Brain damage?
 

I can't believe I'm still in the same relationship (5.5 years) that I was when I first registered here! What an idiot!

When we met, my bf was 52, getting drunk every single night. I was widowed two years, and my late husband had had many health problems, so I think the main reason I didn't bolt as I should have was that I was so used to dealing with one crisis after another that I didn't see his drinking for what it was. Anyway, in 2003 bf had open heart surgery, I gave him an ultimatum, and he did stop drinking. A year or so later, I gave him another ultimatum and he entered therapy. Finally at the beginning of 2007 (in a session with his therapist) I asked him to go to AA. He did, loves the great group, and has been going ever since. He has changed A LOT, needless to say. His life is 1000% percent better than it was. Good thing, too, because his mom (age 89, he is an only child) was just diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

With all the positive changes, there are two things that may yet prove to be deal-breakers for me.

1. Sex. We don't. After his heart surgery, he quit smoking briefly and the equipment was functioning well, and I had hope. In the last year, we've had sex once. Long story, but he basically doesn't have interest. When his interest after getting sober first flagged, I posted here, and people said, "give it a year or so." That sounded sensible to me, but now it's been over three and a half years, and he still shows no interest. We've been to three therapists together, and I've been to four others on my own for extended periods.

2. His anger. Since Day One the tone of voice that he often uses to address me is unnecessarily rude and defensive. We've gone around and around about this, with the therapists, too. Lately, I've been staying with his mom, so he can help out both of us (she's having chemo, and I'm immobilized with a broken ankle) and I observe him doing it with her, too. When she asks a simple question in a simple tone of voice, he often responds with sarcasm, a rude tone, a deep sigh, eyerolls, grimace, etc. He does this less than he did when he was drinking, but it's still often, several times a day. It hurts when you ask someone a simple question, like "do we need dog food?" and he takes that to mean either that he's screwed up and forgotten the dog foor OR that he bought the g.d. dog food and you're checking up on him.

Finally my question: is it possible that 30+ years of heavy drinking and drug use have actually caused so much brain damage in him that he is incapable of responding like a normal human being? He has told me that he feels defensive when people ask him questions because he has forgotten so much. The phrase "do you remember the time we--?" no matter how gently uttered will set him off.

I've read that when people become sober, they emerge into the world emotionally stuck at the age they were when they started drinking/drugging. In that case, his age is 17, and this is exactly how he behaves: like an adolescent.

So what about the brain damage? Anyone know anything about this? Thanks.





Regardless of the answer, I still need to break off the "romantic" part of our relationship, such as it is. I know this.

P.S. In the everyday aspects of life, cooking, cleaning, lifestyle values, religion, music, we are VERY compatible.

I think you're still looking for excuses for his poor behavior, when in truth there is no excuse to treat people that way, drunk or sober. Perhaps you're looking for excuses for his behavior so you don't have to address the fact that you've been letting someone mistreat you for the last five years. Why is that?

It was after I ended it with my ex that I realized a few things about why I stayed with him for so long, and, put with so much. It was hard for me to admit, but, I was raised on it...I was used to it.

What it took for me to end it was finally realizing that if I stayed, I could die, literally! That part I wasn't used to.

Now that I have that information about myself, I no longer tolerate certain behaviors. I am very sensitive to condescending tones/attitudes and blatantly hurtful words. Hopefully I always will be. That way I won't accept it as normal anymore, or rather, accept it period!

I've also heard about the age they start drinking with respect to their emotional maturity. I'm no expert, so I can't say anything medically conclusive. But, it certainly seemed as though that was how my ex was. He started drinking at 16 and as far as I know, some 30+ years later, probably still is.

It sounds to me like you might be ready to let go of at least half of the relationship. And if that works for you, then great! But consider that you might only be allowing yourself to gain half the happiness too. I don't know your situation, so I could be totally off-base! Wouldn't be the first time, LOL!

Best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

FD wrote: "I think you're still looking for excuses for his poor behavior"


No, I'm not looking for excuses. It really was just a question for information. I know his behavior is bad. He has changed so many things since he got into recovery, but I'm wondering if the angry way of talking is beyond his ability to change because of brain damage.

The thing that prompted that question was a recent experience I had with vicoprofen (hydrocodone and ibuprofen) after my ankle surgery. I took it for about a month, several days of that around the clock. I didn't know how easy it was to become dependent on it. Although my experience with it was very short, the short period of withdrawal was VERY unpleasant. While on it, my perception of reality was altered such that nothing bothered me, I was happy, at peace, in la-la land. I don't remember some things that I did.

That led to my wondering if his bad behavior is, in part, based on actual destruction of nerves, brain cells, synapses (whatever) over a lifetime of drinking and drugging. He has changed SO MUCH since he got into recovery, but I'm theorizing that some things he cannot change because of brain damage.

IOW has he gotten as good as he is going to get? (I know no one can answer THAT question. Just wondering about the phenomenon of brain damage.)

Does that clarify the question?

Alcohol does destroy the frontal lobe. You could do a google and read up on that. Would it matter if there was a reason for the way he behaves?

I don't think it's beyond his ability to change. I think it's beyond his willingness to change. Meaning he's short-changing you. My alcoholic boyfriend suffered brain damage as a result of a stroke from alcohol withdrawal. While it made doing every day tasks more difficult, like tying his shoes or buttoning his shirt, it didn't change his core personality.

Whether its brain damage or not (it could be), does that make it something that you are ok living with? Or do you want something better for yourself?

Sometimes after all the alcohol issues are dealt with, we find the person is not a very nice person and not someone we would choose to associate with except for the fact that we've been with them for a long time.

Barbara wrote: "Sometimes after all the alcohol issues are dealt with, we find the person is not a very nice person and not someone we would choose to associate with except for the fact that we've been with them for a long time."

This is the crux of the matter. I put up with obnoxious behavior while he was drinking. Then he stopped, got into therapy, got into AA, and many of those obnoxious behaviors changed. I attributed (rightly so) the obnoxious behaviors to the alcohol. But now I believe I AM seeing his core way of relating to the world... absent the alcohol. It's only this year that I have had the opportunity to see him with no alcohol, IN therapy, AND in AA. And there's a threshold of rude behavior that he cannot or will not change (or even acknowledge as a problem-- he says I'm too sensitive). Right now, with his mom going through chemo, he's on an even shorter fuse.

No, it doesn't really make any difference in the long run.

Our friendship is good, and I expect it to continue. But we are not romantic partners or lovers-- I'm reading to stop trying to be. (I think this will be a great relief to him-- I know it will be to me.) We don't live together (never have), but we do share ownership of two dogs. He has a weekend cabin on property next to my rural home and the doggies go back and forth. I've been spending less and less time with him until this ankle thing. And being with him and his mom so much has clarified things for me, including raising the brain damage question.

I put up with some bad behaviour while my ABF was drinking but he's been sober for 9 months now and I'm realizing that most of what I attributed to alcohol is really part of his personality. Things like criticizing me a lot, being self-centred, and not supportive of my interests. He has a lot of good qualities too and we have many interests in common - these things have kept me with him so far.

I don't know if he suffered brain damage - I think it's just him. He started drinking at 15 and stopped at 50 and yes, in many ways he's still 15.

Sigh, I am trying to get up my nerve to leave him. He is talking more about suicide which scares me, even though I know it's nothing to do with me really. I just feel like I might send him over the edge if I left.

Why can't things be simple???

Spinner

Spinner, thank you so much for that post.

Brain damage research
 

A little googling yielded this:

"Chronic alcohol abuse kills brain cells in the front of the brain, which affect planning, and social interactions and inhibitions. "

from here: http://www.biologynews.net/archives/...in_damage.html



"Compared to students who drink moderately or not at all, frequent drinkers may never be able to catch up in adulthood, since alcohol inhibits systems crucial for storing new information as long-term memories and makes it difficult to immediately remember what was just learned.

"Additionally, those who binge once a week or increase their drinking from age 18 to 24 may have problems attaining the goals of young adulthood—marriage, educational attainment, employment, and financial independence. And rather than "outgrowing" alcohol use, young abusers are significantly more likely to have drinking problems as adults."

from here: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9416.html




"The good news is that most alcoholics with cognitive impairment show at least some improvement in brain structure and functioning within a year of abstinence, though some people take much longer (35–37). Clinicians must consider a variety of treatment methods to help people stop drinking and to recover from alcohol–related brain impairments, and tailor these treatments to the individual patient. "

Very long informative article here: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm



"'This study shows that, even with prolonged sobriety, alcoholics show deficits in visuoperception and frontal executive function,' said Sullivan. 'Furthermore, although alcoholics were able to perform a visuoperceptual learning task at the level of controls, how they performed the task was very different from the way controls performed the task. That is, the underlying component processes used to execute this task were different.'

"'Unable to invoke normal visuoperceptual abilities, alcoholics relied on a more complex cognitive system to perform the visuoperceptual learning task than required by controls. The potential problem with this is that if that same system – frontal executive functions – is needed for a competing task, alcoholics may be at a disadvantage because that system would otherwise be engaged, for example, driving, or work-related demands that require sequencing, judgment, decision making, complex tasks requiring organization, planning, and visuospatial information, like dentistry, or using heavy machinery in construction.'"

from here: http://alcoholism.about.com/od/brain/a/blacer041115.htm

This last one is so interesting because I have observed this with my bf many times. He cannot seem to "picture" things-- how to put them together, how they are going to fit. For example, he was trying to put my rolling walker in the back of my car-- it has a hatchback. It was instantly clear to me which way it would fit in there, but he tried it five or six ways before he figured out the way that worked. This sort of thing has happened many, many times in our relationship. "That's not going to fit!" he will say. "Yes, it will," I say. And it does. This might just be a guy thing... like the way a guy will say, "There's no more room in the freezer," when there still is room, but he can't see it.



"Researchers know that many alcoholics continue to experience cognitive deficits even after long-term abstinence from alcohol. Results from a study in the April issue of Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research confirm that motor deficits also continue to plague abstinent alcoholics."

from this article, which explains the experiment: http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/demen...acer030417.htm



If this brain damage/alcohol topic is of interest, there are a ton of references here: http://alcoholism.about.com/od/brain...onsumption.htm




Okay, it's a slow evening, and I'm just googling around...

Sasha,
Or he could have Wernecke's Syndrome or Korsoff's Psychosis which both come from a thiamine deficiency due to alcoholism. You can google it, and when the memory is lost, it is lost, and you never get it back. I know that cause my AH had that.

sasha99, wow, great research.

what i have learned from attending open aa meetings for 3 years is that alcohol does indeed destroy brain function in some and sobriety cannot fully fix it. i have also learned that if the person is an A hole before addiction, sobriety alone will not fix it, they will still be an a hole.

Yes, I firmly believe they get brain damage from decades of hard drinking. I've seen it myself. Whether it's alcohol dementia or Wernecke's Syndrome or whatever you want to call it, it all amounts to basically the same thing.

I also guess that my XABF was an SOB before drinking, is now that he's a drunk, and would be if he went on the wagon for the rest of his life. I just think he's a wretched human being - period. And sometimes I think he drinks because he KNOWS what an SOB he is and is either trying to anesthetize it, or booze it to death.

You mentioned that after he became sober, he still continued with the defensive, sarcastic responses. Sadly, it does sound like the way a rebellious teen would behave. He also doesn't admit to this rude behavior and takes no responsibility for it. I think, brain damage or not, you may want to reconsider if some of his apparently entrenched behaviors make your friendship good. I'm sure you have friends who speak to you with respect, and that seems to be lacking a lot of the time in this situation.

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses. I really appreciate them.

Here is another interesting article about exercises that can help with alcohol-related brain damage: http://alcoholism.about.com/library/.../aa010618a.htm

A short quote:

"Regrowth of the frontal cortex in particular could be essential for a successful recovery. Including certain activities in therapy - activities that require the use of the frontal cortex, the site of executive function, impulse inhibition and goal setting - have been shown to improve recovery and increase retention in the treatment program. Also, thiamine therapy seems to increase treatment effects, likely by restoring aspects of central nervous system function."

I have found that when the alcoholic stops drinking, they still have the same personality and character flaws they always had. Drinking just camoflauged it, and nowthat the cover is gone, it's wide open for all to see.

With all he has been through he is probably desensitized. When he goes through his 12 steps you should see a change.