Heres what I have been thinking about today
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 105
Heres what I have been thinking about today
Situation #1:
Wife A: Develops Cancer
Husband A: Leaves his wife because of it
Situation #2:
Husband B: Develops Alcoholism
Wife B: Leaves her husband because of it
Compare the two scenarios.
In the first example, most would condemn the husband for leaving his wife. The "For better or for worse" idea.
In the second example, many would applaud the wife for her decision to leave the relationship.
What I am trying to comprehend is the double standard involved. I realise it is not black/white, but if someone you love gets sick from a disease, how do you reconcile leaving them, versus staying with them? Nobody wakes up one day and decides they are going to have cancer or alcoholism.
Im just interested in hearing others opinions on this.
Wife A: Develops Cancer
Husband A: Leaves his wife because of it
Situation #2:
Husband B: Develops Alcoholism
Wife B: Leaves her husband because of it
Compare the two scenarios.
In the first example, most would condemn the husband for leaving his wife. The "For better or for worse" idea.
In the second example, many would applaud the wife for her decision to leave the relationship.
What I am trying to comprehend is the double standard involved. I realise it is not black/white, but if someone you love gets sick from a disease, how do you reconcile leaving them, versus staying with them? Nobody wakes up one day and decides they are going to have cancer or alcoholism.
Im just interested in hearing others opinions on this.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
I really hate it when people try to compare alcolism to cancer. Its a red herring IMO.
Alcoholics do indeed have a disease. BUT its one they actively choose not to cure. They are the only one's who can do so.
I've never come across a cancer patient who actively chooses not to cure it, unless their disease is to the point where its terminal and they decide not to prolong treatment that can do no good.
Alcoholics do indeed have a disease. BUT its one they actively choose not to cure. They are the only one's who can do so.
I've never come across a cancer patient who actively chooses not to cure it, unless their disease is to the point where its terminal and they decide not to prolong treatment that can do no good.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
I've said this before, so sorry for repeating myself. If AH had gotten cancer instead and verbally and emotionally abused me; cheated on me; lied to me; manipulated me and wreaked havoc on the finances because of that cancer, I'd leave.
For better or worse, in sickness and in health does not apply to abusing the relationship.
For better or worse, in sickness and in health does not apply to abusing the relationship.
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Hey there TollBooth 
No problem. We all struggle with that same question. It's a very common misconception about addiction as a "disease", so don't feel bad about asking.
I'm going to change your situations a little to match my personal experience, so please bear with me.
Situation #1
Husband A: Develops a heart condition. Refuses to take medication and continually passes out while driving. Risks lives of children and pedestriangs. Refuses to change diet, gets dragged to the ER multiple times until insurance is cancelled, cashes in savings, house and borrows from friends to pay for burgers, fries and cigars. Looses job because he endangers other empolyees from passing out while driving forklift.
Wife B: Leaves husband to save kids from getting in car wreck, and to save self from winding up homeless.
Situation #2
Husband C: Develops alcoholism. Gets dragged to recovery center by employer. Recognizes his own addiction and throws himself into recovery. Upon discharge goes to meetings of AA every day for a year until he feels stable and in control of "triggers" that precipitate drinking. Gets a sponsor, sponsor others, volunteers for local al-ateen meets, makes ammends for the damage he caused while drunk, and volunteers to run recovery meetings at factory where he still works.
Wife D: Goes to live with family for a whole year while Husband C _proves_ his dedication to sobriety, then slowly allows him to _earn_ back her trust. They start dating again and after 3 years renew their marriage vows.
The difference is in the _effort_ made by Husband C to get well. It doesn't matter what the disease is. People use Diabetes as an example alot, but I won't (you lurking Jeri? ), Cancer is used as well, but out of respect for Barbara I won't. I use heart condition cuz I happen to have one, so I can speak from personal experience.
What we learn in al-anon is that the _drinking_ is not the problem. It is the _behavior_ that is the problem. It is the blind determination to get _sicker_ and cause _more_ harm to others that we object to. We hold our "A's" accountable for their actions.
Am I making sense?
