this is what I keep reading but I can't grasp it...
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this is what I keep reading but I can't grasp it...
Are you in love with the man or the man you want him to be, that you think he can be?
But my point is....that people keep telling me that I didn't really know him, the REAL him, the SOBER him. And that's what I'm having trouble with. I FEEL like I DID really know him. He's extremely intelligent and we were both up on current news events, especially the presidential race, and we communicated more in our relationship than I'd ever experienced in ANY other relationship I've ever had. We had a relationship to die for. The relationship wasn't the problem. But the drinking was.
The DOWNside of it all is that he is bipolar and wasn't taking his meds. And the drinking was making him irritable and gave him horrible mood swings, although he was ALWAYS sweet to me and treated me good. He just disappointed me alot. Didn't want to do anything I wanted to do - he tried to make everything all about ME but it always ended up to be all about him.
NOW that he made the decision to detox and go into treatment again, his family tells me he is back on an anti depressant. So this means that when he gets out of treatment in 3 months he IS going to be a different person. I DO realize that, but please help me with this.....I DO think I still KNOW him.....I DO think I will still be in love with the person he is inside, and even moreso because he will be SOBER then, without the effects of what the alcohol was doing to him. Why WOULDN'T I still know him?
by the way, he has been in and out of treatment a few times in his life. I think 3 or 4 times altogether, and he HAS accomplished staying sober for 3 and a half years at the longest I think. From what I've gathered, he falls off the wagon when he stops working the program and when the accountability stops.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Tricia,
I just don't think life and love should be this hard. The addiction is always going to be there and will take precedence over everything else. It doesn't go away. This will be your life, constantly. You are not married to this man. Read back into some of the posts of others who wanted so much to "win" with their addicted loved one that they failed to see all the warning signs leading up to their present state of complete madness in their relationship with an addicted spouse. Most will say that their higher power gave them plenty of warnings that they ignored. You came here for a reason. Keep reading, keep thinking about all that's happened, and try to keep the focus on you, not him. People who love addicts usually have a problem themselves, and if they don't, they definitely do after spending years with the addict. Is this really the way you want to spend the rest of your life, with addiction always being the number 1 focus? Wouldn't you rather have that focus on yourself, on life, on real love?
I just don't think life and love should be this hard. The addiction is always going to be there and will take precedence over everything else. It doesn't go away. This will be your life, constantly. You are not married to this man. Read back into some of the posts of others who wanted so much to "win" with their addicted loved one that they failed to see all the warning signs leading up to their present state of complete madness in their relationship with an addicted spouse. Most will say that their higher power gave them plenty of warnings that they ignored. You came here for a reason. Keep reading, keep thinking about all that's happened, and try to keep the focus on you, not him. People who love addicts usually have a problem themselves, and if they don't, they definitely do after spending years with the addict. Is this really the way you want to spend the rest of your life, with addiction always being the number 1 focus? Wouldn't you rather have that focus on yourself, on life, on real love?
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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for the great majority of my relationship, my ex was sober. unfortunately, no matter how much time we spent together, i find it's almost impossible to ever truly "know" an alcoholic or addict... they're the only ones that seem to know themselves.
believe me, i would have sworn up and down and bet my life that no one knew my ex the way i did and how well we knew each other and how in love we were... it's only until i took a step back from the relationship for months and months before i could realize that you can't really ever KNOW an active alcoholic, or even one with some sobriety under their belt.
the recovering alcoholic i dated was DRASTICALLY different from the active alcoholic that my ex is now. i could never, ever compare the two. i did, however, convince myself that i loved a person who never truly, fully existed. because again, i think it's impossible to know.
believe me, i would have sworn up and down and bet my life that no one knew my ex the way i did and how well we knew each other and how in love we were... it's only until i took a step back from the relationship for months and months before i could realize that you can't really ever KNOW an active alcoholic, or even one with some sobriety under their belt.
the recovering alcoholic i dated was DRASTICALLY different from the active alcoholic that my ex is now. i could never, ever compare the two. i did, however, convince myself that i loved a person who never truly, fully existed. because again, i think it's impossible to know.
play the tape all the way thru
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 480
Hi Tricia,
I consider myself "lucky" to have noticed the warning signs prior to marrying or chosing to have children with my exabf. He has struggled with addiction since he was 15. He finally got help while he was in prison. There he went through a year long recovery program. I thought prison would be his bottom.
