Shivaya

Okay, after being gone for a week and seeking counseling, my AH told me this morning that he has a 7 page list of all the things he is not happy about with me. I told him that I have been seeing a counselor and going to Alanon mtgs., and that I am learning things about myself and him that I did not see before (or chose not to see).

Now, he says that these things have been bothering him for many, many years, and I asked him why he's never said anything, except to complain a few times about me paying no attention to him, and a lot of times at how unhappy he is about my weight. Did I do wrong? Probably. I guess I should have really taken his complaints seriously, and worked on them. I did not. I take responsibility for that.

I told him I am open minded, I can take whatever he has to say to me, that If he's seen some behaviors that he is not happy with, please tell me, and if I agree with them, I have no problem acknowledging and working on them.

So here we go. 1. I am controlling. Told him yes, I've just discovered this, I admit this and I am working on ways to not try and control everything.

2. I am not nurturing to him, but I am nurturing in every other relationship I have. Yes, I admit this. I am nurturing to my children, friends, family, all except him. Still trying to figure out why I have neglected him. I did point out that he has not been nurturing me, and he did agree this was true.

3. I have no respect for him and men in general (he says I'm just like my mom, who really, growing up, I saw her speak badly about every man she ever dated, how they are stupid, incompetent, blah, blah, blah). So...just because this is what I see growing up, does it really mean that I am that stupid not to acknowledge how great my husband is for providing for our family, being dedicated to his family.

4. My weight. He has definitely spoken up about this. I know how he feels. I try to eat right and exercise, and that's really all I can do.

So......he says he's been so unhappy for so long, and rather than speaking up and confronting the things about me that make him unhappy, he has kept them inside, and escaped through DRINKING excessively. He says he did not want to hurt my feelings so he decided to internalize it all, and drink to escape.

At first I thought, oh I am so sorry that you were not totally honest with me, why didn't you just keep on me and encourage me to work on certain things? He says he guesses he's not a good communicator.

I told him that when you love and care about someone, you are supposed to support them and enourage them to be better. I mentioned that I have been so worried about his drinking for so long, and that I have always been honest with him, that I think he needs professional help to stop the drinking, because I do care for him. I certainly have not ignored his drinking, and kept all my feelings inside for fear of "hurting his feelings".

Okay, am I totally insane? What is happening here? I know that I have faults, and I truly genuinely am working on them. I know I'm a work in progress. But I really did not realize that I was that bad. How could I be so stupid, to think that I am such a great person. Oh no, wait, I am a great person, just not a great wife.

Ugh, I need to figure out why not......

Anybody have any comments/suggestions?

Shivaya

Shivaya

What is going on here?

Barbara52

Sounds like he's found yet another way to make you the problem rather than his alcoholism and behaviors.

What is he doing about his alcoholism?

ToughChoices

Shivaya,

I am so sorry that you're in the middle of such a difficult situation! He sounds like a genuinely confused and unhappy man, in the throes of some truly traumatic realizations about himself. What a miserable place to be! It seems that he's in the middle of some sort of obscene "which came first" game involving your troubled relationship and his drinking problem.

Did your husband start drinking because you quit nurturing him, or did you stop nurturing him because his drinking seemed childish and irresponsible? He's trying to act like he's discovered the answer to this question, but I imagine there were years of very complicated interplay. This is not a simple question, but, even if it were, I'm not sure that establishing who's to blame for the current state of affairs would begin the work of repairing those affairs.

Don't let him convince you that you are the problem here. You can admit that you've both played a role, and that you are willing to recognize your shortcomings. He seems capable only of recognizing the shortcomings of others. That is an adolescent mindset.

You are an adult with successful friendships, loving children, and an optimistic outlook. He is sad, sullen, lonely, and behaving like a child. He is calling you names and blaming you for his problems. Don't you buy it for a second.

I'm sending some good, confidence building thoughts your way!

miss communicat

wow!

boy, he's good! but if I were in your shoes, I'd tell him that he can do better than that.
if he cannot or will not, then I will tell you, YOU can do better than to buy this load of bs.

read anvil's post above. again. it is all true.

and then, remember: alcoholics drink because that's what we are wired to do. it's what we do. we drink when we are happy, we drink when we are angry. we drink at night we drink during the day. we drink when we want to sociable, and we drink to shut others out. we drink.

nothing you do or do not do will change that an untreated alcoholic will drink.
nothing you do or do not do will cause an untreated alcoholic to stop drinking.

untreated alcoholism progresses. i pray and hope that your AH continues to look at his issues and goes alot further than listing YOUR defects of character. all that proves is that he can take another person's inventory when, in fact, his concern should be on taking his own.