Mike
Originally Posted by tollbooth 
... What I am trying to comprehend is the double standard involved....
I'm going to change your situations a little to match my personal experience, so please bear with me.
Situation #1
Husband A: Develops a heart condition. Refuses to take medication and continually passes out while driving. Risks lives of children and pedestriangs. Refuses to change diet, gets dragged to the ER multiple times until insurance is cancelled, cashes in savings, house and borrows from friends to pay for burgers, fries and cigars. Looses job because he endangers other empolyees from passing out while driving forklift.
Wife B: Leaves husband to save kids from getting in car wreck, and to save self from winding up homeless.
Situation #2
Husband C: Develops alcoholism. Gets dragged to recovery center by employer. Recognizes his own addiction and throws himself into recovery. Upon discharge goes to meetings of AA every day for a year until he feels stable and in control of "triggers" that precipitate drinking. Gets a sponsor, sponsor others, volunteers for local al-ateen meets, makes ammends for the damage he caused while drunk, and volunteers to run recovery meetings at factory where he still works.
Wife D: Goes to live with family for a whole year while Husband C _proves_ his dedication to sobriety, then slowly allows him to _earn_ back her trust. They start dating again and after 3 years renew their marriage vows.
The difference is in the _effort_ made by Husband C to get well. It doesn't matter what the disease is. People use Diabetes as an example alot, but I won't (you lurking Jeri?
), Cancer is used as well, but out of respect for Barbara I won't. I use heart condition cuz I happen to have one, so I can speak from personal experience.What we learn in al-anon is that the _drinking_ is not the problem. It is the _behavior_ that is the problem. It is the blind determination to get _sicker_ and cause _more_ harm to others that we object to. We hold our "A's" accountable for their actions.
Am I making sense?
Mike
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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I have that cancer/alcoholism dialogue in my head sometimes...I have moments when I feel guilty for not sticking by my exAH's side. He got sick, and I left.
But, wait! It's just not that simple!
People who've never lived with an alcoholic often have a hard time understanding the toll it takes on friends and family. I know that some people judge me for leaving. They just have no idea what was really going on...they just don't get it.
I gave my exAH a lot of time to get help. I was explicit that if he did not stop, that I would leave. It was not a rash, quick decision to leave. It was slow, sad, and very painful.
Staying would have meant sacrificing my life to his addiction. I don't think that is what marriage is supposed to be about.
I know he is sick and alone out there now...but if I had stayed, he'd be doing the same thing he's doing now, only I'd be dying too.
But, wait! It's just not that simple!
People who've never lived with an alcoholic often have a hard time understanding the toll it takes on friends and family. I know that some people judge me for leaving. They just have no idea what was really going on...they just don't get it.
I gave my exAH a lot of time to get help. I was explicit that if he did not stop, that I would leave. It was not a rash, quick decision to leave. It was slow, sad, and very painful.
Staying would have meant sacrificing my life to his addiction. I don't think that is what marriage is supposed to be about.
I know he is sick and alone out there now...but if I had stayed, he'd be doing the same thing he's doing now, only I'd be dying too.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,175
This is how I feel. What she said... I feel like if I stay I will sink with the ship.
My best friends husband found out about his terminal cancer late stage, and she stood by him for a horrible few years, as he slipped away. I think there is a different kind of sacrifice here, on the part of the significant others and family members of addicts. Alcoholics will lie to get what they need, trick you, take your trust, your money, they will leave people emotionally empty. In my case,I became as ill as he had.
My best friend did not catch cancer by loving her husband who had cancer, and helping him...they made decisions about treatment TOGETHER, and both knew how hard it was. She struggled,and HE struggled to navigate the disease. With alcoholism,at least for me, the family or loved ones are left to navigate alone. The drunk or addict just floats at the mercy of the wind, and there is not much working TOGETHER with an active drunk.
If a person with cancer chose to die, that would be a known outcome.With addicts the future becomes this endless ambiguity of drainage.
My best friends husband found out about his terminal cancer late stage, and she stood by him for a horrible few years, as he slipped away. I think there is a different kind of sacrifice here, on the part of the significant others and family members of addicts. Alcoholics will lie to get what they need, trick you, take your trust, your money, they will leave people emotionally empty. In my case,I became as ill as he had.
