M.O. It's why the roller-coaster metaphor is so apt for families of alcoholics/addicts.

It's good you've set some boundaries in place for yourself. Although maybe yours is more like an ultimatum - get sober or I leave you.

I think there's some good advice against ultimatums on here --I'm not clear on why they're a bad idea -- someone else here on SR maybe with some experience with the difference can answer that?

I hope it works out for you guys - and best of luck in grad school! You going for the Masters in Phil??

Peace,
B.
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:57 AM
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I didn't give an ultimatum, per se, but did leave my relationship because my ex won't get sober. If you are going to tell her that it's you or alcohol, be prepared that she will likely pick alcohol.

My xabf admitted to being an alcoholic several times, but insist he doesn't need help.
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:09 PM
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This seemed to resonate a bit, as she sidetracked the conversation to neutral topics, and just decided not to go out with these friends. My mood didn't immediately buoy, however, and it didn't sit well with her. At first she was angry...expecting me to do a 180 and be chipper and loving because she didn't drink, even saying that me acting this way just made her want to drink more. Then after a bit of time, she became sullen, saying how she always manages to screw things up and will never get it right, coming close to admitting that she has a problem with alcohol, but not outright saying it. She also seemed floored, at the time, that I would be near the point of breaking up with her...and yet at other times she's been incredibly frightened that it was going to happen. She responded with, "but at least I didn't drink."

I thought life would be fine if he just quit drinking...little did I know that I had just opened a can of worms. Once the alcohol was removed from the living situation there was a whole new physcodrama that emerged which left me both physically and mentally exhausted. What you describe above is a small glimmer of what my 'dry' ah was like at any given moment after he quit without a program. There is a really good pamphet available through Al Anon - A Merry-Go-Round Named Denial which does a fine job of decribing living with effects of a loved one's addiciton. Here is the link. The merry go round

It seems to be an awfully fine line between genuinely attempting to get help with one's condition and doing just enough to take the heat off for a while.
I find alcoholism highly insidious.

Most people I know in recovery don't have a fine line; their line is highly boldfaced, embossed, cemented and entirely clear. There is no question about what they are and no question that their recovery is first and foremost in their lives.


BTW, I find it interesting that you refer to your post as a novellas.
A short prose tale often characterized by moral teaching or satire.
A fictional prose narrative that is longer and more complex than a short story; a short novel.
Freudianism perhaps?

Your write beautifully! Keep posting!

Best wishes
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:36 PM
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Hey There,

I think you might be living my life, all of what you said sounded very familiar to me. I'll try to be brief but could probably write 3 pages of commentary!

FRIENDS: I'd here many, many times 'just loosen up and have fun' and 'you're too uptight'. Truthfully, I love to loosen up and have fun but trying to keep my alcoholic wife from hanging on other guys at dinner is not my idea of fun.

180 EMOTIONS: There were many times my wife would do horrible things and then just say sorry or I won't do that again. If I didn't accept that fast enough then she'd get enraged at me and tell me how she was sick of putting up with my $h1t!

BOUNDARIES: You can't set boundaries for the alcoholic. My wife promised me she wouldn't drink again, but she did. Because of the 'boundary' she chose to hide it and lie about it.

God bless and good luck...
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:37 PM
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It seems as though one's splitting hairs between the labels of boundaries and ultimatums, but let me explain myself more fully. It's not as cut and dried as get sober or I leave, else I would have already been gone. I can not accept the repeated arguments, the personal insults, the wanton endangerment, etc. that comes as a result of drinking. Thus, when they arise, I will remove myself from the situation as they are detrimental to the relationship and me.

How long one continues to sit in the loop of A choosing to drink, bringing about negative consequences, and then one sticking to his/her boundary by removing him/herself from the situation is relative, is it not? Simply acknowledging internally that A's behavior is going to take a toll on you and the relationship, one which could become too much if left unchecked, I don't find to be an ultimatum but rather being honestly self aware. With your line of thought, Barb, anyone who discontinues the enabling of that loop has set an ultimatum. If I were sitting here saying that I won't let A get fired because of the drinking, the codie police would be out in force. So what would be the difference if I refuse the prospect of the relationship ending because of the drinking? To arbitrarily bar any given consequence from befalling an A as a result of his/her drinking is rather codish, is it not?

