LaTeeDa

You didn't offend me at all.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter diddly if he is an alcoholic, problem drinker, or spoiled brat. What DOES matter is that his behavior is unacceptable. (I am assuming it is unaccpetable to you)

So you believe you can have a productive life together with someone who is verbally abusive and selfish, just as long as he has the label "problem drinker," and not the label "alcoholic?"

NYC_Chick

LTD: Good point! No, I wouldn't accept that at all. I assume, quite possibly wrongly, that he acts like this because he drinks, not because he is actually a bad person. My A does have a great side and can be wonderful, but when he can't get his hands on alcohol, he can be all those things I described and has been.

This is really food for thought! Someone posted your comments on another thread a few minutes ago and commented about her experience. I guess I have a better understanding reading it. This is all so confusing!!!

LaTeeDa

It may well be he acts like this because he drinks. That isn't the point at all. The point is he is acting like this. When I got all caught up in the cause of the behavior, it distracted me from really seeing what was going on in MY life. I was being treated badly by someone who claimed to care about me and I was putting up with it because I thought if only the cause would go away, so would the behavior. I put all my efforts into convincing him to give up the cause rather than putting my efforts into protecting myself from the behavior.

L

ToughChoices

Really interesting insights here.

Is it wrong to "expect a lot" out of your partner? I consider myself someone who can deliver a lot, and I expect the same of my husband. His alcoholism does not free him from expectations. The problem lies in that I'm not always sure what is appropriate to expect:

Perfection? - that seems unlikely.

Understanding?
Honesty?
Forgiveness?
Willingness to change?

I ask these qualities of my partner - shouldn't I be willing to provide them, as well? I don't know if my husband will ever fully heal, and I'm not sure if I'll have the patience to stick around to find out. Still, as LaTeeDa suggested, for right now, I can either choose to live in the present or fear the future.

Today I will be at peace - I will deal with tomorrow when it comes.

Barbara52

Have you fully laid out your expectations? Spelled them out and said what happens if those expectations aren't met? In a way this would be setting boundaries although baoundaries are more along the lines of "I need thus-and-so and if I do not receive thus-and-so I am going to take X action."

The problem with expectations is that they are too often unvoiced, not communicated to the person we expect to do or bahave in a certain way. I am working on eliminating expectations in my life altogether because I have found them to be detrimental to relationships. I am working on accepting people as they are, good or bad, and then choosing to continue or end relationships based on my view of whether that person is good or bad for me.

karmakoma

Expectations is a wonderful topic and something I haven't seen covered on here. I might start a seperate thread if I have time later today.

I have found it easier for me to have expectations in terms of "role" rather than in terms of the individual. So, is the person that I am chosing to be my friend/partner/employer meeting my expectations? If not, are my expectations to high? Or too low? (I can expect bad things too!) Or should I decide to review the role that person has in my life?

I have heard it said in Al-anon that ridding ourselves of expectations might help us on the way to serenity. I always stick the word "unrealistic" in front of that phrase and it works better for me.

And as anvil says - there are some givens in this world. Too often I see partners of drinkers being grateful for the crumbs that are givens instead of feasting on the cake of a healthy relationship. I know I did for too long. Or maybe just long enough to learn what I needed to, perhaps.

ToughChoices

I think this is just an issue of semantics. We're using different words, but I think we mean the same things. I definitely see my expectations as given standards for a healthy relationship - I appreciate how emphatic you are about the topic!

Barbara52

But relationships with As are by definition not healthy relationships. Applying the standards for a healthy relationship to a relationship with an A can only lead to a conclusion that it can't work. And those relationships can work sometimes. There are some in here who have and are made those relationships work.

FormerDoormat

When you claim you're tired of setting yourself up for disappointment, can you honestly say that you have a healthy relationship?

LaTeeDa

I look at it this way--It's perfectly okay for me to have expectations. AND it's perfectly okay for others not to meet them. As a couple of other posters have said, whether you call them expectations or givens, there are certain things I require in a relationship. But, my expectations are my responsibility. That means if I am in a relationship with someone who doesn't meet my expectations, it is on me to do something about it. I can communicate what I expect, but if the other person is unable or unwilling to meet my expectations, I am left with changing what I expect (which is perfectly acceptable in some situations), or as KK says, changing the role that person plays in my life.

