Can we pls talk about Chapter 8 in the Big BK?
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Can we pls talk about Chapter 8 in the Big BK?
Ok, i have read the chapter entitled To the Wives once before but I just read it again. I am sorry, but anyone who can execute the advice offered in that chapter has got to be a saint and not of this world. It is possible that I am not feeling 100% today and I am projecting, but really! Is it possible to do what it says without a gazzillion years in Al Anon?? Is it possible to keep ones emotions so in check that one can happily live with active alcoholism? Is it possible and better yet is it reasonable?
Now I know progress not perfection is a good slogan and no one is expected to be perfect but I get the feeling that you have to be a martyr to get through what the chapter outlines.
Here is the link:
Big Book On Line
Now I know progress not perfection is a good slogan and no one is expected to be perfect but I get the feeling that you have to be a martyr to get through what the chapter outlines.
Here is the link:
Big Book On Line
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One thing I remind myself....it was written by alcoholics (how long their recovery at this point,I do not know and Bill Wilson,although he had many "pluses" it seems to me that especially in this area(women),he never did achieve "sobriety") for alcoholics. The alcoholic thinking something creeps out,IMHO. I noticed this at "family night" at my sister's IOP rehab. with several of the counselors,too. Like my codie "automatic thinking",I think it is human nature to return to what feels "natural" if I am not striving toward a something healthier, because what became normal-feeling was not. I imagine it is the same for alcoholics;even those who have been in recovery for year. jmho
I guess we all need to strive for a healthy balance.
Take this or leave it,as you wish.......again: jmo
p.s. I believe this pre-dates the advent of AlAnon,and I can understand why AlAnon came to be. While there are some valid points, I think it gears itself towards those whose AH is actively trying to repair the damage the the alcoholism did to the family/marriage. Naturally, the A's that wrote it would feel as this writing indicates. As someone else also pointed out, times are different and many women now are not as financially tied,etc. to the AH.
I guess we all need to strive for a healthy balance.
Take this or leave it,as you wish.......again: jmo
p.s. I believe this pre-dates the advent of AlAnon,and I can understand why AlAnon came to be. While there are some valid points, I think it gears itself towards those whose AH is actively trying to repair the damage the the alcoholism did to the family/marriage. Naturally, the A's that wrote it would feel as this writing indicates. As someone else also pointed out, times are different and many women now are not as financially tied,etc. to the AH.
play the tape all the way thru
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by Barbara52 
I read part of it once. Had to quit because my gag reflex kicked in. I figure its advice written for a different type of woman in a different time.
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I hear ya, and I'm with ya
Originally Posted by Pick-a-name
One thing I remind myself....it was written by alcoholics (how long their recovery at this point,I do not know and Bill Wilson,although he had many "pluses" it seems to me that especially in this area(women),he never did achieve "sobriety") for alcoholics. The alcoholic thinking something creeps out,IMHO. I noticed this at "family night" at my sister's IOP rehab. with several of the counselors,too. Like my codie "automatic thinking",I think it is human nature to return to what feels "natural" if I am not striving toward a something healthier, because what became normal-feeling was not. I imagine it is the same for alcoholics;even those who have been in recovery for year. jmho
I guess we all need to strive for a healthy balance.
Take this or leave it,as you wish.......again: jmo
p.s. I believe this pre-dates the advent of AlAnon,and I can understand why AlAnon came to be. While there are some valid points, I think it gears itself towards those whose AH is actively trying to repair the damage the the alcoholism did to the family/marriage. Naturally, the A's that wrote it would feel as this writing indicates. As someone else also pointed out, times are different and many women now are not as financially tied,etc. to the AH.
I guess we all need to strive for a healthy balance.
Take this or leave it,as you wish.......again: jmo
p.s. I believe this pre-dates the advent of AlAnon,and I can understand why AlAnon came to be. While there are some valid points, I think it gears itself towards those whose AH is actively trying to repair the damage the the alcoholism did to the family/marriage. Naturally, the A's that wrote it would feel as this writing indicates. As someone else also pointed out, times are different and many women now are not as financially tied,etc. to the AH.
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!Whew!
Originally Posted by anvilhead
have to remember, most of this was written back in the 40s....at that time AA was exclusively MEN, and then much more so than now wives had a role and were expected to keep to it. and divorce wasn't the option it is today.....
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Actually, Chapter 8 was not written by the alcoholics. It was written by the wives in 1939.
Like all of the Big Book, it has that old-school language, which can be sort of creepy. I just look past that to find what I like and leave the rest.
Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, is sometimes more accessible (and therefore useful).
For me, Chapters 8 and 9 have been very useful. I'm an arrogant, smug, self-righteous and dominating Al-anon. I have all the other Al-anon traits as well but for someone who is much more prone to use my words to degrade another person, it gave me a lot to think about. For many people, the effects of another person's alcoholism taught them to creep silently and never speak up. I rebelled and became an extremely "outspoken" person, virtually unable to listen (to really hear) another person's point of view -- ESPECIALLY if they were expressing criticism of me, even constructive criticism.
Having done my Fourth Step, I can say all of this without any self-loathing. I had to use all of those traits to save myself from the family disease. I didn't have any other tools. But now I do, thanks to working program for my OWN recovery.