My best friend did not catch cancer by loving her husband who had cancer, and helping him...they made decisions about treatment TOGETHER, and both knew how hard it was. She struggled,and HE struggled to navigate the disease. With alcoholism,at least for me, the family or loved ones are left to navigate alone. The drunk or addict just floats at the mercy of the wind, and there is not much working TOGETHER with an active drunk.
If a person with cancer chose to die, that would be a known outcome.With addicts the future becomes this endless ambiguity of drainage.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 105
To everybody who has posted in my threads, I sincerly doubt I can thank all of you enough
Also is the fact that I am not used to bearing my soul on the internet. But SR seems to be the place to do it!
Guess I'm racked with guilt and self-pity over leaving a woman I love due to her drinking. And then to add on top of that the fact that she has found someone else in half a years time to move in with and get married to. All the while keeping me on a leash and not telling me about it. Like a spare tire kept in the trunk of her cheap import subcompact car.
Also is the fact that I am not used to bearing my soul on the internet. But SR seems to be the place to do it!
Guess I'm racked with guilt and self-pity over leaving a woman I love due to her drinking. And then to add on top of that the fact that she has found someone else in half a years time to move in with and get married to. All the while keeping me on a leash and not telling me about it. Like a spare tire kept in the trunk of her cheap import subcompact car.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: phoenix arizona
Posts: 741
Welcome! Read all of the stickies and info. that you can.
I felt the guilt first, too, but then eventually stopped once I started putting my own best interests first and worked on my own healing.
I felt the guilt first, too, but then eventually stopped once I started putting my own best interests first and worked on my own healing.
harleygirl92156
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: IOWA
Posts: 430
Originally Posted by tollbooth
she has found someone else in half a years time to move in with and get married to. All the while keeping me on a leash and not telling me about it. Like a spare tire kept in the trunk of her cheap import subcompact car.
For the life of me I can't understand why YOU feel guilty.
Have you tried Al anon, it could help you a great deal to attend.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: "Somewhere in Ohio" ... little joke from past
Posts: 481
Tollbooth, don't do what I did a year ago. I found out my XABF had a woman living with him, and it put me into a frenzy! So I got sucked back into his life because he played me against her. Then he did the opposite in his sick alcoholic way, and he went back to her a year later. Now I am feeling the sour grapes of having "lost" this great prize. Oh, how I know the feelings you are feeling. If she is like my XABF, she is NO prize. To them, it doesn't matter who is in their bed, as long as that person is putting up with their crap. You ... we ... deserve much better than an addict who doesn't give a rip about us, just what we can do for them. Look at her objectively. If that other person weren't in her life, would you want her? Chances are, no. I know, you're just feeling the panic of "OMG, she's getting away! I've lost her! I'll never have her again. I Lost!" I say the same thing, only it's "him" in there instead of your "her." Trust me, YOU DON'T WANT HER. You want a good woman.
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Originally Posted by Barbara52
I really hate it when people try to compare alcolism to cancer. Its a red herring IMO.
Alcoholics do indeed have a disease. BUT its one they actively choose not to cure. They are the only one's who can do so.
I've never come across a cancer patient who actively chooses not to cure it, unless their disease is to the point where its terminal and they decide not to prolong treatment that can do no good.
Alcoholics do indeed have a disease. BUT its one they actively choose not to cure. They are the only one's who can do so.
I've never come across a cancer patient who actively chooses not to cure it, unless their disease is to the point where its terminal and they decide not to prolong treatment that can do no good.
One does not choose to have cancer-And maybe not alcoholism either but, in this scenario:
The person with cancer has a choice to TRY TO BEAT IT but there is no guarntee they will LIVE.
The person with Alcoholism has a choice to MAKE IT HAPPEN to continue life better and LIVE!
You have a choice too if you want to stay-be it cancer or alcoholism-
IMHO if it is as Denny stated a person with Cancer that has abused me or Alcoholic I will not allow myself to sacrifice my own life just because of a disease. I can detach with love and show compassion but, I cannot allow the abuse today in my life.
