"Sober for Good" - Opinions
"Sober for Good" - Opinions
My wife is reading this book. I was a bit alarmed by what I saw on the dust jacket - something about how maybe you don't have to absolutely stop drinking. I do understand that many people have achieved sobriety without AA and maybe even without calling themselves "alcoholic" (although I think the latter must be kind of weird and maybe only a semantic thing - why would you absolutely abstain from alcohol unless you were alcoholic?). However, my understanding is that it is extremely unusual for an alcoholic to be able to drink at all without eventually sliding back into abuse.
I don't want to interject into what she is reading - I have been hearing a lot about how I am totally unhelpful and unsupportive (and yet should not "harass" her by trying to find out where she is, mentally, or what is going on with her recovery efforts). However, just for my own knowledge I wondered if anyone had any knowledge of the book. One of the things I found online seemed to suggest that an otherwise good book was marred by its emphasis on the possibility of returning to moderation.
I don't want to interject into what she is reading - I have been hearing a lot about how I am totally unhelpful and unsupportive (and yet should not "harass" her by trying to find out where she is, mentally, or what is going on with her recovery efforts). However, just for my own knowledge I wondered if anyone had any knowledge of the book. One of the things I found online seemed to suggest that an otherwise good book was marred by its emphasis on the possibility of returning to moderation.
I have not heard anything about this book; however, I do have a AH that has tried moderation w/o success. Not saying that there might not be very stong people out there that are able to do it, but my AH is not one of them.
Was it that stupid "moderation management" book? here's all you need to know about that:
Arrest trips up 'moderate drinking' crusader's cause
Movement's founder sent to prison for two DUI fatalities
Friday, August 11, 2000
By CANDACE HECKMAN
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
ELLENSBURG -- For years, Audrey Kishline thought she and other recovering alcoholics could learn to drink responsibly.
Her belief was so strong that she helped found a nationwide movement called Moderation Management, and became the movement's marquee speaker.
Today, the Woodinville woman was sentenced in Kittitas County court to 4 1/2 years in prison for two counts of vehicular homicide -- deaths resulting from her drunken driving.
Four months ago, the 43-year-old alcoholic drove down the wrong side of Interstate 90 near Cle Elum, plowing through traffic and crashing her pickup head-on into a car driven by Richard "Danny" Davis, 38, of Yakima County. In the car with Davis was his daughter LaSchell, 12. Both were killed.
Arrest trips up 'moderate drinking' crusader's cause
Movement's founder sent to prison for two DUI fatalities
Friday, August 11, 2000
By CANDACE HECKMAN
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
ELLENSBURG -- For years, Audrey Kishline thought she and other recovering alcoholics could learn to drink responsibly.
Her belief was so strong that she helped found a nationwide movement called Moderation Management, and became the movement's marquee speaker.
Today, the Woodinville woman was sentenced in Kittitas County court to 4 1/2 years in prison for two counts of vehicular homicide -- deaths resulting from her drunken driving.
Four months ago, the 43-year-old alcoholic drove down the wrong side of Interstate 90 near Cle Elum, plowing through traffic and crashing her pickup head-on into a car driven by Richard "Danny" Davis, 38, of Yakima County. In the car with Davis was his daughter LaSchell, 12. Both were killed.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
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my ex had heard of that book and the theory on tv and he just about jumped with joy....thought he had found the dream answer.
we can all guess the outcome of that one.
reminds me of the fad years ago of intentionally swallowing a capsule with a tapeworm to lose weight.
we can all guess the outcome of that one.
reminds me of the fad years ago of intentionally swallowing a capsule with a tapeworm to lose weight.
There are certainly many people who are heavy drinkers who do not have a drinking problem. For instance, in college, a lot of young people binge drink and would be classified as 'alcoholic', however, as they progress in life most have no problem.
Also, for those who subscribe to the idea that alcoholism is a symptom of a disease, and not the disease itself, might believe that they can manage their alcohol intake during less stressful times.
I think it is important that we do not paint everyone with the same brush-stroke. As with most things in life, there are many shades of gray. I do not believe alcoholism is black or white, all or nothing... though it's easier to think that.
