Sarah2003

I had an appointment with my counselor this afternoon and walked away feeling very sad and confused. He asked me which path I'm leaning towards........to work on building a healthy relationship with AH, who is currently in recovery, or divorce. I was speechless.

I began to discuss both options and asked him, point blank, if it's better for our children to be raised by both parents, with the dysfunctional relationship we currently have, or to be raised by divorced parents, when at least one is stable, happy and healthy. I didn't get the answer I was looking for. He states that it is better for the children to be raised by both parents, unless there is traumatic abuse going on in the household. He states that AH and I, through MY strength, have been able to raise our children to be happy and healthy even when our relationship and his behaviors were not so happy and healthy. (Because I was able to pretend and protect our children from everything since our oldest was born 16 years ago.) And on a scale from 1 to 10, he estimates that my husband and I were living at a 3 or a 4.

Now that husband is in recovery for alcoholism, counselor states that we might be able to make it to 5 or 6, and "would that be so bad?"

He gently reminded me that we took vows....for better or for worse.

I was not at the point of considering divorce, but now I'm feeling trapped.

I've been feeling great after each and every session I've had with this counselor. He validated our separation from the first day. He met with both me and my husband first, then it was decided that I would see him individually to work on my issues and husband would go to another counselor within the same practice who specializes in alcoholism. We would work on our individual recoveries before even thinking about working on our relationship.

This is a high-end private Christian counseling group. They do have excellent reputations, but I am so confused and feeling a kind of panic right now. When we first met, the counselor told me that the separation is good and that "self-sacrifice is NEVER good for the children."

I was so shocked at what he was telling me that I didn't even think to question him on his statements.

I realize that I am an idealistic person. Is it idealistic to want simple safety and security in a relationship? I'm not talking about physical safety. He has been physically abusive to me only twice and that was many, many years ago......9 years ago was the most recent incident. But he does have issues with anger, control, manipulation, porn, other women, and the counselor even described him today as having narcissistic behaviors.

I think this is the most turmoil I've felt since we separated four months ago. I'm feeling very discouraged. IF I do decide that I cannot remain in this relationship, I will never leave for fear of being the one responsible for permanently damaging my three children. Wow......what a burden.

Thanks for listening.

ladyregah

What a horrible thing for the counselor to say to you!! I would think that he would be help you to explore all of your options. You need to do what feels right for you and your children. No one is going to be able to tell you what that is... it is going to come from inside of you. I know how that is because I have been telling myself for along time that I am going to leave and something always stops me... The kids, money, fear..... It is always something.... sometimes I think to myself I dont know what I would do if I lived another life without him... I dont ever think of that as being something healthy or happy... It's more like a fanasty that is never going to happen.... I feel for you... Choose what come from yoiur heart... you know your kids better than anyone....

good luck.... i will be thinking of you.... ((((((()))))))

phoenix

Try to remember that while he may be a highly qualified counselor,, he is still only one person offering his opinion.

you get one life...one that should be lived with your best interests and your well being taken into account.what you do with your life has to be your decision.I know you want to do the right thing for your kids.But doing the right thing for you has to be part of the package.Otherwise...nobody wins.take care of yourself...

phoenix

myles1

One question: why are you going to a high end christian counselor? He is obviously pushing his beliefs on you. Does the counselor know about the porn and other women, anger management and manipulation?

I think the counselor is being a little out to lunch bringing up vows for better or worse under those circumstances.

You know in your heart what you want and I read in my abuse book "No Visible Wounds" that children can be well raised by one stable parent.

Ngaire

phoenix

When thinking of our kids, it's worth remembering that they learn from us what is and what is not acceptable in a relationship.

phoenix

Sarah2003

Thank you Phoenix, Lady and Ngaire for your support.

Wow...I was actually having a fabulous day. Actually....I've been having a fabulous four days. I've never had an experience like this with this counselor. I'm still in shock.

AH is out of the country, traveling for business. He left on Saturday and will be gone for another week. It's not that I'm happy that he's gone. I've been able use this time to truly focus on me.

I just took a peek at MG's peaceful photos and started sobbing. That's not typical for me.

This counselor has really helped me tremendously. I feel that he knows me. He knows of the many alcohol-related incidents, including his potential sex addiction. He knows how I've been compliant, and tried, with good intentions, to help and support my husband through 20 years of marriage. I know that I'm co-dependent and have been involved with Alanon and have read everything I could get my hands on to learn about this insane disease.

I have been through heck, as we all have, and have forgiven him and trusted him and believed in him over and over and over......I've stuffed my pain to the point of just recently recalling some of the incidents that I have repressed and forgotten until now.......