As of a few months ago his disease has started back up again, and I got out pretty quick.
Your abf may be very different from the "drunk" one. If he works the program the way it's meant to be worked, he may need to put that as his first priority. My question to you is, do you want to go through a life long commitment of recovery, then relapse, recovery, relapse etc. etc. To me that doesn't sound like a very fun or happy way to live, even if you love this man.
Four months isn't that much time to get to know someone. I would consider you and your bf still in the "honeymoon phase" which is supposed to be all rainbows and sunshine. If it's this hard at 4 months, whats it going to be like in 2 years or 5 years?
I consider myself "lucky" to have noticed the warning signs prior to marrying or chosing to have children with my exabf. He has struggled with addiction since he was 15. He finally got help while he was in prison. There he went through a year long recovery program. I thought prison would be his bottom.
As of a few months ago his disease has started back up again, and I got out pretty quick.
Your abf may be very different from the "drunk" one. If he works the program the way it's meant to be worked, he may need to put that as his first priority. My question to you is, do you want to go through a life long commitment of recovery, then relapse, recovery, relapse etc. etc. To me that doesn't sound like a very fun or happy way to live, even if you love this man.
Four months isn't that much time to get to know someone. I would consider you and your bf still in the "honeymoon phase" which is supposed to be all rainbows and sunshine. If it's this hard at 4 months, whats it going to be like in 2 years or 5 years?
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles CA
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The Dual Personality
There is a phenomenon called the "dual personality" of the alcoholic.
It kind of boils down to a way to describe the fact that there are two personas inside an alcoholic: the person when they are sober and the person when they are under the influence of the disease (even dry this can happen).
If you have never seen this man "really" sober, then by the above definition it's not possible to accurately state that you know the real him. You don't know ALL of him. The "real" him is the totality of his entire being.
I knew that if I wanted to be with my xabf, I had to accept the fact that I would never get to have the say in which one of his personas showed up (or failed to) on any given day. What I wanted or needed didn't matter because the disease basically runs the show. It wasn't like I could place a request that he please bring out the sober, lovely, warm, connected, capable man I loved and respected because today we're going to my family's house for dinner and its really important to me. No.
When I fought against this fact, it made my life unmanageable. When I admitted I was powerless over alcohol (and the alcoholic and everything else), my insanity began to abate.
Later I just decided that I didn't want to be partnered with someone who was genuinely not capable of bringing stability and commitment to a relationship. It took me a while to come to believe that he was not going to step up with maturity and reliability. There were many, many times he did and many times that we grew as individuals and together. We had problems at those times, too, but because we were both present, they did not escalate, we would work them out. At those times he would bring everything I wanted in a partner. I believe those were authentic times.
BUT...
...that happiness was ALWAYS finite. It was ALWAYS upended by the selfish, self-seeking and self-centered motives of the dis-eased persona. And then I'd be left standing there: cheated out of a loving companion, overburdened with responsibilities, unwanted, unloved and alone.
There were two of him: the one who loved me and could show it and the one who needed insanity and couldn't be trusted. And if I was going to be with him, I was always going to be dealing with that package.
The real dealbreaker for me was that I was always going to be dealing with it. He declined to do so.
I needed to go through a process before I came to these conclusions.
It kind of boils down to a way to describe the fact that there are two personas inside an alcoholic: the person when they are sober and the person when they are under the influence of the disease (even dry this can happen).
