Just shut up and follow directions for once in your miserable life!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
justanothrdrunk,
I know this is a hard situation. But I found it freeing to be able to be honest about my sisters conditions (yeah, there were two) with other people. Just to be able to shine a light on the situation and say, "I love them, but if they continue on their current path they will likely not last very much longer" felt sad and painful but also felt right & honest. And my friends & family felt the same way about me being so candid....they were so busy tiptoeing around the issues that any sort of honesty about it was just shocking to them.
There will always be people who cannot see inside your heart and therefore cannot understand that you're not saying things like this in a flip or malicious way. Often, not always, these are people who have never been through a spiralling, tragic relationship with an addict, and so have no clue what your heart is up against.
But YOU know how you feel. That's the important part here, imho. Take care of your own recovery, and do what you feel is right.......what you might be able to look back on later, and say, "I did the best I could while still honoring myself." You have yourself to look after, and live with, long after another alcoholic chooses to self-destruct....take care of that future you.
Hugs to you
I know this is a hard situation. But I found it freeing to be able to be honest about my sisters conditions (yeah, there were two) with other people. Just to be able to shine a light on the situation and say, "I love them, but if they continue on their current path they will likely not last very much longer" felt sad and painful but also felt right & honest. And my friends & family felt the same way about me being so candid....they were so busy tiptoeing around the issues that any sort of honesty about it was just shocking to them.
There will always be people who cannot see inside your heart and therefore cannot understand that you're not saying things like this in a flip or malicious way. Often, not always, these are people who have never been through a spiralling, tragic relationship with an addict, and so have no clue what your heart is up against.
But YOU know how you feel. That's the important part here, imho. Take care of your own recovery, and do what you feel is right.......what you might be able to look back on later, and say, "I did the best I could while still honoring myself." You have yourself to look after, and live with, long after another alcoholic chooses to self-destruct....take care of that future you.
Hugs to you
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
I DIDN'T SORT THRU EVERYTHING EVERYONE'S WRITTEN YET
We can't fix anyone else if, we still have work to do on ourselves.
The best thing to be is a walking Big Book. If, we don't have a sense of serenity and spirituality in our own lives, no one will want what we have either!
We can't fix anyone else if, we still have work to do on ourselves.
The best thing to be is a walking Big Book. If, we don't have a sense of serenity and spirituality in our own lives, no one will want what we have either!
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000 
W can't fix anyone else if, we still have work to do on ourselves.
But you are correct... be an example is the best way to help others.
Retired Pro Drunk
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
I've always been a "tell it like I see it" kind of guy.
Just last night we (me and my drunky/druggie pals) were talking when someone shared about how her 16 yo daughter was distraught over something with her teeth and her braces or whatever.
She explained that she always has to handle that kind of thing with her kids because her husband doesn't validate feelings, etc.
I'm of the opinion that there comes a time when we've put up with enough nonsense (not that feelings are "nonsense," I just can't think of a better way to put it) and you need to suck it up, shut up, and do what needs to be done.
This attitude may not equate well to my friend's situation with her daughter. I wasn't there. But it got me thinking. Life's not perfect and we all have to deal with it.
When you're ready to take proper action, let me know, and I'll do everything in my power to help you out. Know what I mean?
Just last night we (me and my drunky/druggie pals) were talking when someone shared about how her 16 yo daughter was distraught over something with her teeth and her braces or whatever.
She explained that she always has to handle that kind of thing with her kids because her husband doesn't validate feelings, etc.
I'm of the opinion that there comes a time when we've put up with enough nonsense (not that feelings are "nonsense," I just can't think of a better way to put it) and you need to suck it up, shut up, and do what needs to be done.
This attitude may not equate well to my friend's situation with her daughter. I wasn't there. But it got me thinking. Life's not perfect and we all have to deal with it.
When you're ready to take proper action, let me know, and I'll do everything in my power to help you out. Know what I mean?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by miavin2
is that a bad thing or a good thing for you denny ?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
A reminder from the management
- For those of you who are into the 12 step way of recovery, the books say that we share our experience, strength and hope. Nowhere in any of the literature does it say that we are allowed to disguise insult, degradation and abuse under the cover of "tough love"
- If you are sharing _anything_ other than your personal experience you are giving advice. According to the laws of the country under which this website operates only licensed health care professionals are allowed to give advice. If you are _not_ so licensed then I'll take off the "Kid gloves" and tell you to shut up and follow directions.