My apologies if you were inferring certain attitudes about me personally, and those inferred attitudes were the dividing line between boundary and ultimatum for you. I'm not forcing, or expect to force, agf to change. She will or she won't, plain and simple. I have not specifically said to agf, get sober or we're over. Though her mother has told her that repeatedly, and may be a major impairment in the process, but I also can't control the communication between them. But I digress, as debating the difference between boundaries and ultimatums was not the point of this post.

I was looking for those more experienced to give some feedback as to where the line between getting help and the run-of-the-mill appeasement to protect the addiction lies, so thank you to those that actually helped address that. The dual phenomenon is certainly a befuddling one. It really seems as though I can be dealing with two entirely different people depending on whether agf is having well...for lack of a better term... an episode versus the calm inbetween.

And yes, B, the intent is to get my doctorate and teach on the collegiate level. I know it's a rather specific niche, and the current job market may dictate a different career in the short term, but it's something to which I earnestly look forward. I slogged through two years of forensic science, excelling but not particularly enthused about it. I finally came to the conclusion that there wasn't much point to sticking it out, as it's a bit foolish to think that things will change when at the core the material was always going to be the same without any major breakthroughs. If you're going to be doing something for the next 40+ years, might as well be something you enjoy. Symbolic much?

Haha, Co...I only consciously use novella to indicate length, because they're not quite long enough to fill a book, but a tad wordy nonetheless. And other forums (Warcraft) I'm sure I'd be met with TLDR...too long, didn't read. Though I'm sure Sigmund might say otherwise...he'd also say that biting my lip is not a mindless reaction to semi-tense environments but rather indicative of an oral sexual fixation left unfulfilled because my mother didn't breastfeed, but thank you for the compliment just the same
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Old 04-14-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
It seems as though one's splitting hairs between the labels of boundaries and ultimatums, but let me explain myself more fully. It's not as cut and dried as get sober or I leave, else I would have already been gone. Why not?
I can not accept the repeated arguments, the personal insults, the wanton endangerment, etc. that comes as a result of drinking. Thus, when they arise, I will remove myself from the situation as they are detrimental to the relationship and me.

How long one continues to sit in the loop of A choosing to drink, bringing about negative consequences, and then one sticking to his/her boundary by removing him/herself from the situation is relative, is it not? Simply acknowledging internally that A's behavior is going to take a toll on you and the relationship, one which could become too much if left unchecked, I don't find to be an ultimatum but rather being honestly self aware. Who should acknowledge internally? The A or the partner? Who needs to be self aware? As codepenedent, we sometimes expect the A to admit or be aware but we often over look the fact that the Codie is often as sick as the A. It is not all about them, it's mostly about us.
With your line of thought, Barb, anyone who discontinues the enabling of that loop has set an ultimatum. If I were sitting here saying that I won't let A get fired because of the drinking, the codie police would be out in force. So what would be the difference if I refuse the prospect of the relationship ending because of the drinking? To arbitrarily bar any given consequence from befalling an A as a result of his/her drinking is rather codish, is it not?

My apologies if you were inferring certain attitudes about me personally, and those inferred attitudes were the dividing line between boundary and ultimatum for you. I'm not forcing, or expect to force, agf to change. She will or she won't, plain and simple. I have not specifically said to agf, get sober or we're over. Though her mother has told her that repeatedly, and may be a major impairment in the process, but I also can't control the communication between them. But I digress, as debating the difference between boundaries and ultimatums was not the point of this post.

I was looking for those more experienced to give some feedback as to where the line between getting help and the run-of-the-mill appeasement to protect the addiction lies, apologies for not understanding but are you asking to get help for yourself or for the A? You wrote:
"It seems to be an awfully fine line between genuinely attempting to get help with one's condition and doing just enough to take the heat off for a while."'Taking the heat off' - just a diversion tactic designed to reel you into the loop/merry go round again.
so thank you to those that actually helped address that. The dual phenomenon is certainly a befuddling one. It really seems as though I can be dealing with two entirely different people depending on whether agf is having well...for lack of a better term... an episode versus the calm inbetween.

And yes, B, the intent is to get my doctorate and teach on the collegiate level. I know it's a rather specific niche, and the current job market may dictate a different career in the short term, but it's something to which I earnestly look forward. I slogged through two years of forensic science, excelling but not particularly enthused about it. I finally came to the conclusion that there wasn't much point to sticking it out, as it's a bit foolish to think that things will change when at the core the material was always going to be the same without any major breakthroughs. If you're going to be doing something for the next 40+ years, might as well be something you enjoy. Symbolic much?

Haha, Co...I only consciously use novella to indicate length, because they're not quite long enough to fill a book, but a tad wordy nonetheless. And other forums (Warcraft) I'm sure I'd be met with TLDR...too long, didn't read. Though I'm sure Sigmund might say otherwise...he'd also say that biting my lip is not a mindless reaction to semi-tense environments but rather indicative of an oral sexual fixation left unfulfilled because my mother didn't breastfeed, but thank you for the compliment just the same
My mother didn't breastfeed me either!!!! I'll have to conduct my own study on the breastfeeding lip biting theory since I breastfed my three kids for 2 yrs plus each.

CDM
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Old 04-14-2008, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
How long one continues to sit in the loop of A choosing to drink, bringing about negative consequences, and then one sticking to his/her boundary by removing him/herself from the situation is relative, is it not? Simply acknowledging internally that A's behavior is going to take a toll on you and the relationship, one which could become too much if left unchecked, I don't find to be an ultimatum but rather being honestly self aware. With your line of thought, Barb, anyone who discontinues the enabling of that loop has set an ultimatum. If I were sitting here saying that I won't let A get fired because of the drinking, the codie police would be out in force. So what would be the difference if I refuse the prospect of the relationship ending because of the drinking? To arbitrarily bar any given consequence from befalling an A as a result of his/her drinking is rather codish, is it not?
I think you've misinterpreted what I said or I didn't phrase it well. I think I did better in the thread about why ultimatims are bad.

The leaving I mentioned in my original response to you was in terms of drinken behavior from anyone, not necessarily someone I am personally involved with. I jsut have no desire to bearound drunks anymore. I've gotten to the point where I find it something I just don't need in my life.

When I finally left my AH, setting the ultimate boundary I guess, it was not an ultimatim for changing his behavior. I specifically told him I hoped he would someday admit to his alcoholism and get into recovery but I also specifically told him it was his life to live as he saw fit. I left for me and my son, to give us a better life. I did not do it with any expectation that it would lead AH to change. And it hasn't led him in that direction. His choice.
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Old 04-14-2008, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
The dual phenomenon is certainly a befuddling one. It really seems as though I can be dealing with two entirely different people depending on whether agf is having well...for lack of a better term... an episode versus the calm inbetween.
For me, it was this inconsistency that was the real problem. It is what made me absolutely insane, and with good reason.

If a child is given consistent love, then they are fine (natch.) You'd think that if they were given no love, that would be the worst, but eventually that is accepted as the state of affairs, and they get on with it and focus on other things.

What is the worst is inconsistent love. It leads to obsession. The same holds true for behavior. The whole Dr. Jeckell/ Mr. Hyde deal would maybe be tolerable, or definitively intolerable, if there was some logic behind it.

But it's unpredictable, and beasts that we are we keep trying to get that thing (love, or the sweet version of our beloved) to appear again. We don't know what causes it, how to trigger it, so our brains go into overdrive trying to make it reappear again. It's absolute torture, and we end up twisting ourselves, uselessly of course, to try and get the result that happened once.

My personal opinion is that this is the worst thing. It isn't any of the behaviors themselves (although they can really be a trial), it's inconsistency.
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by good_luck View Post
For me, it was this inconsistency that was the real problem. It is what made me absolutely insane, and with good reason.
[...snip...]
But it's unpredictable, and beasts that we are we keep trying to get that thing (love, or the sweet version of our beloved) to appear again. We don't know what causes it, how to trigger it, so our brains go into overdrive trying to make it reappear again. It's absolute torture, and we end up twisting ourselves, uselessly of course, to try and get the result that happened once.
GL, I absolutely agree. My XAGF did the Jekyll and Hyde thing for years. I ended up obsessed with trying to track her mood and trying to work out what I could do different "next time" to try to stop an (apparently) happy GF from turning into a raging GF. All my attention was on her, her mood swings, her mental state, and what I could do to try to keep her blow-outs under some kind of control.

What an immense waste of time that all was.

Mr B.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:21 AM
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I'm coming from a bit of a different perspective.....think of me from the perspective of your agf's mother. My A son has had some truly beautiful (inside and out) women in his life. I have cared about each of them deeply. He has lost these beautiful women as a result of his irrational mood swings and Dr J & Mr H behavior and drunkeness. He would be devastated when they would leave him. It was also painful for me when this would happen because I cared about them (and it was painful to see him hurt). BUT I respect each one of them for setting their boundries with him and getting out.

By doing so, he was feeling the consequences of his behavior. They did the kindest thing for themselves AND FOR HIM.

We can get lost in the debate of defining boundaries and ultimatums. It is really somewhat irrelevant. The bottom line is that we all should have boundaries about what is or is not acceptable. Everytime we allow someone to stomp all over those boundaries, we strengthen their ability to continue to do so (and it isn't really a boundary if they are allowed to cross it continually).

Perhaps rather than focusing on the drinking aspect, you could focus on the behaviors resulting from the drinking that you find unacceptable. If those behaviors continue, you do what you need to do for YOU!

You are a bright man with a bright future. Do what you need to do to keep your light shining.

gentle hugs
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Old 04-16-2008, 01:25 AM
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Thanks CDM for the merry-go-round link; it made sense in a lot of ways. To backtrack to your questions, I was referring to myself acknowledging that the negative effects from the drinking could result in too much of a toll. I was also asking help for myself as to understanding the difference between when an A is genuinely wanting to get help versus making an effort as a diversionary tactic. I had an initial impression that agf was falling more into the latter, but seeing as how I am very much green to being around alcoholics, I welcomed the perspectives of others...as I'm sure many of you have seen it first-hand and heard it aplenty. Let me know how that study is going btw

My apologies Barb, as with the further discussion I believe we were both misinterpreting each other. I'm very much coming from the point of view you expressed here:

Originally Posted by Barbara52 View Post
When I finally left my AH, setting the ultimate boundary I guess, it was not an ultimatim for changing his behavior.
As stated, she'll change or she won't, and our relationship status should not be a driving force one way or another. Your first reply, however, sounded as though you were assuming I was using a break-up as leverage to get her to change, and focused solely on that, ignoring my seeking of information in regard to getting help vs. diversion tactics. My reply was to assure that I wasn't issuing an ultimatum on changing the behavior or trying to gain leverage, and I really didn't want the thread to derail into a debate over boundary/ultimatum, but my apologies for any curtness in my reply.

I am new to all this, and I thought that perhaps I hadn't grasped certain terms that get thrown around here as you all have come to use them, but as kindeyes recognized, sometimes one can get overly absorbed in the particulars and lose the deeper meaning behind them. And thank you kind, for the motherly perspective. Unfortunately agf is the center and ends of her mother's universe. Of late agf's mother has been telling her to pretend the problems don't exist and to just pretend she's happy regardless, and it certainly seems as though it's making things that much worse for all of us.

Good point on focusing on the behaviors also, and that's what I've been attempting to do. But that was the snag that prompted my questions in the first place, because when said behaviors were cropping up while she was sober, I was then getting "at least I didn't drink," and it left me befuddled. Naturally, it's good on the one hand that she's not drinking, but if said behaviors surface when she abstains from drinking too...

And yes MrB/GL/TD...the inconsistency is one of, if not, the hardest parts of it all. One day she sees me as a loving, patient boyfriend with whom she wants to have a future...and the next she may see me as a lying, shady, cheating sleaze. Knowing that she doesn't mean it blunts it some, but it only goes so far. The interconnectedness of the alcoholism with the emotional baggage carried from anger/depression/anxiety issues can make it especially perplexing.

Noticing the removal of the inflammatory post, I've edited accordingly, but I will say this in a general sense... I'm sure the regulars have seen innumerable "newbies" such as myself ask the same questions and relate similar experiences. I'm sure you may very well get tired of having to replicate the same tried and true responses, and for my part I'm going to make a more thorough reading of the stickies. But remember, not all of us have read every pamphlet or had years of experience...that's why we're here, quite possibly in a time of crisis where e-courtesies like reading stickies may give way to a frenetic "what do I do about this" type post. I was obviously guilty of the same. A simple link to a stickied post that covers relevant topics and a kind word can go a long way.

At the very least, remember that there is a person behind each post, each computer. Taken from CDM's link, "If recovery from alcoholism is to be initiated, it must begin with the persons in the second act who must learn the dynamics of the illness, and to act in an entirely different fashion. New roles cannot be learned without turning to others who understand the play, and putting into practice the insight and understanding gained from this source."
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by thatoneguy. I was also asking help for myself as to understanding the difference between when an A is genuinely wanting to get help versus making an effort as a diversionary tactic.
That is actually a very good question. Alcoholics are experts at diversionary tactics. I've been "tricked" by this tactic more times than I care to count. My A son didn't want help. He agreed to go to treatment via intervention. He relapsed a few months later and his world quickly started to fall apart again. He then came to me and said "I need help. I need to get back into treatment." And he went. He is currently working his program.

I doubt that your agf will be able to white knuckle it--just stop. Unless they work a program, you will see the alcoholic behaviors continue even though they are not drinking. And that IS confusing to say the least. This is referred to as "dry drunk". Sweet as pie one minute, lunatics the next.

Unfortunately, the disease of alcoholism protects itself. That is why the lies, accusations, diversions, behavior issues, etc. all happen. It's one of the ways that this disease manifests. That's why you will hear people say "that's the disease talking".

One of the ways I know my son is actively working his program is his behavior. He is a kind, thoughtful, loving son when he is in recovery. I can tell if he relapses entirely based on his behavior......it changes. I have to be prepared to respond accordingly. If his behavior is "acceptable" he has my attention. If not, he doesn't. I have to work my own program in order to keep from falling into my old behaviors.

I hope you can forgive your agf's mother for her lack of understanding of this disease. We (the loved ones) can be in denial and do all of the "wrong" things. Quite honestly, until all of her loved ones are on board with her need for recovery, it is doubtful that she will do anything about it. You will always be working against that. I don't want to dash your hope but Mom needs to get on board with recognizing the disease and getting her daughter help. Moms and daughters (I have oneof those too) have a very special bond. It's an uphill battle in the best of circumstances........but it's a vertical climb when there are forces that are undermining good intentions.

I'm sorry that any of the replies you received in this thread were negative or harsh. I hope you stick around. This place is full of insight....sometimes delivered with brutal bluntness. Take what you need and leave the rest.

gentle hugs
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:53 AM
  # 16 (permalink)  
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What is the worst is inconsistent love. It leads to obsession. The same holds true for behavior. The whole Dr. Jeckell/ Mr. Hyde deal would maybe be tolerable, or definitively intolerable, if there was some logic behind it.

Oh, my GOD, thank you for posting this, good luck. It is exactly what ended it for me with my xabf.

Great guy -- until his disease took over. Then gone, gone, gone. Then back. Then gone. Then back.

I don't want 1/2 of a partner.

I don't want to be with someone who is perfectly comfortable abandoning me (not that it's actually personal) for WEEKS on end and, furthermore, justifies it by claiming I'm the one exhibiting "abusive" behavior. *sigh* And who then shows up acting as if nothing was really wrong at all. All part of the disease...

I still love this man, always will. Love does not mean staying. Love does not mean going. Love is just love.

I ended it because I want more from a partner and I believe my HP wants more FOR me.

The back and forth is what makes us nuts. You're right -- it's where the obsession is born and how it lives. AAAAARRRRGGH!

I thank all the loving power in the universe that I let go when it was time to do so. Not before I was ready but when it was time for me to do it.

It's MY life. I get to take care of it.
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Old 04-16-2008, 01:03 PM
  # 17 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by abcdefg View Post
[COLOR="SeaGreen"]
I don't want to be with someone who is perfectly comfortable abandoning me (not that it's actually personal) for WEEKS on end and, furthermore, justifies it by claiming I'm the one exhibiting "abusive" behavior. *sigh* And who then shows up acting as if nothing was really wrong at all. All part of the disease...
I totally went through this with mine. He would always say that I was emotionally abusive to him during yet another irrational argument. Then act like everything was fine. Mine also often took it a step further. He would actually say he was sorry for the fight, then hours or days later would decide he wasn't over it yet and the whole cycle began again!