If you have never seen this man "really" sober, then by the above definition it's not possible to accurately state that you know the real him. You don't know ALL of him. The "real" him is the totality of his entire being.
I knew that if I wanted to be with my xabf, I had to accept the fact that I would never get to have the say in which one of his personas showed up (or failed to) on any given day. What I wanted or needed didn't matter because the disease basically runs the show. It wasn't like I could place a request that he please bring out the sober, lovely, warm, connected, capable man I loved and respected because today we're going to my family's house for dinner and its really important to me. No.
When I fought against this fact, it made my life unmanageable. When I admitted I was powerless over alcohol (and the alcoholic and everything else), my insanity began to abate.
Later I just decided that I didn't want to be partnered with someone who was genuinely not capable of bringing stability and commitment to a relationship. It took me a while to come to believe that he was not going to step up with maturity and reliability. There were many, many times he did and many times that we grew as individuals and together. We had problems at those times, too, but because we were both present, they did not escalate, we would work them out. At those times he would bring everything I wanted in a partner. I believe those were authentic times.
BUT...
...that happiness was ALWAYS finite. It was ALWAYS upended by the selfish, self-seeking and self-centered motives of the dis-eased persona. And then I'd be left standing there: cheated out of a loving companion, overburdened with responsibilities, unwanted, unloved and alone.
There were two of him: the one who loved me and could show it and the one who needed insanity and couldn't be trusted. And if I was going to be with him, I was always going to be dealing with that package.
The real dealbreaker for me was that I was always going to be dealing with it. He declined to do so.
I needed to go through a process before I came to these conclusions.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 261
Is this really the way you want to spend the rest of your life, with addiction always being the number 1 focus? Wouldn't you rather have that focus on yourself, on life, on real love?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 261
Later I just decided that I didn't want to be partnered with someone who was genuinely not capable of bringing stability and commitment to a relationship. It took me a while to come to believe that he was not going to step up with maturity and reliability. There were many, many times he did and many times that we grew as individuals and together. We had problems at those times, too, but because we were both present, they did not escalate, we would work them out. At those times he would bring everything I wanted in a partner. I believe those were authentic times.
BUT...
...that happiness was ALWAYS finite. It was ALWAYS upended by the selfish, self-seeking and self-centered motives of the dis-eased persona. And then I'd be left standing there: cheated out of a loving companion, overburdened with responsibilities, unwanted, unloved and alone.
There were two of him: the one who loved me and could show it and the one who needed insanity and couldn't be trusted. And if I was going to be with him, I was always going to be dealing with that package.
BUT...
...that happiness was ALWAYS finite. It was ALWAYS upended by the selfish, self-seeking and self-centered motives of the dis-eased persona. And then I'd be left standing there: cheated out of a loving companion, overburdened with responsibilities, unwanted, unloved and alone.
There were two of him: the one who loved me and could show it and the one who needed insanity and couldn't be trusted. And if I was going to be with him, I was always going to be dealing with that package.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by triciafawn 
the whole 4 months we dated.
Focusing on one's own recovery - instead of obsessing over someone who has stated they don't want the relationship - would probably be helpful.
It's probably likely he will not be the same person when he gets out - do you think he will want to be with someone he chose while he was a practicing alcoholic off his meds?
It may sound harsh, but a good long look at reality is what set me down a path of recovery and peace.
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
I can't give you any advice on your relationship. However, I can give you a glimpse into this recovering alcoholics mind.
[quote]Are you in love with the man or the man you want him to be, that you think he can be? quote]
He He. My teachers always siad I had potential. It wasn't until I got in the program that I was told that potential = doesn't do squat.
After a yeaf and half of sobriety, I still don't know who I am.
That's what I've seen, time and time again. Thank God, I haven't experienced yet.
I can vouch for that. I've changed. I am not the same person I used to be.
One last word. If he does find recovery, and pursues it like I do, it's going to encompass a large part of his life. Most likely the majority of it. I spend a lot of time trying to help others, and it doesn't leave much time for anything else.