- Here's some more "no gloves" and telling it like it is directions. If _you_ happen to have been so deep in denial that you needed somebody to insult and abuse you in order to get you involved in recovery, well that's a shame. If you then go off and think that somehow that gives you the right to insult and abuse somebody else, it's no longer a shame. It's arrogant.
- The only One that can look into another person's soul and determine if they need "tough love" is their own Higher Power. You are not a higher power, therefore you have no business going around abusing and insulting people under the cover of "tough love".
In summary: People in this forum will be treated with kindness, respect and compassion. That's the rules. Now shut up and follow them.
Did I sufficiently remove the "Kid gloves"? Or do I need to add more "tough love" to the above explanation?
Mike
Moderator, SoberRecovery
- For those of you who are into the 12 step way of recovery, the books say that we share our experience, strength and hope. Nowhere in any of the literature does it say that we are allowed to disguise insult, degradation and abuse under the cover of "tough love"
- If you are sharing _anything_ other than your personal experience you are giving advice. According to the laws of the country under which this website operates only licensed health care professionals are allowed to give advice. If you are _not_ so licensed then I'll take off the "Kid gloves" and tell you to shut up and follow directions.
- Here's some more "no gloves" and telling it like it is directions. If _you_ happen to have been so deep in denial that you needed somebody to insult and abuse you in order to get you involved in recovery, well that's a shame. If you then go off and think that somehow that gives you the right to insult and abuse somebody else, it's no longer a shame. It's arrogant.
- The only One that can look into another person's soul and determine if they need "tough love" is their own Higher Power. You are not a higher power, therefore you have no business going around abusing and insulting people under the cover of "tough love".
In summary: People in this forum will be treated with kindness, respect and compassion. That's the rules. Now shut up and follow them.
Did I sufficiently remove the "Kid gloves"? Or do I need to add more "tough love" to the above explanation?
Mike
Moderator, SoberRecovery
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
I am really disturbed by the apparent equation of "tough love" with "abusing and insulting" people. Now, I certainly understand that people may not particularly like the phrase "tough love," and I am also aware that there are plenty of people out there who use the "tough love" excuse for mistreating others or for getting out of doing 12th Step work when the opportunity presents itself to them.
However, insofar as "tough love" means love that incorporates (as necessary) detachment, acceptance and the refusal to protect others from the truth or from facing the natural consequences of their own choices and behaviors, I personally find it to be absolutely necessary to good, successful recovery -- both my own and that of people in program with whom I work. In fact, I would have to say that I personally experience "tough love" as being the boundary-setting, self-protecting, willing-to-speak-the truth-even-when-it's-uncomfortable-and/or-risky side of true, respectful love...and, as far as I can tell, any "love" that doesn't, if and when necessary, include those aspects, is in reality just some form of self-serving, manipulative codependency masquerading as love.
None of this means that I go around insulting or abusing people, even when they do things that are hurtful, dangerous, destructive and/or unhealthy to themselves, to others and/or to me. (I mean, it is my belief that people who do those kind of things are acting out of woundedness, so it is hardly helpful to wound them further unnecessarily.) But it does mean that I say what I need to say and do what I need to do to protect myself (or any truly dependent others) and that I do not deny, avoid, or disguise the truth when I find myself in a position where it is, in fact, my business to talk about it (like when I am working with a sponsee, with someone who actively solicits advice, or when I am trying to work through a problem with the goal of finding a solution).
