please clarify!!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 141
Sorry to hear that things haven't improved, daisyjen. It is sooooooo disappointing, isn't it?
Perhaps it would help to think of this issue in terms of your responsibilities as a parent. I always finding making a list of things like that helps me gain clarity.
Perhaps it would help to think of this issue in terms of your responsibilities as a parent. I always finding making a list of things like that helps me gain clarity.
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Originally Posted by daisyjen 
Right, and he decided to get sober the minute I was out the door and out of love for him...
Originally Posted by daisyjen
I was done with the marriage. I stayed in the house and allowed him to stay because I am a codie and somehow felt bad for him. And now its a year later....
Originally Posted by daisyjen
Sorry, I guess I am not where I should be yet.
Lily xxxxxxxxxx
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Do you want your marriage to suceed or do you want him to pay for the last 15 years?
Questions I asked myself: what do I gain by staying? what do I gain by ending it?
I cannot correct my past so I cannot ask someone else to do the same. I can live the best life possible from this day forward, treating those I love with respect. If someone is not treating me with disrespect, I have choices. But I cannot force them to respect me.
Questions I asked myself: what do I gain by staying? what do I gain by ending it?
I cannot correct my past so I cannot ask someone else to do the same. I can live the best life possible from this day forward, treating those I love with respect. If someone is not treating me with disrespect, I have choices. But I cannot force them to respect me.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Poplar Grove, IL
Posts: 72
Is there an Alateen program for your son by you? My children all attend a weekly meeting and have been for the past two years. It has helped them so much. The biggest issue for them is like us they think that they are alone in dealing with all this. It would also show your son different ways to deal with his father and not get involved with his fathers tantrums.
Just a suggestion.
Just a suggestion.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: looking for the sun in cold MN
Posts: 775
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
He is responsible for his alcoholism. He is responsible for his behaviors. And you are responsible for yours. As Lily said, punishing him for the past is not going to help anyone. A marriage is by definition, two people.
When I look at what is happening in the present through a filter of the past, I am not seeing clearly. This is not to say that what is going on now is acceptable, only that it's hard to do the right thing now if I'm still dwelling in the past.
L
When I look at what is happening in the present through a filter of the past, I am not seeing clearly. This is not to say that what is going on now is acceptable, only that it's hard to do the right thing now if I'm still dwelling in the past.
L
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
I will never forget the past, yet I don't let it define my today. I realized by hanging on to old resentments, what I really wanted was the other person to do something about it. I keep learning, every day, I have no control over what someone else does. When I let go of the expectation of having someone make an amends, acknowledge my hurt, etc., I tend to dwell much less in the past and live for today.
For me, what worked was having no further involvement, in any way whatsoever, with the alcoholic in my life. What works for someone else may be different, but I do believe the goal can be the same: to live a joyous and free life.
((()))
For me, what worked was having no further involvement, in any way whatsoever, with the alcoholic in my life. What works for someone else may be different, but I do believe the goal can be the same: to live a joyous and free life.
((()))
Recovering Codependant
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Liverpool, Great Britain
Posts: 1,335
Originally Posted by Pajarito
...How can we forget the past?..
Realising that I felt anger or sadness etc because MY wishes were not fulfilled, or because I TOOK RESPONSIBILITY for a problem that was not my own, helps me to heal the part of me that was wounded. I have to look inside of myself. I have to realise that abf did not MAKE me upset/angry, that I MADE MYSELF feel those things was a leap forward for me in my recovery and with becoming closer again to my abf.
Lily xxxxxxxxxxxx
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 141
Thing is, is it really in the past if the behaviours are continuing?
When I was with my ex, I was consistently accused of living in the past and not "giving him a break". That got me terribly confused, because I couldn't really see much change in his behaviour, except for what turned out to be a short-lived period of "sobriety".
It was only when I decided what I wanted for my life, what behaviour in others (and myself) that I was prepared to accept/not accept, and measured that against what was happening at the time that I was able to listen to the best part of me and make a clear decision.