JMO
Also, for those who subscribe to the idea that alcoholism is a symptom of a disease, and not the disease itself, might believe that they can manage their alcohol intake during less stressful times.
I think it is important that we do not paint everyone with the same brush-stroke. As with most things in life, there are many shades of gray. I do not believe alcoholism is black or white, all or nothing... though it's easier to think that.
JMO
This book is not the moderation managment book. This is a very good book (imho) that addresses the various ways that alcoholics/problem drinkers quit. The author calls the subjects of the book "masters". It covers pretty much all the ways that people quit. AA, Women for Sobriety, Rational Recovery and doing on your own or building your own program. Regarding moderation, she does make the point that is mostly never works for true alcoholics. She mentions it in the book because some of the "masters" were able to drink once in a while - say at a toast at a wedding or on a holiday. There were a few in the book that do moderate, but reading it, just seemed like controlled drinking. It was really being aware of your self imposed limits and really trying to keep them.
There is a good section of the book for the families of the drinkers. It features advice from the drinkers themselves on what, if any, affect the family had on them quitting. The drinkers acknowledge that sometimes you do have to walk away and they all say that the bottom line is that the family has to do what is right for them and the drinker has to be the one to quit.
I found the book to be informative and it shows that if you truly want to quit, there are various ways that it can be done.
Brdlvr
There is a good section of the book for the families of the drinkers. It features advice from the drinkers themselves on what, if any, affect the family had on them quitting. The drinkers acknowledge that sometimes you do have to walk away and they all say that the bottom line is that the family has to do what is right for them and the drinker has to be the one to quit.
I found the book to be informative and it shows that if you truly want to quit, there are various ways that it can be done.
Brdlvr
What's diabetes got to do with alcoholism?
Diabetes is not an addiction.
Insulin is, in fact, moderated by testing blood sugar before and after eating food.
Diabetics do not CRAVE sugar or any other food and they can eat sugar too in moderation.
Type II diabetics take pills to control their diabetes. Would that there was a pill you could give to an alcoholic!
ARL
Diabetes is not an addiction.
Insulin is, in fact, moderated by testing blood sugar before and after eating food.
Diabetics do not CRAVE sugar or any other food and they can eat sugar too in moderation.
Type II diabetics take pills to control their diabetes. Would that there was a pill you could give to an alcoholic!
ARL
I think there;s a big difference between a 21-year-old kid getting trashed keggers 20 times over the course of a semester, and an adult man or woman who is getting wasted often, especially nightly.
I don't think it's true that there are a lot of heavy drinkers who don't have a drinking problem. Most of the adults that I know don't drink to excess except on very rare occassions.
As for who is an alcoholic and painting with broad brushes - this is denial of the most serious kind. There's a lot of quacking going on here.
In my experience people who criticize AA fervently are simply unable to accept that abstinence is the only way for them. It's not really AA itself, but the pain in knowing that quitting drinking is their only true salvation.
So they pick away and deny that they need to quit drinking, all the while engaging in the "not yets" - nope, didn't lose my job yet, didn't lose my family yet, didn't get arrested yet, didn't kill anyone yet. And they think they aren't really real drunks. Until one of the "yets" comes true. Then they go to AA and wished they had listened long ago, before the terrible "yet" came true.
I don't think it's true that there are a lot of heavy drinkers who don't have a drinking problem. Most of the adults that I know don't drink to excess except on very rare occassions.
As for who is an alcoholic and painting with broad brushes - this is denial of the most serious kind. There's a lot of quacking going on here.
In my experience people who criticize AA fervently are simply unable to accept that abstinence is the only way for them. It's not really AA itself, but the pain in knowing that quitting drinking is their only true salvation.
So they pick away and deny that they need to quit drinking, all the while engaging in the "not yets" - nope, didn't lose my job yet, didn't lose my family yet, didn't get arrested yet, didn't kill anyone yet. And they think they aren't really real drunks. Until one of the "yets" comes true. Then they go to AA and wished they had listened long ago, before the terrible "yet" came true.