SerenitySeaker

Just this morning I had a session with my counselor. I made the following statement "According to my AH....." and she replied, "you might as well invite Mickey Mouse in here to tell you some lies, at least Mickey has some credibility" point was it is rediculous to believe anything my AH says because 1. it will be a lie and 2. it will always somehow be angled to put the blame on me.

I need to take responsibility for me and he needs to take responsibility for himself but I can't control if he does that only whether or not I do it.

My therapist went on to tell me that 10% of our brains know better and 90% of our brains are susceptible to the manipulation. Anytime we try to figure out the reasoning behind someone else's behavior , or we repeat anything negative that they have said about us we are feeding the 90% part of our brain. No matter how smart the 10% part is if we keep feeding the 90% part it will eventually be ingrained as truth in our heads.

Her suggestion, when I start thinking about crappy, mean things he has said to me, or start believing that I am at fault get out my ODAT in Alon book and read. Occupy the 90% with something positive even if I can't fully focus at first. Fake it until I make it if I have to.

Not sure if this makes total sense but hope it helps.

denny57

I didn't even read the list. If someone has a 7-page list of what bugs them about me, why the he** do they want to be around me?

Growing

The three C's are the three C's whether he has gone to a counselor and made a list of your faults or not.

You didn't Cause the drinking, you can't Control the drinking and you can't Cure the drinking.

DESIGNER

Ha have heard that one before and a couple of other ones that you pointed out. The funny thing is is that I asked the abf that i would like to work on not being so controlling can you give me an example please. His response was well one thing that you do is when we go to a restaurant you are always the one to speak up and tell the hostess if we want smoking or not" He says that is one way that I like to be in controll. Funny how that little thing bothers him......never was brought up to me over the past 4 yrs that we have been dating. He said that I also never let him be the man and take control. HA.....take control for once pleaseeeeeeee so that I don't have to do it. Yes sometimes I do feel like I have to be in control to keep things running smoothly.

Oh and as far as the weight issue thing.....that would **** me off. In a true love kind of relationship weight does not matter...it is about who you are inside and if you are trying to do something about it do it for yourself and not him. I have a manager at work that is a bit overweight and her husband is skinny-not an once of fat on him but he is the sweetest husband I have ever met. She tells me all the time how good he treats her-true love.

What it comes down to it he is just trying to make excuses for his drinking....end of story. Don't buy into it and I won't buy into what mine is saying to me.
Take care of yourself girl.

Chrysalis123

Your husband and mine are very similar. Mine, after having an affair, investing a large sum of money, and lying about it all presented me with a letter. I had asked him to explain the details of the affair. His letter was 7 pages long too and never in the whole thing was "I'm so sorry and how can I ever repair this?" Instead there was a list of things he wanted me to do! Also during this time I tried to set a boundary. It was if you want to work on this marriage I require a period of time where there are not any solo outings. Going out with the family or combinations of us would be fine but just disappearing was not. He took one horrified look at me, pounded his hand on the table and said, "How am I suppose to thrive living like that?"

At the time those words were an incredibly bitter and agony filled pill to swallow. Now I look back and view it as a gift from my HP. I couldn't extract myself from the sickness so my HP gave me some help. I am so thankful to be recovering now and I know in time I will have me back.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Try not to believe the lies. He is manipulating you.

hadenoughnow

The last time my STBX AH tried this with me my response was "if everything you say about me is true then I am a terrible person, please explain why you want so badly to stay married to me? obviously I should file for divorce and free you from my nagging, cold, unsupportive ways"

not exactly the resonse he was looking for....................

PrettyViolets

I was once given the relationship advice that I should not look for the right person, but that I should be the right person. You have a husband. He may not be perfect. You can only control yourself. You need to work on your own recovery, and he needs to work on his recovery.