As Dr Phil says, the best predictor of future behaviour is recent past behaviour. We can all start building a better history, one day at a time. If someone has caused me harm, they'd better get busy writing some of that new history.
edited to add - forgetting what happened is not an option for me. Punishing myself or others, though, is not an option I wish to pursue.
When I was with my ex, I was consistently accused of living in the past and not "giving him a break". That got me terribly confused, because I couldn't really see much change in his behaviour, except for what turned out to be a short-lived period of "sobriety".
It was only when I decided what I wanted for my life, what behaviour in others (and myself) that I was prepared to accept/not accept, and measured that against what was happening at the time that I was able to listen to the best part of me and make a clear decision.
As Dr Phil says, the best predictor of future behaviour is recent past behaviour. We can all start building a better history, one day at a time. If someone has caused me harm, they'd better get busy writing some of that new history.
edited to add - forgetting what happened is not an option for me. Punishing myself or others, though, is not an option I wish to pursue.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
I'm not suggesting that you forget the past. In fact, forgetting the past can be dangerous in the sense that you lose the lessons. What I am suggesting is that the past cannot be changed, no matter the amount of resentment you carry over it. It is what it is, or rather it was what it was. Moving forward away from the resentment involves accepting it. Not condoning it or forgetting about it all together.
I often see posters on here who feel cheated because now that their A is sober, where are their amends? As if somehow there was something the other person could do to make it all better. And sometimes there are those who have received amends in some form or another, only to complain that it isn't enough. The truth is, there is no amount of suffering, apologizing, or doing the right thing that can make the past go away. The forgivness has to come from within oneself, not from something the other says or does. And when I forgive someone, I do it for me. Because I must free myself from the toxic poison of resentment. It doesn't make what happened okay, and doesn't make it go away. It allows me to move on with my life and find peace and happiness. Carrying around resentment prevents good things from coming to me NOW-when it matters.
This is not to say that you can just instantly decide to drop the resentment and be done with it. It is a process that takes some time and much self discovery. Resentments still rear their ugly head in my life even though I have been separated from my AH for over two years. I allow myself to feel the anger, I journal about my feelings and my part in it. If needed, I call my counselor. Only by working through it can I let it go and get on with my life's adventure.
L
I often see posters on here who feel cheated because now that their A is sober, where are their amends? As if somehow there was something the other person could do to make it all better. And sometimes there are those who have received amends in some form or another, only to complain that it isn't enough. The truth is, there is no amount of suffering, apologizing, or doing the right thing that can make the past go away. The forgivness has to come from within oneself, not from something the other says or does. And when I forgive someone, I do it for me. Because I must free myself from the toxic poison of resentment. It doesn't make what happened okay, and doesn't make it go away. It allows me to move on with my life and find peace and happiness. Carrying around resentment prevents good things from coming to me NOW-when it matters.
This is not to say that you can just instantly decide to drop the resentment and be done with it. It is a process that takes some time and much self discovery. Resentments still rear their ugly head in my life even though I have been separated from my AH for over two years. I allow myself to feel the anger, I journal about my feelings and my part in it. If needed, I call my counselor. Only by working through it can I let it go and get on with my life's adventure.
L
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: looking for the sun in cold MN
Posts: 775
Originally Posted by karmakoma
It was only when I decided what I wanted for my life, what behaviour in others (and myself) that I was prepared to accept/not accept, and measured that against what was happening at the time that I was able to listen to the best part of me and make a clear decision.
Originally Posted by karmakoma
edited to add - forgetting what happened is not an option for me. Punishing myself or others, though, is not an option I wish to pursue.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: land of the sick and tired
Posts: 68
Daisyjen, I would recommend counseling for you at least. I went and it helped me tremendously. I was out of love with my AH for so long that I couldnt give it anymore. I felt like I had been going through the motions for so long that I couldnt get off the ride. But I did. My AH has been sober now for 5 months and is not currently working a program. I went to joint counseling and the counselor said that if I wanted to make this marriage work that I would have to learn to love my AH as a sober man (a man I did not know) and that I would have to continue to give him my boundaries and tell him exactly what is and is not acceptable in the house. That statement indicated that I was married to a child and not a man. Why is it that I need to tell a 40 year old man that it is unacceptable to pass out in front of the children or expose me to his STD. I could not do it anymore. PERIOD. Even though he has been sober for 5 months the traits of the selfishness and selfcenteredness rear its ugly head all the time. I have finally accepted that this is who is and I cannot accept that anymore. I couldnt wait for the "fantasy" marriage and happily ever after to come my way.