Toll sorry that you are going through this healing
I Finally Love My Life!!!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New England
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I have epilepsy
When I had my last seizure I promptly surrendered my driver's license for the state appointed timeframe. I take my medicine like clockwork. Due to my diligence and continued efforts to look for (and be able to pay for) the best epileptologist around, I have been seizure free for 10 years )
I kicked my ex out of the house and now want no contact with him because he lied to me on many occasions, has has repeatedly shown me with his actions that he cannot be trusted, is not dependable, and chooses to live a life of being unaccountable and irresponsible.
That seems pretty black and white - and nowhere is alcohol mentioned.
When I had my last seizure I promptly surrendered my driver's license for the state appointed timeframe. I take my medicine like clockwork. Due to my diligence and continued efforts to look for (and be able to pay for) the best epileptologist around, I have been seizure free for 10 years
)I kicked my ex out of the house and now want no contact with him because he lied to me on many occasions, has has repeatedly shown me with his actions that he cannot be trusted, is not dependable, and chooses to live a life of being unaccountable and irresponsible.
That seems pretty black and white - and nowhere is alcohol mentioned.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Welcome to the big wide world of alcoholism and addiction. You can get through it. Keep sharing and rreading. What you've just been through is pretty classic in these parts.
Ngaire
Ngaire
Originally Posted by tollbooth
To everybody who has posted in my threads, I sincerly doubt I can thank all of you enough
Also is the fact that I am not used to bearing my soul on the internet. But SR seems to be the place to do it!
Guess I'm racked with guilt and self-pity over leaving a woman I love due to her drinking. And then to add on top of that the fact that she has found someone else in half a years time to move in with and get married to. All the while keeping me on a leash and not telling me about it. Like a spare tire kept in the trunk of her cheap import subcompact car.
Also is the fact that I am not used to bearing my soul on the internet. But SR seems to be the place to do it!
Guess I'm racked with guilt and self-pity over leaving a woman I love due to her drinking. And then to add on top of that the fact that she has found someone else in half a years time to move in with and get married to. All the while keeping me on a leash and not telling me about it. Like a spare tire kept in the trunk of her cheap import subcompact car.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: novato, ca
Posts: 181
I am one of those people who don't see this as a black and white issue. I do agree with the behavior being the issue, not the alcohol. But then, what if the person has a chemical imbalance that isn't self induced? Cycles of mood disorders and cycles of abuse may be one and the same. Alcohol may have caused a chemical imbalance or maybe the chemical imbalance was there all along and the alcohol was self medicating. So may of us have talked about seeing Jeckel and Hyde behavior. Maybe we are really dealing with different people. Maybe when we get glimses of the person we fell in love with or the child we raised or the sibling we grew up with... maybe they really are there and not just a trick to manipulate us. I have a hard time believing that there are all these evil, abusive, worthless human beings out there that are so smart and that we are so naive that we can manipulated into caring for them.
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: OHIO
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Welcome Tollbooth....when we took out vows and married our spouses....and said the words: "I do"..... I don't think ANY of us including me mean't that I'd do it all.... don't beat yourself up okay. My xah left us for the alcoholic OW and moved straight in with her when he left this house and you know what? She's only getting whats left.....and it ain't much. They are masters at manipulation and lies...its truly towards the end all they know or have left. Take care of yourself today and don't feel guilty any more ok.
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by harleygirl92156
That's what alcoholic's do. Manipulate.
For the life of me I can't understand why YOU feel guilty.
Have you tried Al anon, it could help you a great deal to attend.
For the life of me I can't understand why YOU feel guilty.
Have you tried Al anon, it could help you a great deal to attend.
And for the life of me, I cant figure out why I'm feeling guilty over leaving her either!!!
But as CBrown wrote up above:
You ... we ... deserve much better than an addict who doesn't give a rip about us, just what we can do for them. Look at her objectively. If that other person weren't in her life, would you want her? Chances are, no. I know, you're just feeling the panic of "OMG, she's getting away! I've lost her! I'll never have her again. I Lost!" I say the same thing, only it's "him" in there instead of your "her." Trust me, YOU DON'T WANT HER. You want a good woman.