[quote]Are you in love with the man or the man you want him to be, that you think he can be? quote]
He He. My teachers always siad I had potential. It wasn't until I got in the program that I was told that potential = doesn't do squat.
they're the only ones that seem to know themselves.
From what I've gathered, he falls off the wagon when he stops working the program
the recovering alcoholic i dated was DRASTICALLY different from the active alcoholic that my ex is now
One last word. If he does find recovery, and pursues it like I do, it's going to encompass a large part of his life. Most likely the majority of it. I spend a lot of time trying to help others, and it doesn't leave much time for anything else.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
It is my experience that no one can truly know someone enough to love them after 4 months, even without the addition of alcoholism. Relationships are way to complicated, people are way too complicated for me to be able to lable what I feel for anyone as "love" after that short a period of time. It might be infatuation. It might be deep caring for another. But I do not think it can be real love as I know it now.
Now this doesn't mean that in the past I haven't done just that. And later come to regret it.
I speak now from a position of having "loved" an alcoholic who seemed to have been everything I wanted in a man, from a position of willfully ignoring the fact that he was an alcoholic because I knew he was a good man and it wouldn't be that bad, I could deal with it. We became engaged within 6 months of meeting. We married a year after that. During that time I willfully ignored all the redflags, all the danger signs because I was "in love" and knew life would be good.
Lord, I wish I had had people pointing out the reality, the facts to me back then! I may not have listened. But maybe I would have. It would have saved me a 4 year marriage that has brought me to the edge of serious financial problems.
On the other hand it would have prevented me from experiencing a great deal of personal growth spurred by the need to deal with my own issues.
I have come to understand that relationships that feel too intense to quickly are likely to be problematic sooner or later. Not always of course but very frequently.
Now this doesn't mean that in the past I haven't done just that. And later come to regret it.
I speak now from a position of having "loved" an alcoholic who seemed to have been everything I wanted in a man, from a position of willfully ignoring the fact that he was an alcoholic because I knew he was a good man and it wouldn't be that bad, I could deal with it. We became engaged within 6 months of meeting. We married a year after that. During that time I willfully ignored all the redflags, all the danger signs because I was "in love" and knew life would be good.
Lord, I wish I had had people pointing out the reality, the facts to me back then! I may not have listened. But maybe I would have. It would have saved me a 4 year marriage that has brought me to the edge of serious financial problems.
On the other hand it would have prevented me from experiencing a great deal of personal growth spurred by the need to deal with my own issues.
I have come to understand that relationships that feel too intense to quickly are likely to be problematic sooner or later. Not always of course but very frequently.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 902
Sorry to say this Triciafawn, but you don't know this man at all.
I have been reading your threads and often find myself confused as to how you could be so in love with someone that you have know for only 4 months. I have been broken up with my xabf for that long and feel like the whole thing just happened. It's no time at all, yet you seem as invested as someone who is coming out of a 20 year marriage with an alcoholic.
I was with my ex for 3.5 years. He drank nightly but I didn't know it for 3 of those years because I didn't live with him. The reality is that I didn't know him at all. I don't know who he was without alcohol because it was likley in his system the whole time. I love the kind, gentle person I knew he was at times, but he didn't show up often in the end.
To be blunt, it seems like your relationship was based on him getting his needs met and not really about loving you. I know that is painful, but that is often the reality.
I think what you have to ask yourself is why you settled for him and why you are so invested in him after such a very short period of time. Perhaps his purpose in your life was to make you face yourself. In many ways I think my ex's purpose was just that. I paid attention. I'm not without issues, no one is, but I'm understanding myself a lot better and what is acceptable to me now that we've broken up.
I have been reading your threads and often find myself confused as to how you could be so in love with someone that you have know for only 4 months. I have been broken up with my xabf for that long and feel like the whole thing just happened. It's no time at all, yet you seem as invested as someone who is coming out of a 20 year marriage with an alcoholic.
