RisingPhoenix

Into Orbit

It doesn't matter if they're hurting themselves. It doesn't matter that we could help them if they'd only listen to, and cooperate with, us. IT DOESN'T MATTER, DOESN'T MATTER, DOESN'T MATTER, DOESN'T MATTER.
--Codependent No More

I think I can change him. Nobody's ever really loved him and appreciated him before. I'll be the one to do that, and then he'll change. . . . She's never been with anybody trustworthy before. I'll prove how trustworthy I am, and then she'll be able to love. . . . Nobody's been able to get to her, to conquer her, before. I'll be the one to do that. . . . Nobody's ever really given him a chance. . . . Nobody's ever really believed in him before. . . .

These are warning signs. Red lights. Red flags. In fact, if we're thinking these thoughts, they need to be stop signs.

If we have gotten hooked into believing that somehow we will be the one who will make the difference in someone's life, if we are trying to prove how good we can be for someone, we may be in trouble.

This is a game. A deception. It won't work. It'll make us crazy. We can trust that. We're not seeing things clearly. Something's going on with us. t will be self-defeating.

We may be "the one" all right - the one to wind up victimized.

The whole thought pattern reeks of codependency, of not being responsible for oneself, and of victimization. Each person needs to do his or her own work.

Nobody in the past has really understood him. . . . Nobody has seen what I see in her. . . . It's a set up. It sets us up to stop paying attention to ourselves while we focus too much on the other person. It takes us away from our path and often puts us in orbit.

Nobody has appreciated him enough. . . . Nobody has been good enough to her, or done for her what I can do. . . . It's a rescue. It's a game move, a game we don't have to play. We don't have to prove we're the one. If we're out to show people we're the best thing that ever happened to them, it may be time to see if they're the best thing that ever happened to us.

We have not been appointed as guardian angel, godmother, godfather, or "the one who will."

The help, support, and encouragement that truly benefits others and ourselves emerges naturally. Let it.

mallowcup

I don't agree with the quote from the book. It does matter very much.

mallowcup

We seem so willing to receive the wisdom found in a book written by someone else. I would love to see someone here write the book instead of quoting passages from someone elses book. There is alot of wisdom here. I am concerend whenever we have to convince ourselves that what someone else has written is true and if we dont agree, there is something wrong with us. I think that's a terrible damaging quote.

Rella927

Ditto! I feel at times I have learned more from people such as Mallow and ALOT of others in here just by reading the wisdom and knowledge they have shown so graciously with us.

I vote for Mallow to write the book of SR!

mallowcup

Everyone here has such a good head on their shoulders. Perhaps a collaborative effort, we'll all share the proceeds. I can't even come up with a Title.
I was stunned to see the vast talents and endeavors of the people wo come here.
Maybe that's it......God doesnt' make crap and God made me.
I had a head CT once so I know there is a brain in my skull, I saw it. I can look down and see two hands and two feet, they all work. I'm amazed at how most of us have that in common and how far it's gotten us.
I have been thinking of other women around the world and realize I have a responsibility to them. They can't walk away without being shot. They are forced to marry, they can't speak or have an abstract thought.
I am trying to imagine me scruffing along behind a man wearing a burka with my head down...........I don't know why I mention it......

Rella927

Yes a collaborative effort!

I know what you mean Mallow! I have watched programs and it brought tears to my eyes that these poor woman have no choices, they honestly do not-it is a shame. And for us to sometimes not look at what we have in our lives to the full extent but rather sell our selves short at times. To me these woman are amazing for what they endure and can only imagine what they are feeling within.

denny57

Well, I absolutely agree it doesn't matter. How much I love or care for someone is not going to cure their disease. There was a time I thought much of what is in the book excerpt was an indication of love. I don't believe that anymore. If someone else's writings (oh you know, like the bible maybe?) can help me think in ways I never have, I say hurrah!

Bottom line for me has been recognizing it is a waste of MY precious life to turn it over to an addict. That doesn't mean the addict is not a human being deserving of my love and support. It also doesn't mean that for some, devoting their life to another's recovery isn't what is right for them. It's all about what is the life I want for myself and how do I go about getting it.

Thanks for posting.

Cynay

I love reading my Meditations and do it everyday..... It may not be my orginal thought but there is a good chance I would not have had that thought today. I also find that often at least one of the readings is exactly what I need to hear that day.

As for it "It does not matter" ... Well I think once again it depends on what you looking at. For me there is alot that I spend my time obsessing about that really does not matter, I cant control it and thinking about it 24/7 is not going to change anything.... Its alot like "How important is this anyway" and "Let go and Let God"

Somethings do matter very much, but when you have done all you can.... the next right thing ....obsessing is not going to make it right. Sometimes I have to tell myself that in the big picture ... how much does this matter.

Astro

From current experience I know this to be all too true. And it's definitely making me crazy. But I'm not a victim in this, each day I choose to be a volunteer. Why? Fear that I'm still not seeing things clearly and that I'll make the wrong decision.

Thanks for posting this, RP.

Bravery

Mallowcup, I agree with you.

I was reading this book yesterday and felt very disheartened when I read that quote. It does matter. It matters alot.

If someone is hurting themselves and you can help, then it MATTERS.

Co-dependency isn't about helping people who need help, it's not about breaking your normal routine to help someone you love. It's about giving up your own 'being' to that person's problems. When you start to feel like you are the one with the drinking problem then you are out of your depth.

But to say that you can't help people or talk to people when they are hurting because it doesn't matter is completely wrong!

denny57

Maybe the wrong part was capitalized.

mallowcup

I repectfully disagree denny. I love the unloveable everyday at work and they do not have the capability of loving back in a way that would be acceptable to some.
"How much I Love or care for someone will not cure their disease".
Who said anything about curing anything.
I can't cure the HIV, Sickle cell or many of the other termminal diseases by caring but I sure can make a difference.
This ishe danger in these kinds of statements and quotes. They seem to conditon us to throw the baby right out with the bath water.
Alcoholism is not the only disease out there and alcoholism is certainly NOT going to condition my brain into thinking that not caring is recovery.
If I have to go around reciting some mantra, it won't be "IT DOESN'T MATTER, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

CE Girl

Take what you need and leave the rest.

I've turned to other peoples writing as a place to start. Oftentimes, I have no clue, my thinking and emotions are all jumbled up. Some reads I just can't wrap my head around, others, felt like I wrote it myself. In other words, its all in how I relate.

We are all individuals. Its the 'gift' we've been given. If we are open and honest, we can learn from each other. I agree, this is a "throw away" society in many aspect and people who are on this board are a good indication of what society offers. Compassion, intelligence, strength, hope, faith and love. Societal advocates and self advocates. What I get from reads that are posted on threads, is not so much whats in the content that started the thread but REAL insight from everyday people who live very different lives.

Peace

denny57

I agree mallow, we are reading this statement 2 different ways.

Cynay

You know.... This is how I look at it.

I had some good advise lately...... When Im doing my best to "help" and keep practicing my disease it keeps me in the way of God doing his job.... If I step aside and trust him the best thing for all involved will happen.

I dont think she means NOTHING matters.... I think she is making a point about the need to keep the focus on me..... she is pointing out the obsessions we tend to have in "wrapping" ourselves up in another person.

For an example..... I had a job once and I did everything ... I knew beyond a doubt that they would never find another to do all that and as good as I could.... I had that attitude.... so I "told" them how much of a raise they needed to give me. Know what, I was replaceable.

The beauty of recovery is sharing your ESH, that is all the books are, the author sharing what they know is true for them..... It is not always our truth or our truth today..... Just recovery in sharing is all, take what you like and leave the rest.

JenT1968

The sentences before this one in the book set the context slightly more for the excerpt:
"control is an illusion. It doesn't work......(my papraphrasing for speed) we cannot (and have no business trying to) control anyone's emotions, mind or choices. We cannot control the outcome of events. We cannot control life. Some of us can barely control ourselves. People ultimately do what they want to do."

this whole excerpt spoke SO LOUDLY to me when I first read it - far more than anything else. I had been desperately trying to make my life better. I beleived that if he just stopped drinking so much then my life would be better, and you know what? it would, I'm right about that, his life would probably also be better. the thing that spoke to me was that those things don't make any difference to whether he will change his behaviour, and therefore to my life. I had thought, and was twisting myself into painful knots, that he would change if only I could explain it properly in a way that made him see the effect his drinking was having. How this spoke to me was to let me see that he won't change because of my beleifs, he will, ultimately do what fits in with his world view.

My beleifs and feelings will not guarentee an outcome, it doesn't matter how much I wish for something, if love cured addiction there would be no addicts.

Mallow, at work you are a trained professional, with professionally laid down and legal boundaries, guidelines, support, and a door through which to walk out at the end of the working day. I am not a trained professional in addiction, and if I was I would not be living with those I was trying to help, so the same approaches do not neccessarily apply.

and FWIW, I don't beleive anyone is unlovable, I'm sure you don't either, given that you do love those in your care.

mallowcup

June, July and August I do live with them at Double H Ranch founded by Paul Newman, They have an awesome website. Just for the record, I was educated. Dogs are trained.
I am held by my convictions at work and at home. I may leave work at the end of the day. I am also free to leave my house anytime.
I'm also not trying to cure anyone.
I think peoples feelings and investments, their hopes and prayers matter. It all matters. I don't think chanting mantras about "It doens't matter cures anything either." Gotta go, a long night a work.

GlassPrisoner

Wow, codies (at least the one that wrote that) and alkies have a lot in common sometimes.

An awful lot in common......The last part in bold was such a revelation when I realized it.

Nuudawn

Hmmm...when I emotionally bottomed out of my attachment to my former relationship with a still using alcoholic/addict...it was precisely those words...."It Doesn't Matter"..that hit me. For me, it was in the context of his actions, his choices, his inability to love me, want me or need me anymore...was what "didn't mattter"...it didn't matter to the context of MY life....or my self worth or my being. It was HIS stuff...stuff he owned and I had no part in it.

BUT yes, it DOES matter when you are still living within it. It can't matter after you've walked away.

JenT1968

LOL okay.....apologies, but it was not meant to be a derogatory term.

Many people come to a book like co-dependent no more with a mountain of guilt, believing in their core that "if only.....(I loved them more, better, explained it the right way, could make them see, was a better wife/parent/child, had more sex with them, was more fun, kept the house better, earned more money, was more patient, was less outgoing, was more outgoing.....add in your own) they [i.e. someone else] wouldn't be behaving in this way".

I believe this is what she is trying to address. None of that matters in so far as it will make no difference to whether an addicted person is an addicted person, nor is their addiction the fault of anyone around them, and that making yourself sick or crazy isn't going to help them one bit, and that living your life around them isn't going to help them either. That and the fact that no matter how crazy it may seem to anyone else, everyone else even, the only person who can decide what makes them happy, is the person themselves.

She goes on later down the page to say that she is not advocating stopping loving or caring or hoping or treating people with basic human dignity or respect. She also is not advocating discounting positive problem-solving techniques like interventions by trained (her words LOL) professionals.