I don't think it's true that there are a lot of heavy drinkers who don't have a drinking problem. Most of the adults that I know don't drink to excess except on very rare occassions.
As for who is an alcoholic and painting with broad brushes - this is denial of the most serious kind. There's a lot of quacking going on here.
As for who is an alcoholic and painting with broad brushes - this is denial of the most serious kind. There's a lot of quacking going on here.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Most of the adults you know is anecdotal evidence. There are plenty of mentally ill people who self-medicate with booze or drugs. That does not necessarily mean they are alcoholics or drug addicts, though they may be categorized as such by current definition. If they become 'addicted' then I think there's more concern needed. But if they are getting through tough times with drink or drugs, and they stop abusing after life gets better, then they shouldn't carry the 'alcoholic' or 'drug addict' label forever.
Getting thru tough times with drinks or drugs doesn't strike me as a very healthy way to deal with mental illness (or anything else for that matter) nor one that is likely to lead to long term mental health. Its another way to deny one's existing problems and develop new ones as I see it. It actually sounds like the typical excuses I read of alcoholics/drug addicts using to explain away their behaviors and choices.
I do not condone what mentally ill people do; I just know that they do it. If you are raised without learning proper coping skills, like in an impoverished neighborhood, self-medicating with drink or drugs is a reality.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,290
Oh, I know its a reality, and not just in impoverished neighborhoods. It happens everywhere. On some level I suppose we can say that all alcoholics and drug users are just self medicating (at least when they are in the beginning stages) to deal with whatever their personal issues may be.
Thank you Mike. I wonder how many threads in the alcoholism forum are devoted to "others," significant or otherwise. The only way to get better is to focus on yourself. It seems we codependents are really good at deciding what the addict needs to do. My life never got any better till I focused on what I needed to do.
L
L
An alcoholic is either sober or he is drunk. If that doesn’t apply to your life then you have no problem with alcohol and none of this is germane to your life. People who drink in a normal fashion really don’t think about CONTROLING their drinking. There is nothing to control.
Plain and simple if alcohol is a interfering with your life and you find that your daily behavior is affected by its use, then you have a problem. Common sense dictates that if we have problems in our life we fix them. If I have a thorn in my foot and that thorn inhibits my ability to walk normally I am not going to wax philosophic about how many thorns constitute a problem, or if I can limp now and then by only having thorns on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
Pull the thorn out with gloves, barehanded, or a pair of pliers, but if it is keeping you from walking with purpose and enjoyment by all means take the damn thing out.
This is a deadly serious subject for us alcoholics and I know I am one and if I had sat back and pontificated any longer than I did I would have been dead some 8 years ago. I was fortunate that I found a recovering alcoholic with 16 years of sobriety and asked him what he did. He told me and I have been doing the same things for these past few years. Total abstinence removed any alcohol problem since there was no longer any alcohol.
If you want to get sober ask a sober person how to get there. There seem to be an awful lot of spectators to sobriety but watching and conjecturing about how and when to get sober and actually getting sober can be the difference between life and death.
Jon
Plain and simple if alcohol is a interfering with your life and you find that your daily behavior is affected by its use, then you have a problem. Common sense dictates that if we have problems in our life we fix them. If I have a thorn in my foot and that thorn inhibits my ability to walk normally I am not going to wax philosophic about how many thorns constitute a problem, or if I can limp now and then by only having thorns on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
Pull the thorn out with gloves, barehanded, or a pair of pliers, but if it is keeping you from walking with purpose and enjoyment by all means take the damn thing out.
This is a deadly serious subject for us alcoholics and I know I am one and if I had sat back and pontificated any longer than I did I would have been dead some 8 years ago. I was fortunate that I found a recovering alcoholic with 16 years of sobriety and asked him what he did. He told me and I have been doing the same things for these past few years. Total abstinence removed any alcohol problem since there was no longer any alcohol.
If you want to get sober ask a sober person how to get there. There seem to be an awful lot of spectators to sobriety but watching and conjecturing about how and when to get sober and actually getting sober can be the difference between life and death.
Jon
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