Having expectations and then getting frustrated when a particular individual doesn't live up to them is a certain path to insanity.

L

ToughChoices

I guess I'm just confused about what my standards should be. If health (as defined by honesty, responsibility, willingness to change, etc..) is too much to require, how does anyone make it through? I feel like I would be settling for anything less.

Is settling required for a time; is it a step on the road to health?

Barbara52

For me, when I realized I was settling, I then realized I deserved and wanted much more. There was no possibility of a healthy relationship with my A. Perhaps is is sort of a stage in that we settle while we stay in the madness.

He refuses to admit he is an alcoholic. He refused to take responsbility for his choices unrelated to alcohol. He refused to enter into individual or family therapy. He was content with his messed up life. I was not. It took me almost a year but I finally left him when I admitted I was not helping him or myself by staying in that marriage.

I've been gone 6 months now and he hasn't changed his life at all other than apparently quitting drinking (and I have doubts about that based on a number of things). He is still unemployed (2 1/2 years now). He still will not enter into a recovery program. He still refuses to work on his relationship with his daughters. He is apparently happy as a clam living in our house, writing poetry and having a series of online relationships with women and not being a responsible adult. I do not know who, but someone is supporting him financially since he is paying utilities and such. I believe his mother is now supporting her 53 yo son. Her choice.

ToughChoices

I find that my main problem these days is not that I am routinely disappointed, but that I have spent enough time preparing for the bottom to fall out of my life that I wind up expecting that disappointment.

I hear different stories from different people, all of whom are trying to help. Some say, "he's not getting better if he's drinking at all, he's just getting worse - off to AA, or there's no hope for him" and others say "he's working hard, he's drinking much less, he's going to counseling, he's talking about the problem - you guys are probably going to be fine".

I wish I could just pick a side. It would make things simpler. My struggle is not assuming all is lost just because I have been disappointed in the past. My struggle is seeing the situation for what it is, not what I fear it will be.

karmakoma

TC, you don't have to make a decision right this minute. How's about you take the pressure off, concentrate on your own recovery (you are getting help for yourself, yes?) and see where things stand in, say, 6 months.

I have some inkling of how you feel - in actual fact, I decided that I couldn't spend my life "waiting for the other shoe to drop" and left. I could have stayed and changed my way of thinking about the "shoe", however there were many other things that meant it was right for me to go.

LaTeeDa

Yes, if only we knew what the future held. I may be way off base, but it seems to me you are trying to figure out how to prevent a possible future loss. You worry that if you stay with him and he goes back to drinking, you will have made a mistake. You also worry that if you call it quits and he improves, you will have made a mistake.

You can only do what is best for you--right now. If things are good or getting better, relax. Enjoy it. If things are bad or getting worse, change course. Trying to second guess the future will do nothing to change it. I have yet to meet one person on this board who had an accurate crystal ball.

What do you want for you? (Not him, you.) Are you getting it? Are you on a path that leads where you want to go, or are you just in a holding pattern until some magical something happens and you can finally start living the way you want? These are the questions to ask yourself. If you are putting off living your life waiting to see how things shake out, stop. If your entire existence is pinned to his sobriety, find something to live for. Start living life the way you want to live it and it will all turn out just fine. Regardless of what he does or doesn't do.

L

LaTeeDa

OMG Anvil! Talk about a test of the boundaries. You're right, you can only control you. And good job on that!

L

Barbara52

Anvilhead, I am amazed. {hugs} You done good.

Summerteeth

Tough Choices,

I am in a similar situation with my sibling, who doesn't drink for 2 months at a time, admits she has a problem and then binges to the point of being nearly dead.

I get frustrated bc she acknowledges she has a problem and stops drinking, yet the binges continue every month or so.

You should expect basic respect from your partner. However, if your partner is an alcoholic, I wouldn't expect much of anything from him anytime soon. All you can do is work on YOU, love him for who he is, and do what is best for you. You can not control his drinking.

My advice for you and him is to try something new. If he's tried to stop drinking and it hasn't worked, he needs to try something new. So do you.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU~