Pilgrim

Hi Ted

You are so sweet to try so hard to understand for your brother.

I don't understand it either so don't feel bad.

I just know now that I don't have to understand why we are different from you and other normal/heavy drinkers who are not alcoholics. I don't understand you lot at all. I sometimes would like to understand why you can just have one drink and get up and walk away. For me that is freak central.

Not having to understand - that's the spiritual relief we have to find that a heavy drinker or freaky normie doesn't require in order to stop.

tedseeker

Splendid said she never got hangovers initially. I've heard that about others too. My brother remarked that unlike other people who get hangovers after they drink a lot, it never was like that for him when he first started drinking. He said just a year ago that he never has had a hangover. My brother does drink in the morning now to relieve the symptoms of withdrawal. Is a hangover the same as withdrawal? He definitely is not in good shape in the mornings NOW.

It is accounts like these that cause some experts to say that EVENTUALLY the loss of control will occur. However, to my knowledge this has never been scientifically validated. The research according to Heavy Drinking ONLY doesn't show eventual loss of control IF ENOUGH incentives are given.

In a sense it is all academic because what addicts live in hospitals with people giving them incentives? In another sense it is important because if the truth is that it is not an uncontrollable disease but is a difficult choice based on opposing value systems and strengths, then that knowledge can help in setting up the most effective prevention programs and treatment programs. IRONICALLY, the disease-based programs teach how to build up one's strength and anti-drinking values as part of their treatment. However they also treat that the alcoholic is always at risk of slipping back in, which may be a great disincintive for some to drink that first drink, but may also be a license to go on a bender for others..


A biopsy of the muscles of a bodybuilder will be different than those of a non-weightlifter. A woman's brain is different than a man's. All those tests are showing is that there are differences in certain areas of the brain, and yes they are related to the pleasure centers. No big surprise. What needs to be shown is that they completely shut down the cortex--which I don't think is the case based on the evidence. It seems to me that these studies show the end difference. They may even be able to show some pre-existing differences. But, they do NOT show what happens during the process of becoming addicted to the cortex, rational reasoning. IMO there ARE actual thoughts that are processed about one's life and about how drinking fits into that life. THOSE are the matters of choice that the brain-disease model seems to neglect.

ted

tedseeker

Hi splendra. That does sound miserable. But, it also seems to show that you were making choices based on your feelings. Not because alcohol was making choices for you.


This seems to show that you made a choice because you saw that alcohol was keeping you from doing other things that no one was doing for you anymore. More rational reasoning. If alcohol or your mid-brain was making choices for you, you wouldn't have been able to decide to quit on these basis, it would seem.

I"m glad for you. This forum HAS helped me be more enlightened about how bad enabling can be for him.

thanks,

ted

tedseeker

It is very hard to imagine. I'm sorry for what you have experienced with your relatives. I feel like we can't really know the mind of someone who drinks themselves to death--do they know they are going to die, do they think there is no way out that will work for them? Maybe like the person that decides to kill himself, they simply have no hope for finding peace in life anymore.


I agree that we are very different.. I like the buzz from alcohol, but I don't need it to feel good, and never anticipate it. Maybe if I tried meth it would be different. I'm too scared to find out. It may come down to the intensity of the pleasure--maybe for you it is way more intense than for me. I'm positive that is the case once one is physically dependent, but it maybe was that way from the first drink too.

I'm all for whatever works. That in the end is what matters. I'm glad you have found what works for you.

take care,

ted

newenglandgirl

There's no doubt that alcoholics have a very different relationship with alcohol than do non-alcoholics and that their bodies react differently to the substance. That, I believe, we can all agree on.

This thread made me think of my own "allergy" to wheat. Let me explain....

For years I strongly craved bread. I craved it like a drug. And I would go on bread binges. I'd feel totally out of control and couldn't stop eating one piece after another. After a binge, I'd feel very sick for days. But, inevitably, another binge would be right around the corner.

I wanted to stop this vicious cycle with all my heart! I would try to control my bread intake. Didn't work. I tried to change to pasta. Didn't work. I just couldn't for the life of me understand why I was so intensely craving wheat.

This went on for a long time until I started to feel very sick all the time. I knew I had to do something. I began to suspect that I was craving wheat as if it were a drug. Thus, my logic followed that what was necessary was to completely 100% cut wheat out from my diet. And I did it. And you know what? The cravings went away, and my health resumed.

Now, cutting wheat out from my diet was NOT easy! I have had relapses. And it's amazing to me how if I eat just a little bit, I want to keep eating the whole loaf - I start feeling out of control. A part in my brain is screaming to keep eating it. But another part of my brain (the part that realizes the damage wheat does to my system) also has a voice, and it reminds me of the reprocussions of my actions.

I truly believe that my body reacts negatively to wheat. I have read that while this is not totally uncommon, most people on this planet do not have this reaction to wheat.

Although I felt caught in an addictive cycle, I broke free by making a difficult choice: cutting ALL my favorites foods out from my diet FOREVER. It has not been easy. But it's gotten easier with each passing year. I feel like new woman.

My reaction to eating wheat is not my fault. Just the way I am. But the choices I made regarding how to deal with the problem were my choice. And, that I believe, can only be explained by being blessed with a character strong enough to fight strong craving (at least the craving for wheat...smoking's a whole other issue...for another time).

I know that the craving for alcohol is probably much, much stronger than my craving for wheat. But this personal experience helps me make sense of the sick cycle that we all have had the pleasure of witnessing. Relating it to something I've personally gone through helps me to understand and emphathize.

In my wheat binge days, if someone had offered me an incentive to not go on a binge, like, let's say a $100 gift card to Macy's, I probably could have staved it off.
So it makes sense to me that those alcoholics in the study could control their addiction temporarily with the help of incentives. I just don't think it's a lasting solution, of course.

The only way to kick it is to take the bull by the horns and abstain 100% from whatever the drug is. Being able to do that probably has to do with personality and character factors.

ALTHOUGH....I do believe, after watching my STBXAH go crazy, that years of heavy drinking can deeply effect the A's ability to think like a "normal" person. Thus, making quitting almost impossible as they, at least my A, are so controlled by the drug and so mentally ill from the damage it has incurred, that they don't have the ability to make rational decisions any longer. It is perhaps because of the this that many alcoholics just keep drinking and drinking even though they seem to be suffering.

CRCounselor

Could the brain not become "rewired" from substance use and if allowed enough time could also again rewire when not using substances? The brain has enough plasticity throughout most of life to do this, I believe.

Many here have brought up very valid points that it can be a complex combination of things including the substance, the duration of use, genetics, enviroment, etc.
Its never simple, is it?

Perhaps substance abuse and/or dependency is initally a physical reaction and after a detox or period of abstinence, the brain can then begin to think more clearly on working on a sobriety plan. Hard work, yes but do-able.

For me, it isnt a disease but can certainly lead to disease(s). Perhaps that is one factor in beginning to abstain - the costs and consequences of continuing, the benefits of not continuing, the health and legal complications that occur. Perhaps even more importantly, the respect and hope and encouragement and support to do so.

denny57

I think the better analogy is to the cigarettes. For all his faults (and I'm sure mine are equal in number) AH has a very strong character. Maybe not the character I would wish for my own selfish reasons (that's my own bucket of problems), but I believe when I start thinking my character is stronger than someone else's I'm in dangerous waters.

JMHO.

embraced2000

whatever the study is, whatever the conclusions are.....i think our culture is in the embryonic stage of even beginning to understand addictions.

so steve....a question.

according to the info you shared, what are the treatments available for addictions.
i can certainly see the scenario that this info provides in the actions of my own xah, because he was so deeply tormented by his actions and thoughts, and at all costs i always felt that he was working for his addictions survival, even during the times when he was doing the best he could.....which seemed to be mimicing a lifestyle that he wanted, but not fully embracing it. like he was an actor in play and everyone knew his parts, except him.

what is the prognosis in this theory?

newenglandgirl

Excellent point Denny.

I didn't mean to sound 'holier than thou'.

I probably should stop comparing what I would do with what AH has done. I do not have his sickness. I will never understand what he is going through. I will never understand the power it holds over him.

I just have a really hard time understanding how my AH can refuse help and let drinking destroy his life. Sometimes it's easier to think that he just is weak and gives into the urge. Most of the time, though, I think that he's so mentally ill with alcoholism that he can't think straight and, thus, can't make rational decisions anymore; that window passed him by years ago.

sigh.

steve11694

i believe researchers are trying to find ways to use drugs that will impact the areas of the brain related to craving. there is a very good journal called "addiction" that can be read at most medical college libraries and/or hospitals with a substantial rehab program. it contains a lot of stuff re current strategies and research

http://www.addictionjournal.org/

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/loi/ACER Alcoholism Journal (yes, even one just for booze)

tedseeker

Because the brain is affected it makes sense to me to use a variety of approaches to 'fix' it. Naltrexone, campral, and other substances makes sense to me to use--especially in the beginning when the anti-drinking values are still so weak in comparison to the addicted brain. As time goes on, if one develops the anti-drinking values in his/her life then it may well be possible wean off or quit using the drugs.

IMO many things can be used to reduce or eliminate cravings, and thus to impact the 'mid-brain'. They all affect brain chemistry:

anti-craving drugs
cognitive therapy to deal with anti-drinking beliefs and values and pro-drinking beliefs and values
behavioral exercises to increase other values
exercise
biofeedback
food
sleep
relaxation approaches
prayer and meditation
anything positive in life--friends, family, work, relationships

Some work faster than others, depending on the person.

My brother took naltrexone a few years ago, and reported absolutely no cravings for about a month. But, he didn't work on his values or beliefs or alternative positive anti-drinking activitie, and the cravings began to return. IMO he was bored and missed the positive affect he had from alcohol. He didn't want to quit enough, as the treatment was to impress a court judge, and not for himself only.

Motivation is key, because if you aren't motivated, you won't do the things that affect your own cravings--in my brother's case he took naltrexone in the morning, worked during the day, got cravings as the day wore on, didn't take any more naltrexone, and then drank at night. When told to take more naltrexone during work, he didn't want to. He liked the buzz too much--he didn't want to have less cravings.. He figured he was now functional, worked full time, so what's the problem?

ted

steve11694

tedseeker

all u say is true IMO and well put. the textbooks say relapse serves a positive purpose in that is can further reinforce the absolute need to not take that first drink. It is the additional pain that provides the motivation to sober up again.
Its amazing how addicts can delude themselves into believing there is no problem because they are working.

tedseeker

Yes it is. As it turned out the work slowed down, the drinking increased, then when the work increased I think the drinking didn't decrease much and his work and work relationships suffered. Then he was pretty much phased out from the work.

ted

GlassPrisoner

To paraphrase the Big Book of AA.

"Job or no job, wife or no wife, don't let an alcoholic say he cannot recover until he has these things...."

In other words, the problem is not the job, or lack of a job.

Relapse does serve an important purpose. However I'd much rather watch someone else come back in and tell me it still isn't working for them. For me, relapse is not a part of my recovery program.

That said, when I was still trying to quit on my own, I relapsed. And yes, it was that "final bender" that put me in enough pain to seek recovery.