I was with my ex for 3.5 years. He drank nightly but I didn't know it for 3 of those years because I didn't live with him. The reality is that I didn't know him at all. I don't know who he was without alcohol because it was likley in his system the whole time. I love the kind, gentle person I knew he was at times, but he didn't show up often in the end.
To be blunt, it seems like your relationship was based on him getting his needs met and not really about loving you. I know that is painful, but that is often the reality.
I think what you have to ask yourself is why you settled for him and why you are so invested in him after such a very short period of time. Perhaps his purpose in your life was to make you face yourself. In many ways I think my ex's purpose was just that. I paid attention. I'm not without issues, no one is, but I'm understanding myself a lot better and what is acceptable to me now that we've broken up.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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From where I sit, the real issue here is not whether you knew the "real him" or not. (That's a pretty subjective concept, anyway. People change over time, so knowing who he is at any given point in his life doesn't mean you "know" him, IMO)
I was with my husband for 20 years. Did I know the "real him?" At some times, yes, at others, no. Again, that's really not the point. As I see it, the question is why is it so important to you to convince a bunch of strangers on the internet and YOURSELF that you knew the "real him?"
It took many months of honest reflection, but I now realize that the person I didn't really know was myself. It was way too painful to admit that I had issues that I hadn't dealt with, so I chose to put all my focus on him and his problems. Much easier to distract myself with him, than to honestly and deeply look inside.
For me, it took a lot of pain and suffering before I reached MY bottom and got brave enough to look inside myself. Maybe you haven't reached the point in your suffering where you absolutely HAVE TO start looking at yourself. Maybe you're still content with focusing on him. We get there when we get there.
L
I was with my husband for 20 years. Did I know the "real him?" At some times, yes, at others, no. Again, that's really not the point. As I see it, the question is why is it so important to you to convince a bunch of strangers on the internet and YOURSELF that you knew the "real him?"
It took many months of honest reflection, but I now realize that the person I didn't really know was myself. It was way too painful to admit that I had issues that I hadn't dealt with, so I chose to put all my focus on him and his problems. Much easier to distract myself with him, than to honestly and deeply look inside.
For me, it took a lot of pain and suffering before I reached MY bottom and got brave enough to look inside myself. Maybe you haven't reached the point in your suffering where you absolutely HAVE TO start looking at yourself. Maybe you're still content with focusing on him. We get there when we get there.
L
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: looking for the sun in cold MN
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
From where I sit, the real issue here is not whether you knew the "real him" or not. (That's a pretty subjective concept, anyway. People change over time, so knowing who he is at any given point in his life doesn't mean you "know" him, IMO)
I was with my husband for 20 years. Did I know the "real him?" At some times, yes, at others, no. Again, that's really not the point. As I see it, the question is why is it so important to you to convince a bunch of strangers on the internet and YOURSELF that you knew the "real him?"
It took many months of honest reflection, but I now realize that the person I didn't really know was myself. It was way too painful to admit that I had issues that I hadn't dealt with, so I chose to put all my focus on him and his problems. Much easier to distract myself with him, than to honestly and deeply look inside.
For me, it took a lot of pain and suffering before I reached MY bottom and got brave enough to look inside myself. Maybe you haven't reached the point in your suffering where you absolutely HAVE TO start looking at yourself. Maybe you're still content with focusing on him. We get there when we get there.
L
I was with my husband for 20 years. Did I know the "real him?" At some times, yes, at others, no. Again, that's really not the point. As I see it, the question is why is it so important to you to convince a bunch of strangers on the internet and YOURSELF that you knew the "real him?"
It took many months of honest reflection, but I now realize that the person I didn't really know was myself. It was way too painful to admit that I had issues that I hadn't dealt with, so I chose to put all my focus on him and his problems. Much easier to distract myself with him, than to honestly and deeply look inside.