I wish you the best.
I wish you the best.
Getting Over It
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 110
I know I need to make changes. For the first time in my life, I am thinking about me. I realized in the mist of all of this, that I am a beautiful, successful woman worthy of happiness. I am not the chubby, miserable, defective girl AH told me I was for so long. I will take my time in my healing process, so that I do the right things not just my sons and AH, but for me.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Minneapolis, Mn. Minnesota Alligator Controll
Posts: 286
pages 83-84 AA big book
If we are painstaking about this phase or our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and will know peace.
No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. that feeling of uselessness and self pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows, self seeking will slip away.Our whole attitude and outlook opon life will change. Fear of people and economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will
suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselfs.
Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fullfilled among us--- sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them.
These words are in every 12 step program, Alanon is no exception.
The first 181 pgs in the AA big book are for every one. just substitute
a few words.
No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. that feeling of uselessness and self pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows, self seeking will slip away.Our whole attitude and outlook opon life will change. Fear of people and economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will
suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselfs.
Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fullfilled among us--- sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them.
These words are in every 12 step program, Alanon is no exception.
The first 181 pgs in the AA big book are for every one. just substitute
a few words.
Last edited by geees poncho; 01-18-2008 at 12:39 PM.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 612
Originally Posted by daisyjen
Yes, I have resentment! Duh!!! I have been manipulated, hurt, and verbally and emotionally abused to the core and still get some of that now. Its just been a year since his sobriety and I suffered for 15 plus yrs of marriage.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
Posts: 653
jen,
i agree with some of the previous posters. i think your family needs some counseling. i don't think your family will be able to get healthy without assistance.
i completely understand your defensiveness about being "50 percent responsible" for the success or failure of the marriage. in my opinion, those sorts of statements apply to normal couples, not to addiction couples. drinking and drugging DESTROYS marriages and families and lives. and THAT is what has been destroying yours. UNTIL NOW. now: the percentages start to count.
what i do agree with, is that now that your husband is clean and sober, you have a moral obligation to work like you've never worked before to repair all the damage done to you and to your children the past several years. and honestly, you could be doing much more. you are giving up too soon on counseling, on al-anon, on working and working and working to repair years of damage from a DISEASE, not a man. if you continue to blame him, you're sunk. addicts do appalling things and they must make amends. but if you resent him for behaving like an addict because he is an addict, you will lose.
your son's disrespectful attitude ("shut up")toward your RAH is unacceptable. not okay, not earned. no matter the past. today is what is, and it is not okay.
my vote is for hard family work all around. one year is not long enough for rebuilding a shattered family. if you want to keep the life you have, and heal your family, you need to get out there and do it with action. get help, and stick with it for one year, just like a recovering alcoholic.
roll up your sleeves, jen. you can do it.
i agree with some of the previous posters. i think your family needs some counseling. i don't think your family will be able to get healthy without assistance.
i completely understand your defensiveness about being "50 percent responsible" for the success or failure of the marriage. in my opinion, those sorts of statements apply to normal couples, not to addiction couples. drinking and drugging DESTROYS marriages and families and lives. and THAT is what has been destroying yours. UNTIL NOW. now: the percentages start to count.
what i do agree with, is that now that your husband is clean and sober, you have a moral obligation to work like you've never worked before to repair all the damage done to you and to your children the past several years. and honestly, you could be doing much more. you are giving up too soon on counseling, on al-anon, on working and working and working to repair years of damage from a DISEASE, not a man. if you continue to blame him, you're sunk. addicts do appalling things and they must make amends. but if you resent him for behaving like an addict because he is an addict, you will lose.
your son's disrespectful attitude ("shut up")toward your RAH is unacceptable. not okay, not earned. no matter the past. today is what is, and it is not okay.
my vote is for hard family work all around. one year is not long enough for rebuilding a shattered family. if you want to keep the life you have, and heal your family, you need to get out there and do it with action. get help, and stick with it for one year, just like a recovering alcoholic.
roll up your sleeves, jen. you can do it.
Becoming a Butterfly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 904
I dunno folks - I think that this guy has been an abusive drunk, now he's an abusive sober man, and that DaisyJen should seriously consider getting her kids away from this a-hole. I don't think there's a thing wrong with her except that she stayed with him for too long.
This isn't just about her, this is about her kids and the hell this man put them through. She should have saved them long ago. She can't change that now, but she can show her children that they are worth more than all the gold in the world by rescuing them now.
It is not a codie move to protect them. That's her job as the only stable parent. She's not being a martyr, she's coming to her senses.
Eff forgiving the husband. He has not done a thing that makes him worth forgiving. If anything he's shown he's a shitheel AND an alcoholic, imo.
This isn't just about her, this is about her kids and the hell this man put them through. She should have saved them long ago. She can't change that now, but she can show her children that they are worth more than all the gold in the world by rescuing them now.
It is not a codie move to protect them. That's her job as the only stable parent. She's not being a martyr, she's coming to her senses.
Eff forgiving the husband. He has not done a thing that makes him worth forgiving. If anything he's shown he's a shitheel AND an alcoholic, imo.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Originally Posted by bluejay6
your son's disrespectful attitude ("shut up")toward your RAH is unacceptable. not okay, not earned. no matter the past. today is what is, and it is not okay.
I suggested family therapy or individual therapy because the kids need it to learn how to cope and go forward, because if daisyjen wants to stay with her AH, they all need help to do it.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 351
Your situation sounds similar to what I went through with my AH several years ago. All I can tell you is what happened in our lives. After many, many years of outrageous behavior and never ending denial that had kept our family in a constant tailspin-even when he wasn't living with us ... my husband finally went to AA, admitted he was an alcoholic and got sober.
However, like so many recovering alcoholics, his behavior the first year of sobriety was very disappointing. He was moody and relapsed into 'stinking thinking' many times. I have since learned that this unpleasant behavior is common at first, but at the time it confused me tremendously.
I also had two sons that were very well aware of the father's inappropriate behavior due to many years of drinking and had suffered because of all the chaos that surrounds all families living with alcoholism. My husband and I had tried counseling twice-but found these counselors poorly qualified in understanding alcoholics .and my husband continually lied to them. During these years, I was also was the only real parent my sons had or could depend on - and unfortunately I was also their defender when my husband would barge into our home unannounced in mindless alcoholic rages - many times aimed at them. Logically I knew it would take time for them to accept their dad again as a responsible parent.
My opinion is that respect and trust is earned ... not automatically given when one has engaged in years of outrageous and inappropriate behavior - especially when my husband had been promised us so many times that he would change.. only to be disappointed again and again. There are consequences to bad behavior-for everyone, not just alcoholics... and that my husband had to earn the trust of his sons again is something that should be expected and understood as it is a gradual process that takes time. I encouraged my sons to realize that their dad was really trying hard and was showing signs of improvement... but I could also see this through their eyes as well. I am a child of an alcoholic ... and believe me, the resentment never really goes away. My alcoholic father improved tremendously in the last 4 decades of his life but those memories of our lives being torn apart because of alcohol never went away. I will also forever admire all the courage and strength it took my mom to support and care for us when my dad was an active alcoholic. In later years, my dad and I had a very good relationship, but only because he seemed sincerely remorseful for the pain he caused our family, worked hard to make amends for many years... and because deep down, he was really a very kind and decent man. My dad didn't earn back our trust just because he was biologically related to us ... and he didn't earn it back by being controlling and overbearing. My father earned our trust and respect back with patience, kindness and understanding...and allowing time to heal. He earned it by also staying sober for a long, long time ... not just one year.