It also means that sometimes people who are used to being able to and think they can manipulate or intimidate others from speaking the truth or who just really don't want or don't expect to have to hear it (regardless of what they may say) are sometimes going to feel / act hurt, abused and/or insulted. As long as I know that I have not been harsher than I needed to be to get my point across, those feelings are about them and are their responsibility -- they are not about me, nor are they my responsibility. (As far as I can tell, this is pretty basic Al Anon here!) And my personal response to them or anyone else trying to "blame" me for their discomfort is pretty simple: If it is really going to cause you (general "you") a problem to have anyone speak honestly and truthfully (in a way that is not deliberately or unnecessarily hurtful) about your behavior, then the solution to that problem is for you to modify your behavior -- not for you to try to silence others. The disease of alcoholism has enforced denial and silence on way too many for way too long.
freya
However, insofar as "tough love" means love that incorporates (as necessary) detachment, acceptance and the refusal to protect others from the truth or from facing the natural consequences of their own choices and behaviors, I personally find it to be absolutely necessary to good, successful recovery -- both my own and that of people in program with whom I work. In fact, I would have to say that I personally experience "tough love" as being the boundary-setting, self-protecting, willing-to-speak-the truth-even-when-it's-uncomfortable-and/or-risky side of true, respectful love...and, as far as I can tell, any "love" that doesn't, if and when necessary, include those aspects, is in reality just some form of self-serving, manipulative codependency masquerading as love.
None of this means that I go around insulting or abusing people, even when they do things that are hurtful, dangerous, destructive and/or unhealthy to themselves, to others and/or to me. (I mean, it is my belief that people who do those kind of things are acting out of woundedness, so it is hardly helpful to wound them further unnecessarily.) But it does mean that I say what I need to say and do what I need to do to protect myself (or any truly dependent others) and that I do not deny, avoid, or disguise the truth when I find myself in a position where it is, in fact, my business to talk about it (like when I am working with a sponsee, with someone who actively solicits advice, or when I am trying to work through a problem with the goal of finding a solution).
It also means that sometimes people who are used to being able to and think they can manipulate or intimidate others from speaking the truth or who just really don't want or don't expect to have to hear it (regardless of what they may say) are sometimes going to feel / act hurt, abused and/or insulted. As long as I know that I have not been harsher than I needed to be to get my point across, those feelings are about them and are their responsibility -- they are not about me, nor are they my responsibility. (As far as I can tell, this is pretty basic Al Anon here!) And my personal response to them or anyone else trying to "blame" me for their discomfort is pretty simple: If it is really going to cause you (general "you") a problem to have anyone speak honestly and truthfully (in a way that is not deliberately or unnecessarily hurtful) about your behavior, then the solution to that problem is for you to modify your behavior -- not for you to try to silence others. The disease of alcoholism has enforced denial and silence on way too many for way too long.
freya
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
OK, now I'm thoroughly confused. I've even gone back and re-read the thread in it's entirety to try and figure this out.
Here's what I'm confused about. I don't know why a reminder about the rules of this forum was necessary in this instance. I don't see any evidence of people insulting anyone on this thread--only a discussion about semantics. Phrases like "tough love" and "kid glove" can and are defined differently depending on the individual. So perhaps it's best to avoid using phrases like this in the first place.
My idea of "tough love" is similar to Freya's. Tough love to me is loving someone (or myself) enough to set boundaries to protect myself, not allowing someone else's behavior to affect me in a negative way, or walking away from a person who is toxic to me. I can still love them, but from a safe distance.
I believe in honest, direct communication so there's less room for misinterpretation, but that's something entirely different from hurling insults at people. For example, if someone asks me how their drinking impacts me negatively I will openly share my feelings and the impacts the abuse of alcohol has on my life. That's how I define direct communication or a direct approach. If on the other hand, I tell the person in question that he/she is worthless or a drunken bum then that's hurling insults and I'm out of line.
I define a "kid-glove" approach as one that's less than honest, as in someone chooses to skirt around an issue that's uncomfortable for me (or them), attempts to soften the truth by twisting it in some way, or that I'm too fragile to handle the truth. I define a softer approach as simply "I'm here for you," "I understand how you're feeling, or "I'm sorry you're hurting."
So when I say I prefer a direct approach, I'm saying I want the truth without padding but also without insults. And when I say I sometimes need a softer approach, I'm saying that I need reassurrance from others that things will get better when I'm feeling particularly vulnerable. And when I say, I needed both to turn my situation around--well, that was just what I needed.
Here's what I'm confused about. I don't know why a reminder about the rules of this forum was necessary in this instance. I don't see any evidence of people insulting anyone on this thread--only a discussion about semantics. Phrases like "tough love" and "kid glove" can and are defined differently depending on the individual. So perhaps it's best to avoid using phrases like this in the first place.