But then I met other people at the meeting who choose to stay with their A spouse. Or sons and daughters of A parents who choose to continue staying in their parents lives. How are they doing it? What gives them the willpower to make the choice of staying involved with an A family figure and not "give up" on them?
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Originally Posted by tollbooth
What gives them the willpower to make the choice of staying involved with an A family figure and not "give up" on them?
I chose not to stay involved with alcoholic parents, alcoholic/addict sisters, and alcoholic significant others on a daily basis.
I did NOT "give up" on them. I gave up the illusion that I had anything to do with their recovery. And I gave up the thought that in order to "be there for them" I had to sacrifice my life, my values, my peace of mind, my financial and physical security, and my time.
Many -- not all -- people who continue to be deeply involved with their alcoholic loved ones do so for personal reasons that only they can explain. And often it has little to do with willpower to stay, but rather a lack of willpower to detach and let the A's higher power take over.
You've done the right thing, tollbooth. Sending good wishes to you that you'll find yourself with someone kind and honorable (and not alcoholic). Sending prayers that your ex will some day find her way.
Hugs,
GL
Guess what, I'm not crazy.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 286
If I love you and you get cancer I would stay and care for you to the end. What is happening to you can not be fixed. You have no choice in the matter, You will be in major pain, you will be bed riddin and helpless. HOWEVER, if you become an alcoholic you will lie to me, steal and cheet. You will abuse me verbaly and maybe even phisicly. You have the choice to try and stop. To cure your self. You may want me but you don't NEED me, maybe my money but not me. I become just a place to stay and someone to blame when you loos your job or get a DUI.
I don't see how you can compare the two things. Would you stay with a husband who beats you because he has rage issues?? Sorry but his mom was a real tirent when he was a kid so he just can't understand that it's not ok to hit??
It's one thing to go bankrupt because you have hospital bills but it's another because he f-ed away all your money in the local bar drinking and playing the poker machine.
If a cancer patent refuses treatment then they die fast, in a matter of months, but an alcoholic..... oh thats a slow form of sueside that can take decades to kill them and every day of those decaseds.... they can choose to get help, and every day they don't... you get to pay the price right along with them.
A person who has cancer does not take your life from you, an alcoholic does.
Sorry, but you hit a hot button.
D
I don't see how you can compare the two things. Would you stay with a husband who beats you because he has rage issues?? Sorry but his mom was a real tirent when he was a kid so he just can't understand that it's not ok to hit??
It's one thing to go bankrupt because you have hospital bills but it's another because he f-ed away all your money in the local bar drinking and playing the poker machine.
If a cancer patent refuses treatment then they die fast, in a matter of months, but an alcoholic..... oh thats a slow form of sueside that can take decades to kill them and every day of those decaseds.... they can choose to get help, and every day they don't... you get to pay the price right along with them.
A person who has cancer does not take your life from you, an alcoholic does.
Sorry, but you hit a hot button.
D
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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I think people get hung up on the disease question when the real question is acceptance. And that's my understanding of how people continue to live with an active addict or alcoholic. They accept that person exactly as they are. They take steps to protect themselves, and set boundaries, but they do not try to change the other person or expect them to be anyone other than who they are.
So, staying or leaving doesn't make a bit of difference. It's accepting that makes all the difference. Once I accept that the other person is sick (whatever "disease" it may be) and accept the fact that I cannot cure them, then I am left with the choice to stay with them or not.
And, as Denny pointed out, having a disease does not excuse abuse. So, my decision to stay or leave is based on the other person's behavior, not their disease.
L
So, staying or leaving doesn't make a bit of difference. It's accepting that makes all the difference. Once I accept that the other person is sick (whatever "disease" it may be) and accept the fact that I cannot cure them, then I am left with the choice to stay with them or not.
And, as Denny pointed out, having a disease does not excuse abuse. So, my decision to stay or leave is based on the other person's behavior, not their disease.
L
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