With my husband, his behavior significantly improved in his second year of sobriety ... and the trust and respect gradually began to return ... however, when our lives were finally getting much better in every way.... his behavior began to change as he secretly began relapsing again. Unfortunately, relapse is all too common. His behavior became more hateful and unpredictable-and the chaos returned. Within a year he began to rapidly and aggressively decline ... all while trying to convince us he wasn't drinking. Eventually the truth came out ... and all the trust and respect were gone again, replaced with an enormous sense of betrayal .. as he spiraled out of control and quickly developed serious alcohol related illnesses that eventually took his life.
In hindsight, I just wish I had known that newly sober alcoholics are still struggling and it takes time for them to heal both physically and mentally. If I had known that, perhaps we would have lived apart a little longer before he returned into our home when he first became sober ... to give my sons and I a chance to trust and heal again as well - and for my husband to become a calmer and saner parent. We did have one very good year that we will always remember ... and it gave his sons a chance to see their dad at his best - but it took a year of sobriety and many AA meetings to keep him on track. Unfortunately, for us ... the sobriety was short lived.
However, like so many recovering alcoholics, his behavior the first year of sobriety was very disappointing. He was moody and relapsed into 'stinking thinking' many times. I have since learned that this unpleasant behavior is common at first, but at the time it confused me tremendously.
I also had two sons that were very well aware of the father's inappropriate behavior due to many years of drinking and had suffered because of all the chaos that surrounds all families living with alcoholism. My husband and I had tried counseling twice-but found these counselors poorly qualified in understanding alcoholics .and my husband continually lied to them. During these years, I was also was the only real parent my sons had or could depend on - and unfortunately I was also their defender when my husband would barge into our home unannounced in mindless alcoholic rages - many times aimed at them. Logically I knew it would take time for them to accept their dad again as a responsible parent.
My opinion is that respect and trust is earned ... not automatically given when one has engaged in years of outrageous and inappropriate behavior - especially when my husband had been promised us so many times that he would change.. only to be disappointed again and again. There are consequences to bad behavior-for everyone, not just alcoholics... and that my husband had to earn the trust of his sons again is something that should be expected and understood as it is a gradual process that takes time. I encouraged my sons to realize that their dad was really trying hard and was showing signs of improvement... but I could also see this through their eyes as well. I am a child of an alcoholic ... and believe me, the resentment never really goes away. My alcoholic father improved tremendously in the last 4 decades of his life but those memories of our lives being torn apart because of alcohol never went away. I will also forever admire all the courage and strength it took my mom to support and care for us when my dad was an active alcoholic. In later years, my dad and I had a very good relationship, but only because he seemed sincerely remorseful for the pain he caused our family, worked hard to make amends for many years... and because deep down, he was really a very kind and decent man. My dad didn't earn back our trust just because he was biologically related to us ... and he didn't earn it back by being controlling and overbearing. My father earned our trust and respect back with patience, kindness and understanding...and allowing time to heal. He earned it by also staying sober for a long, long time ... not just one year.
With my husband, his behavior significantly improved in his second year of sobriety ... and the trust and respect gradually began to return ... however, when our lives were finally getting much better in every way.... his behavior began to change as he secretly began relapsing again. Unfortunately, relapse is all too common. His behavior became more hateful and unpredictable-and the chaos returned. Within a year he began to rapidly and aggressively decline ... all while trying to convince us he wasn't drinking. Eventually the truth came out ... and all the trust and respect were gone again, replaced with an enormous sense of betrayal .. as he spiraled out of control and quickly developed serious alcohol related illnesses that eventually took his life.
In hindsight, I just wish I had known that newly sober alcoholics are still struggling and it takes time for them to heal both physically and mentally. If I had known that, perhaps we would have lived apart a little longer before he returned into our home when he first became sober ... to give my sons and I a chance to trust and heal again as well - and for my husband to become a calmer and saner parent. We did have one very good year that we will always remember ... and it gave his sons a chance to see their dad at his best - but it took a year of sobriety and many AA meetings to keep him on track. Unfortunately, for us ... the sobriety was short lived.
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