For me, it took a lot of pain and suffering before I reached MY bottom and got brave enough to look inside myself. Maybe you haven't reached the point in your suffering where you absolutely HAVE TO start looking at yourself. Maybe you're still content with focusing on him. We get there when we get there.
L
Nothing's changed except me. I will not put myself into the middle of his chaos again. I thought I knew what was going on, I thought if he would just quit drinking I'd have the man I married back, I thought if I could only convince him to work a program. . . Now I get it when someone like LTD posts a comment like the one above. I do believe I was focusing way too much attention and energy on my AH and not much at all on myself. I knew I had issues from childhood- and I thought I was working on them with my counselor, but what happened 8 months ago when he left opened my eyes like nothing else had. I was finally ready to hear and really see the reality. And I think someone posted a comment on another thread about reading Melody Beattie's book "Codependent No More" 3x before really getting it. I remember the first time I read it 2 years ago and being completely annoyed with it. Now- it means so much more.
I do believe we all get there in our own time. Thank God I am where I am right now. It's harder than anything I've ever experienced, but I know there will be light at the end of the tunnel.
A side note- yesterday I had a plumber over- a recovering alcoholic 20 years sober. I had to let him know what is going on- that AH left, that I am getting the house ready to sell and don't want to spend a lot of money on fixing it up. His comment- Your husband did you a favor. That coming from a recovering alcoholic. I actually agree with him now. It's taken me a long time to get here.
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 196
I thought my husband was a frat guy when I first met him. When I got to know him a little better, I discovered that he had a good heart and a great family. His parents had been married for over 40 years. During our relationship, drinking was just social and a fun way to hang out friends. I guess that I did not realize how progressive alcholism is or how much he truly was drinking until I got married. I did not realize until I married him how much debt or that he did not always paid his bills.
I have had to really rely on God just to give my husband enough grace to become a better person. Sometimes I wonder if his identity and his best friend is really alcohol.
I have had to really rely on God just to give my husband enough grace to become a better person. Sometimes I wonder if his identity and his best friend is really alcohol.
Living in a Pinkful Place
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 7,545
It is not my place to say whether or not you "know" your boyfriend or not in the 4 months you were together -
Just wanted to say this one thing - I am almost 44 yrs old and I have "lived" with me all my life and I am still getting to "know" things about me. It's like every day I discover something new about me. Something I like, something I don't like.
For me - true knowledge takes time, effort and exploring of the true inner person. I can't know me in 4 months so for me how can I know someone else? I do have connections with others. But it just takes me time.
Just wanted to say this one thing - I am almost 44 yrs old and I have "lived" with me all my life and I am still getting to "know" things about me. It's like every day I discover something new about me. Something I like, something I don't like.
For me - true knowledge takes time, effort and exploring of the true inner person. I can't know me in 4 months so for me how can I know someone else? I do have connections with others. But it just takes me time.
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 46
this did it!
quoting anvillhead's response to another thread:
this is exactly what I am going through! these words sting, so bad! but you are SO right. I know you guys have been telling me this in just about every response to me on my threads, but this one is the one that stuck.
you guys are worth more than thousands and thousands of dollars some people spend in therapy.....
you don't miss HIM, per se, you MISS the GOOD TIMES. THE PAST. THE MEMORIES. it's the same thing addicts run into, the euphoric sense of recall when it was all good..........completely excluding all the crap and drama and heartache that went with it. for me as an addict when i get hit with thoughts i have to PLAY THE TAPE ALL THE WAY THRU TO THE END, to the icky bad stuff part. there is a REASON why he is NOT in your life right now. cuz of the icky bad stuff. cuz it didn't work out. cuz of that nasty @ss thing known as addiction. the man you want to call does not exist........he's a ghost, he's gone, like last friday's dinner - done, digested, and removed.
you guys are worth more than thousands and thousands of dollars some people spend in therapy.....
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Originally Posted by triciafawn
you guys are worth more than thousands and thousands of dollars some people spend in therapy.....
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