I think the usefulness of ANY suggestions only go so far as the individual situation will allow. In my case, the alcoholics on whom I practiced some of the suggestions from Chapter 8 are not intrinsically mean, nasty people. I know some of those alcoholics, too, and I use different tools with them. Like staying away entirely...
Like all of the Big Book, it has that old-school language, which can be sort of creepy. I just look past that to find what I like and leave the rest.
Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, is sometimes more accessible (and therefore useful).
For me, Chapters 8 and 9 have been very useful. I'm an arrogant, smug, self-righteous and dominating Al-anon. I have all the other Al-anon traits as well but for someone who is much more prone to use my words to degrade another person, it gave me a lot to think about. For many people, the effects of another person's alcoholism taught them to creep silently and never speak up. I rebelled and became an extremely "outspoken" person, virtually unable to listen (to really hear) another person's point of view -- ESPECIALLY if they were expressing criticism of me, even constructive criticism.
Having done my Fourth Step, I can say all of this without any self-loathing. I had to use all of those traits to save myself from the family disease. I didn't have any other tools. But now I do, thanks to working program for my OWN recovery.
I think the usefulness of ANY suggestions only go so far as the individual situation will allow. In my case, the alcoholics on whom I practiced some of the suggestions from Chapter 8 are not intrinsically mean, nasty people. I know some of those alcoholics, too, and I use different tools with them. Like staying away entirely...
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My biggest issue with chapter 8 is the implication that nagging (or in my case yelling "there's the door a**hole, use it" LOL) can cause an A to drink. I can assure you that my AH drank every day, nothing I said or didn't say affected his consumption one bit.
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Originally Posted by hadenoughnow
My biggest issue with chapter 8 is the implication that nagging (or in my case yelling "there's the door a**hole, use it" LOL) can cause an A to drink. I can assure you that my AH drank every day, nothing I said or didn't say affected his consumption one bit.
Also,thanks abcd.... for the information. I learned a lot.
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It's kinda like the devil telling me how to stay out of hell. Bill Wilson stopped drinking, but it's a well documented fact he was a "traditional" male and womanizer. 'nuf said for me.
As much as I will never understand what it's like to BE an addict, the addict in my life will never (if he tried) understanding what it's like to be ME, the non-addict.
To each her own, but think about it - why wasn't it written to "The Spouse?" There were women alcoholics then, too. :-)
As much as I will never understand what it's like to BE an addict, the addict in my life will never (if he tried) understanding what it's like to be ME, the non-addict.
To each her own, but think about it - why wasn't it written to "The Spouse?" There were women alcoholics then, too. :-)
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You are very gracious ABC. Thank you.
Originally Posted by abcdefg
Actually, Chapter 8 was not written by the alcoholics. It was written by the wives in 1939.
Like all of the Big Book, it has that old-school language, which can be sort of creepy. I just look past that to find what I like and leave the rest.
Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, is sometimes more accessible (and therefore useful).
For me, Chapters 8 and 9 have been very useful. I'm an arrogant, smug, self-righteous and dominating Al-anon. I have all the other Al-anon traits as well but for someone who is much more prone to use my words to degrade another person, it gave me a lot to think about. For many people, the effects of another person's alcoholism taught them to creep silently and never speak up. I rebelled and became an extremely "outspoken" person, virtually unable to listen (to really hear) another person's point of view -- ESPECIALLY if they were expressing criticism of me, even constructive criticism.
Having done my Fourth Step, I can say all of this without any self-loathing. I had to use all of those traits to save myself from the family disease. I didn't have any other tools. But now I do, thanks to working program for my OWN recovery.
I think the usefulness of ANY suggestions only go so far as the individual situation will allow. In my case, the alcoholics on whom I practiced some of the suggestions from Chapter 8 are not intrinsically mean, nasty people. I know some of those alcoholics, too, and I use different tools with them. Like staying away entirely...
Like all of the Big Book, it has that old-school language, which can be sort of creepy. I just look past that to find what I like and leave the rest.
Chapter 9, The Family Afterward, is sometimes more accessible (and therefore useful).
For me, Chapters 8 and 9 have been very useful. I'm an arrogant, smug, self-righteous and dominating Al-anon. I have all the other Al-anon traits as well but for someone who is much more prone to use my words to degrade another person, it gave me a lot to think about. For many people, the effects of another person's alcoholism taught them to creep silently and never speak up. I rebelled and became an extremely "outspoken" person, virtually unable to listen (to really hear) another person's point of view -- ESPECIALLY if they were expressing criticism of me, even constructive criticism.
Having done my Fourth Step, I can say all of this without any self-loathing. I had to use all of those traits to save myself from the family disease. I didn't have any other tools. But now I do, thanks to working program for my OWN recovery.
I think the usefulness of ANY suggestions only go so far as the individual situation will allow. In my case, the alcoholics on whom I practiced some of the suggestions from Chapter 8 are not intrinsically mean, nasty people. I know some of those alcoholics, too, and I use different tools with them. Like staying away entirely...
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I just read that chapter a couple of days ago. I thought what self respecting woman would put up with that crap- then I realized that I do.
I think that chapter was for a time when woman didn't have other options available to them. It made me sick as well and I was unable to read anymore.
However, it did make me start to think-just not in the way that it was intended to.
I think that chapter was for a time when woman didn't have other options available to them. It made me sick as well and I was unable to read anymore.
However, it did make me start to think-just not in the way that it was intended to.
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