My idea of "tough love" is similar to Freya's. Tough love to me is loving someone (or myself) enough to set boundaries to protect myself, not allowing someone else's behavior to affect me in a negative way, or walking away from a person who is toxic to me. I can still love them, but from a safe distance.
I believe in honest, direct communication so there's less room for misinterpretation, but that's something entirely different from hurling insults at people. For example, if someone asks me how their drinking impacts me negatively I will openly share my feelings and the impacts the abuse of alcohol has on my life. That's how I define direct communication or a direct approach. If on the other hand, I tell the person in question that he/she is worthless or a drunken bum then that's hurling insults and I'm out of line.
I define a "kid-glove" approach as one that's less than honest, as in someone chooses to skirt around an issue that's uncomfortable for me (or them), attempts to soften the truth by twisting it in some way, or that I'm too fragile to handle the truth. I define a softer approach as simply "I'm here for you," "I understand how you're feeling, or "I'm sorry you're hurting."
So when I say I prefer a direct approach, I'm saying I want the truth without padding but also without insults. And when I say I sometimes need a softer approach, I'm saying that I need reassurrance from others that things will get better when I'm feeling particularly vulnerable. And when I say, I needed both to turn my situation around--well, that was just what I needed.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
Here's what I'm confused about. I don't know why a reminder about the rules of this forum was necessary in this instance. I don't see any evidence of people insulting anyone on this thread--only a discussion about semantics. Phrases like "tough love" and "kid glove" can and are defined differently depending on the individual. So perhaps it's best to avoid using phrases like this in the first place.
I was unaware it is forbidden to do anything other than share my experiences also. Does that mean no suggestions on how situations can be handled because that is forbidden advice?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,017
I had to read it through again too, for the same reason as you FD. I wasn't interpreting tough love as insulting someone at all, the way I see tough love is just telling it how it is, without the prettying it up.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
I see this as a forum for support of family and friends of addicts, not for advice on how to get the addict clean. Over and over the talk is about keeping the focus on me. If I want to read about what worked for the addict, I visit the alcoholism site.
Otherwise the focus is right back where I don't want it to be: me somehow getting the addict sober.
Sorry for the hijack.
Otherwise the focus is right back where I don't want it to be: me somehow getting the addict sober.
Sorry for the hijack.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by FormerDoormat
OK, now I'm thoroughly confused. I've even gone back and re-read the thread in it's entirety to try and figure this out.....
As a rule, we try to make the absolute minimum changes to the material here on SR. Sometimes, people just behave in wholy inapropriate ways and we have no other choice. Also as a rule, we try to avoid singling out people in a thread, and just post the ocassional nudge or outright shove when individuals are unable to be respectful with each other.
In a perfect world, I would send PM's to every single person on this forum and get to know everybody on a personal basis. In the real world, SR has over 20 thousand members, and as many as 1000 online at the same time during the busy part of the day. There's just way too many people. We have emergencies every single day. Somewhere in the SR world, right now as you are reading this, there are spouses who are trying to escape a physically dangerous environment, depressed people thinking of suicide, grieving people who just lost a child or other family member, and innumerable other hardships that life throws our way.
Those of us who volunteer our time here focus first on those who are in physical danger, followed by those who are faced with a horrible personal tragedy. These people take a _huge_ amount of time, and even more so over the web. None of us get paid for this, and all of us have jobs, families and our lives to deal with.
The occasional loud-mouth that roars thru here with an attitude is just not that important. We're not going to take the time to PM them and try to teach them the basic skills of interpersonal relationships that they should have learned in kindergarden.
For that reason you will ocassionally see threads that don't make sense. Like this one. Because we have been forced to yank out a few posts, ban one or more offensive people, and rush back to the primary reason SR exists; To help people in pain.
Mike
Moderator, SR.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,322
Thanks for all you do, Mike. Please thank all the wonderful volunteers for me also. I can't imagine all the peace and love you've brought to so many people. I failed to realize how much time and thought must go into a site such as this one, and still be run with such dignity and grace and most importantly, love. In great appreciation,
PT
PT
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