1. Controlling --As a woman, I would love for a guy to come along and sweep me off my feet and make my life easy. But when that guy is dependent with alcoholism or I lose trust in him because his drunkenness, I do want to control everything--It is like an alcoholic who is drunk and he is in the driver's seat, and I am in the other seat--I feel like he is controlling my fate and my life. The only life you can control is your own (you can get out of the car). He needs to be a responsible adult for his own life, and there is nothiing that you are going to do in the sense of "controlling" that going to make things better.
2. Not Nurturing and Neglecting.--Do your words or actions reflect pride or humility? You have control on how you react. Just work on yourself and be the best person you can be. It will be easier to be supportive of your husband when he is sober and serious about his own recovery.
3. No Respect for Men in General--No idea of a good family--We as woman have a lot of pride--we are looking for this love that a man can give us--I will say it has never been the utter beauty with makeup (imagine diva top model) or my crazy words or demeaning nature that has ever won any love from any guy---
it has been more my natural beauty-- I am not wearing makeup, that guy sees my heart and humility--he sees a strong woman who sets good boundaries--she is not a doormat--and she deserves to be treated well.
4. My weight. --I do find that sometimes the issue of weight is almost like an addiction--is your weight something that you can control--can you really eat healthy and excercise regularly. If you need help, there are resources to help you. If your husband brings up the weight issue, just nicely say "I am working to be the best person I can be, and you need to work to be the best person you can be."

In a good marriage, you do not try to control everything--you are easy going and you work with the other person. It will be more natural to nurturing when your husband is sober. It is easier to respect someone who as well respects you. You have to love yourself in order for someone to love you.

This is not a contest for who is a good or bad wife or who is a good or bad husband. Some things in life just have to be learned. It will take a lot of humility from you as well as your husband. If both of you want a good marriage, then both of you will be more focused on humility in your own lives.

I do agree as well with the others that your husband needs to take responsibility for his own drinking--it is all part of growing up and being humble.

tennis71

Wow, as a recovering AH, I am wondering where I can find a counselor that actually agrees that the whole world is messed up and that's why I drink!

Just in reading your post it sounds to me like you are doing what you can to be a better person in a pretty tough situation -- that is commendable. Alcoholism is baffling for all involved especially the close family members. The alcoholic is not the only one in need of some help recovering, or even just staying sane, in an alcoholic relationship. Al Anon is a great resource and group to get involved with for your recovery.

I speak from experience with the counselor bit, I actually went through a period where I tried to get counseling for a problem that led to my drinking. It did not work for me. Now I am active in AA and was surprised when I first read in the Big Book about the steps that we/most alcoholics go through to avoid giving in and admitting that alcohol is the problem and that alcohol has taken control of our lives. Steps like only drinking at home, only drinking at a bar, switching to beer instead of liquor, and yes, even seeing a counselor to "get to the root of the issue". Alcoholics try anything so long as we don't have to give up drinking. That is not to say that someone cannot have mental health issues on top of alcoholism but it is common for an alcoholic to look for an easier way out than giving up drinking.

I am also starting to learn through treatment that no one can make me drink. In fact, the belief that someone can lead you to drink is irrational thinking that my alcoholic brain uses to justify or trick me into taking that 1st drink. My counselor calls that "Stinkin Thinkin" a corny but catchy phrase.

I wish I had better advice for your situation. It sounds like you already have the network set up. If you don't have an Al Anon sponsor you might try that, keep posting, and most importantly remember that the problem is not you. Changing everything on that list will not stop him from drinking.

Thank you for sharing!

WantsOut

So he allegedly didn't want to hurt your feelings, but has made plenty of complaints about your weight, one of the most touchy issues for women in our entire body-obsessed culture.

Smells like bs to me.

And as for nurturing - to me that's a term for the relationship between a custodian and a charge i.e. parent and child or owner and pet. It has connotations of providing sustinance. Yes, one can nurture a relationship, but I'm not sure healthy adults nurture one another on a continuous basis.

NOMOMERLOTMAMMA

Seems to me that he's putting all the blame on you in order to deflect it from himself. He kept all this inside and DRANK because of it?? BS. BS.

Boy, I'm sorry that you're going through this. I give ya a lot of credit for not getting really upset. And I'm a recovering alkie!

hope2bhappy

I'm sure he really believes all of this. Putting all of the blame for his drinking on you is the classic pattern of alcoholic denial. A 7 page list? I want you to try real hard not to laugh in his face, okay?