I just don't know why the counselor who I have trusted and bonded with would make such a statement to me. I always received validation from him.

Ok.....I'm done venting, and I'll get off my soapbox. I apologize for my little pity party. It serves no purpose to get angry. I'm just sad, confused, deflated and feeling a bit trapped. I need to talk to the source about this....my counselor.

Again, thanks for your support and I will pick up a copy of No Visible Wounds, Myles. Phoenix and Lady....you brought up some very good points. I appreciate that.

My prioity is my children. If I can stay in this marriage without becoming totally messed up, I plan to do so. I've done it for 20 years. I also believe that I'm 41 years young and need to maintain and improve my emotional well-being. It's starting to become a full-time job!

Thanks again....

Sarah

lyn_blossom78

Oh my, does it sound like we are living the same life! Our high-end Christian Counsellor said Squinty has narcissistic tendancies, along with manic depression, obsessive/compulsiveness, etc.

I too, have wondered whether staying was hurting more than divorce would, and vice-versa. I've agonized over it for 2 years--that's about how long the really bad stuff has been going on, except it's always been going on--just more bearable! Hope that makes sense. Mine's only been physically abusive (mildly) twice, too.

I guess, I wouldn't want to say for sure, as I don't know your situation--but your kids probably are doing pretty well, because of you. Mine are. Yes, Squinty is tough on them. But I cushion it enough, I hope.

Funny, my counsellor told me to be sure and examine my motives for staying, that they are not for selfish reasons. I said what do you mean? He said, well, you have an upper-class lifestyle, and it will be a lot harder to get by if you get a divorce. I said I didn't care for all that stuff--only for my kids--that's all. I want them to have a better life than I did. I think he understood. He also gave me the name of a good divorce lawyer. Hmmmmmm.

Squinty says he lies

Just keep working your program, and take care of yourself and your children. You don't have to make any decisions today.

Lyn

myles1

I'm just sharing a thought that I've been having lately, I was saying to my sponsor this weekend that if I ever found myself in the rooms of Alanon again because of an unhealthy relationship I'd let the relationship go. I never want to live again what I went through with my ex.

I only want to be going to Alanon for myself and improvement on myself.

Ngaire

catlady

A thought on divorce vs. staying. (Something I wrestle with a lot).

It occurs to me that my family of origin is a big part of the reason I married an Addict. I was shown by my mother that it was okay to accept unacceptable behavior for the sake of a relationship. I believe this is part of the reason I accepted unacceptable behavior from my dh.

Do I want to teach my daughter that it is okay to accept unacceptable behavior for the sake of a relationship?

Cat

Sarah2003

I so appreciate your feedback. Thanks for sharing with me.

Lyn....thanks for making me giggle......"Squinty says he lies." Too funny.

A girlfriend gave me a piece of advice......give yourself the gift of time. And she also pointed out that I'm looking at things in terms of black and white right now, and there is no such thing.

I was pretty upset last night.....feeling terribly alone and sad.

I'll work to continue on with my recovery and just take things one day at a time.

Sarah

Glenda

In terms of the divorce issue. Before I left my first husband (not an addict of any kind) I saw a counselor who said to me,,,,
"there are some people who can make the decision to stay in their marriage and get threw it fine because they made that decision." "There are some people who can not stay in a marriage for the children and must move on." I was the one who needed to move on. I have two beautiful daughters (17 and 11) who were 4 and 11 when I left him. I just attended a DARE drug program yesterday where my youngest won 1st place in the essay contest to stay drug free. She just won first place in a bowling tournament, she was awarded last night for making the principal's honor roll all three trimesters! Divorce isn't always the worst for our children. In my case, I was able to become emotionally stronger so my children could have a chance. My oldest daughter will be attending college in the Fall - the positives go on an on in my case. Each situation is different, but only "we" can know what is best for us.

My hugs and prayers go out to you.

Glenda

constant

I'll have to second Lyn's advice.......keep working your program you don't have to make any decisions today! You will know when you are ready to make that decision.......try not to focus on that but your recovery.

Yes the counselor is human and offering his opinion, but YOU are living your life. Ulitimately you have to do what you think is best for yourself and your children!

Constant

Daffodil

I would like to point out that the expert on you

IS YOU!...

I just had to unlearn 45 years of living life using the wrong tools,I also had find out what I really believed in and learn how to use new tools.

Unless the house is on fire I don't call 911, I don't need to have the anwser for the rest of my life...I only need to live today...

Do be kind and genlte with yourself...

Love and prayers...

ODAT

One of the things that I found so wonderful about the program was precisely the fact that nobody tells you what to do about any given situation. Suggestions, alternative ways of handling something.....but definately noone telling you which way to choose on major decisions.

When I was younger, 12 or 13 or so, I watched my Mother become a Christian. Dad was drinking and always angry at the time, we had only been in Canada for a few years and he was still adjusting to the climate and the culture, working a very demanding job and coming home grumpy and drinking was just a part of it all. My mother stopped drinking, was much happier and there was more singing around the house for that little while. She too, reported wondering then if she should stay or leave.

At the time my Dad was very angry with her because she had stopped drinking with him. By some miracle she had become quite content with drinking orange juice at the bar when her and Dad went out and he was extremely ticked with this.......calling her a goody goody and other names that I care not to mention. She, too, went for counselling from the pastor and was reminded of her vows and the little things in the bible that say she was to stay and allow him to leave if he so wanted to. So she stayed. The pastor even told her 'what harm was there in the odd drink or two now and again". And so she went back to drinking because Dad had ordered her practically to do so.

In one way I thank Mom for trying so hard. She did give us all the benefits of all staying in the same house. But at what costs? Our household was ruled by fear. For the most part I could feel only contempt for this woman who was my mother whom my father could not and would not show even an ounce of respect for. I learned to hate women, to hate myself. To hate men and to hate the whole dance that goes on between them. I threw myself into music to ease the pain, was molested by the teacher of the band, lied to cover up for him, drank, and did many things that were extremely high risk because that as I saw it, was the only way I could escape the ordeal of my parents marriage.

I was date-raped in my first year of University....though it happened at a time when date-rape was not really recognized and I had grown up with the very clear message that women did NOT say no. I became pregnant from that rape and when he proposed marriage I sort council from my parents who told me that clearly this man loved me, clearly I had loved him or I would not have been there with him, and clearly it would better for the child if I married him and gave that child the beneift of both parents.

And so we married and I spent the next 3 years in silent torture. My body was not my own and I was raped frequently. After the birth of my daughter and with him away at basic training, I finally got to talk to another single mother, a native.....who my mother at the time had only contempt and fear for because she was native and a single mother. It mattered not that her house was far cleaner than mine, that she was happier than mine, that her children were happier than mine.......it mattered only that she was a single mother and a native. But this woman gave me the idea that life could indeed be better alone than in the marriage and so I did leave.....staying at the womens shelter for a short time and basically hiding from everyone who knew me for fear of what he would do.

I went on from there to go back to university and after trying impossible work loads for two years, attempted suicide. I was 22 years old, 5 feet 7 and weighed about 90 lb's if I was lucky. That was when I first entered into some kind of recovery--counselling where I was weighed weekly and started to look at some of the things that got me to where I was. I didn't stay with that counsellor for long....I had entered a group therapy thing for women who were survivors of childhood sexual assult and some of the things that he claimed just didn't seem to fit well with me. I didn't recognize this at first, just knew that I felt uncomfortable there and frequently would forget to go. Eventually I began to understand that he, though a very good counsellor, just wasn't what I needed at that point and so I went to the Assult Center and found wonderful counselling through that.

During all of this time and for the next couple of years, my mother would call when things got so bad in her marriage that she needed somewhere to go. I would tell her what I thought and she would cry and a day later she would call again and tell me not to interfere. She was still going under the premise that if she left my father it meant that she would be not only failing Dad, but also failing God and those vows that she took so seriously. Eventually I couldn't handle anymore and moved with yet another dangerous parnter to the other side of the country.

During that year, my mother was to attempt suicide 3 or 4 times, each time coming that much closer to deaths door. Eventually she found A.A. stopped her own drinking and left him. That was about the happiest piece of news in my life concerning my parents because over the years I had watched my mother die a slow death from the inside out. Leaving him, despite the fact that I loved my Dad dearly, meant that I would eventually have 2 parents....and in my heart I knew this.

My father went on to marry again and through his second marriage I got to see another way of dealing with relationships. He still drank and the lady he married drinks also. But Cathy is a very different lady from my mother and had not the 34 years of history that they had had. The FIRST time he tried being violent with her, he ended up spending a night in jail, 5 nights on my couch and having a court case to deal with. He has never been phsyciall violent again and although at times he still tries the control trips with Cathy, usually they don't go very far because SHE won't let them.

My mother, I still have contact with and although she is still single, I do think she is much happier. She goes to meetings, goes to church, sings in the choir and is alot younger than her 60 something years of age. Although she is out in the praries and I am more Eastern Canada, she and I still have a relationship. I am now extremely proud of my mother and I thank her for the lessons she has given me. I am also rather proud of my father despite his still drinking. He has mellowed since the divorce and grown up some. And although they put each other through alot of pain, I can see more clearly now how they were both responsible for the things that happened and how they were both controlled by a mass of spiritual unhealth.

I say this story, not to try and persuade you one way or another. I chose over and over again to leave the relationships when it became apparant that I could not continue with it and remain healthy. My middle son's father is one I tried hardest with and at that time I learned that even though he was/is in some sort of recovery, the patterns that we had quickly built up with relating to each other were somewhat akin to lighting a match in a chemical plant. Despite all of our best efforts at going to counselling, anger management.....despite it all......the most loving thing at that time and even now....is just to walk away and allow him to do his thing and me to do mine. Because in staying I am very much aware that the possiblility is very real that the kids would eventually end up with only one parent alive and the other in jail.

To an outsider my parents appeared to have a somewhat functional family. Nobody knew about the molesting I went through, and I became on of the best in the band and in all of Canada on that particular instrument. I was top of my class in school and always managed to do extremely well in whatever it was that I did. I had to. The whole structure of the family depended upon it.

What I am trying to say, is that no one really knows what will happen down the road should you decide to stay or should you decide to go. I don't think that God wants us to stay in a relationship that kills one or both parents from the inside out though and neither do I adhere to much of the Christian values governing this anymore. What I did find out through my own investigations though was that for if when you marry it is because of pregnancy or one or both of you are using at the time, the marriage has grounds for annulement because it was not through choice or with a clear mind.

True it is good if a marriage can stay together for the kids. It would be far better to be raised by both parents. But from the perspective of a person who's parents did stay together mainly for the 'kids' well.....even at a 6 or 7 from outside appearances....the consequences can be pretty brutal.

I would just counsel you with one thought. If you don't know something (stay or leave) then it is usually time to do nothing and just to try and do your program, recover as much as you can and wait for clarity. If it comes that you can not stay with this person without undue internal harm to yourself......then you have your answer. If in time, with him being in recovery and you being in recovery, your relationship grows closer and you are both able to be happy together......then you also have your answer.

We are to live one day at a time. Perhaps trying to give an answer about something that may or may not happen further down the road in order to answer a counsellor.....is just not what you are supposed to do. Perhaps that answer will just have to be "I don't know at this time" and he will have to live with that.

Best wishes

Sarah2003

Glenda, Constant, Daffodil,

Thanks so much for the hugs, prayers and words of encouragement. Your messages have been a calming effect for me. I will just focus on today, and remain on the road of recovery. I can't change the past, or predict the future, but I can focus on what I do today.

Taira,

My heart goes out to you, dear. You have been through so much as a young girl and into adulthood. I truly hope for the best for you. It's obvious that you have great strength and courage. I admire that deeply.

To all:

I've just been saying the serenity prayer over and over today. I will not make a decision today, for I'm not ready to make one. Things are going as well as can be for the moment.

I just need to stand strong with my boundaries, and hope that AH will respect them enough to not break them. I guess that's why I've been at peace this week, with him out of the country. I'm not expending any energy on constantly working to protect my boundaries. Sometimes it's just easier to give in. And that is the story of my life.

Sarah

prettywoman

Your 3 children will be damaged staying in an abusive home!, they already are just by having to endure what they probably already have. And yes, growing up with an alcoholic parent is abuse! I am sorry if my words are harsh but it is the truth and the truth hurts sometimes. Our children deserve better than to learn that it is ok to abuse in any shape or form. Children that grow up with abusive parents are not going to be healthy adults. So there is nothing to even remotely to be considered in regards to staying in a relationship that is abusive. As long as we have two hands and two legs and a Brain we as women can take care of ourselves, there are way to many resources out there today than to be allowing an abuser/alcoholic to destroy our lives and the lives of our precious children my God what is it ? I am very passionate about this............are women that hung up on some male to be with and be afraid to live alone for a while without abuse? Why are women giving these abusive alcoholic men, a pathetic male such power over? Let's get real here please. I speak from some experience, not a whole lot because I was smart enough to run at the first sign and my unborn children will NEVER see such abuse! The best you can do is to take care of yourself and become a healthy adult so that your children have at least one person that can raise them in a healthy way. May God Bless you in your hard journey. Much love!!

EyesOpen

Pain is pain.

We all know when we feel pain.

To ignore it is wrong.

It's not complicated. It's nobody else's responsibility to get you out of your pain. Only you can do it.

Freedom is not given. It is taken.

After two years of going around in circles, I finally told my A that I am divorcing him. I told him to move out and find a new place to live. His moving van comes tomorrow to get his stuff.

I feel like the dark gray cloud over my life is lifting. I feel like myself again. I feel normal. I enjoy life.

Don't anyone tell me that feeling this good is bad. Don't anyone dare tell me that feeling bad all the time is good.