One fight like this still sticks out. It was toward the end of the relationship. I dropped him off at a gig earlier in the day and drove his car back to my apartment. He came back in with another bandmate at 3 in the morning. He started some crazy argument before the gig that I thought was completely resolved by the time he got out of the car. When he arrived at my house, he wasn't speaking to me and said he was going to crash at my place because he was too tired to drive back into the city (about a 45 minute drive). I asked if he was not speaking to me or upset at me. He said he had nothing to say to me because he was upset over MY behavior earlier in the day. Hmmm. I told him to leave because I wasn't going to be uncomfortable in my own home if I didn't have to. He looked puzzled by this, gathered his things, gave me a bunch of puppy dog eyes before he walked out the door, then finally left. Of course, I was worried sick something would happen to him, but I just couldn't do the craziness that night.

Now his whole family, and anyone who will listen, knows what a rotten person I am ; )

Thanks! (((abc)))
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Old 04-16-2008, 01:44 PM
  # 18 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by thatoneguy View Post
Noticing the removal of the inflammatory post, I've edited accordingly, but I will say this in a general sense... I'm sure the regulars have seen innumerable "newbies" such as myself ask the same questions and relate similar experiences. I'm sure you may very well get tired of having to replicate the same tried and true responses, and for my part I'm going to make a more thorough reading of the stickies. But remember, not all of us have read every pamphlet or had years of experience...that's why we're here, quite possibly in a time of crisis where e-courtesies like reading stickies may give way to a frenetic "what do I do about this" type post. I was obviously guilty of the same. A simple link to a stickied post that covers relevant topics and a kind word can go a long way.
I hope you are finding the help and support you are looking for here. It's a GREAT site and probably saved my life. I found this place back in June when my exabf, who was supposedly in recovery turned my life upside down.

I'm not understanding the above however, from what i read, everyone has been supportive and understanding. We are just speaking of our own experiences. A reading the sticky suggestion is just a helpful tool for you and so many of us.

I hope things work out with you and your gf. It's a tough road to travel and i don't wish it on anyone.....

hugs
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Old 04-17-2008, 01:41 AM
  # 19 (permalink)  
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Kind, the "dry drunk syndrome" sounds all too familiar and seems to be running rampant this week. Even though she's not drinking, she's been magnifying trivial matters into epic arguments, making bewildering accusations of unfaithful thoughts/actions, etc one day and calculating the probability our children will have brown eyes the next.

I also don't harbor any ill will toward her mother, but I do recognize that she does play a very large part in the sustaining of the disease. Deep down I know she wants her to stop drinking too, as it's caused its own share of problems within their family. But she's also shown that no matter the circumstance, she will rescue agf from whatever trouble in which she has gotten herself. That 'safety net' emerges when agf's alcoholism is discussed as "mother will never abandon me, can't say that about you" or "her love isn't conditional."

Unfortunately, there's some guilt there, as both her mother and her grandmother are recovered alcoholics, and agf has used that as leverage when her mother has mentioned it before. I think the fact that her uncle is so sick also, has left everyone drained, and so none of them can afford much time/effort to it, especially now that they don't deal with it regularly with her out of the house.

And no worries kind/hbb, all of the posts you see have been both helpful and genial. And I am very much appreciative for as much- many of you have helped me to understand so much more about the situation and how everyone in it is affected.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:36 PM
  # 20 (permalink)  
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I'm new here but wanted to write that I can totally relate to this post. I too wonder if my AH is truly in "recovery" or if he's just doing it so I don't kick him out again. Does he really think he's an alcoholic, or does just say that so that *I* will feel better?

I'm on the merry-go-round right now too. AH is definitely a "dry drunk". I'm trying to change myself and stop engaging him. Of course, tonight I fell off the wagon, so to speak, by allowing myself to be pulled into yet another stupid fight. Now I'm left wondering will he drink tonight because of our fight?

Thank you for posting this. Shannon
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