DESIGNER

Wow that is it......in a true relationship you can be more easy going and you WORK with the other person. I find that I am a very nurturing person with such a passion for life. I want to love with all my heart and soul the people in my life that respect me. RESPECT and TRUST are the two key components in a relationship.

My mom is a very easy going individual that truly enjoys the beauty in life. I have always known that I have had those same traits. She is so positive and optimistic with things in her life........but also she has a wonderful marriage to my dad. No he is not perfect and he does make mistakes but he is the first to give her the respect by admitting that he is wrong and over the years he has truly tried to work on the things that he knows is wrong and hurts her(he used to have a bit of a temper in the beginning of thier marriage). In return she works on things that are not right with her. THey work together-not against each other.

My abf always says to me that I am not easy going enough and that he just wants to live his life to the fullest. I have always told him that he really does not know me then....which is the sad truth. It is very hard to be easy going and nurturing when you have someone in your life who says that they love you so much one day and the next day turns right back around and disrespects you. If I could have one wish....I wish that we could take all the alcoholic problems out of our relationship and go from there.....then he would know the real me. The one that loves life to the fullest and enjoys all the precious things that are given to us on this earth. I guess he has a right to think that because he has not gotten to truly see the real person that I am inside......I am sick with the disease of alcoholism as much as he is....but I am on my way to getting better.

I find it soo hard that he thinks this way of me....but in my heart I know who I truly am and that is all that I need.

Pick-a-name

Alcoholism. I got a "speech" like this one day,too. Oh, and my (ex)AH didn't say anything to me (for about ten years! he said) because he was "afraid to" and "didn't want to hurt me" either. "Odd" that it came to him after I told him that his drinking was causing problems in our family and marriage.

Some of the things had a grain of truth to them,but really I was thinking about some of the things just the other day, and they are mostly lame. anyhow;how would drinking solve any problem,especially communication? It wouldn't.

Sounds like mostly the old alcoholic-blame-game to me. Please don't beat yourself up over it.

Have you read Getting Them Sober? see: Getting Them Sober- Recovery Communications. I believe it talks about this very thing.

p.s. Glad you are here.

p.s.s. I hit the wrong button and lost part of your post and can not find it to correct... I'm sorry and hope this is the last time for that problem.

NYC_Chick

I, too, got the list, only it wasn't written. Here's what my xabf had to say...

Like you, I am controlling. I control everything! My controlling is so bad that I have established that he is an alcoholic. Because I put that label on him, he was forced to tell his family about his alcoholism. P.S. now that I am out of his life, he has figured out that alcoholism is a choice and he can chose to live by the label I gave him, or control his drinking because he is "stronger and healthier than he's ever has been before," and my controlling ways won't interfere with his firm 2 drink limit when socializing, no drinking alone, and NEVER any alcohol in the house.

I have anger issues! This one actually made me laugh! Funny, I'm not angry any other time than when I was dealing with his insane behavior.

I have ruined his chances for firsts in life, meaning I had a life before him in which I put myself though college and law school, bought a house when I was very young, and was engaged once before meeting him. So, we couldn't build a life together because he was not the first person I would be engaged to or would buy a house with. We had a screaming match in couples therapy over these things. Neither the therapist or I knew why he was so upset over this stuff. Now I know.

I was not nurturing enough and did not put him first. This was also a personal favorite because of the time frame in which I did not put him first. I graduated from law school in December and had to study for the February bar. Studying is a two month process. During that time, you study around 14-16 hours per day. I had NO CHOICE if I wanted to pass the first time, so he was put to the wayside, as was my family and anything else that may have thrown my studies. The DAY AFTER the bar, 3 days of hell, he told me what a terrible gf I was for neglecting him during this time.

There are many more examples like this that I can't think of right now, but you get the point. They will twist it 10 ways from Sunday to make you the a**hole. Don't buy into it.

According to him, there are many reasons why we broke up, not just his drinking. He admits it caused problems, but nothing like I have told him.

As of now, at least since last time we spoke on Monday, he was working with his therapist to get to the root of this problem...depression. Alcohol was a result of the depression and thus is not a problem at all because he's working on his issue. I say good luck with that.

I wish I had found this board during the relationship. I may have gotten out quicker.

YOU ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!! HIS ALCOHOLISM IS!

Always remember to...you are beautiful at any size. I hate the weight card.

Miss Pink

Do not listen to the alcoholic bull snot!:chatter

Its the blame game and I dont play that no more!