Interesting Debate Topic: Is it a Disease??
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
TBH, Tazman, I am not sure that we can reach that conclusion so easily. If I were a betting woman, I would say that the effect of stress hormones on a child's brain, particularly cortisol, will be scientifically proven to be key to all sorts of disorders in due course. It is already known to be a big influencer on insulin levels which are, of course, big impactors on liver function, which may explain the test results to which you refer. I would guess that having alcoholic parents, among other things, is a big stress (and excess cortisol) inducer. Oliver James is of the same mind:
Anyway, this debate is one for the scientists, I guess.
Maternal depression and alcoholism lead to abnormal cortisol levels which endure even after she has recovered. Being left with strangers in daycare does the same (but care by familiar childminders does not). If an infant does not feel secure, its levels go haywire because of the sense of threat.
Either the cortisol thermostat gets jammed permanently on, with the smallest thing triggering secretion, or it simply shuts off. Abnormally low levels result if the baby gets so used to crises that its state is one of permanent danger and nothing can convince it of a need to react. Hence, the most aggressive boys at school tend to have low cortisol, dating back to chronic neglect or hostility from carers in infancy, from which they have distanced themselves.
As Sue Gerhardt chronicles in her important and very readable book, Why Love Matters: How Affection Shapes a Baby's Brain, high and low cortisol are associated in adulthood with most mental illnesses, from depression to eating disorders to alcoholism. She also records how early experiences set our baselines for serotonin (low levels of which are connected with depression; high levels with violence) and abnormal brainwave patterns in the frontal lobes. Even the size of parts of the brain are affected. Persistent high cortisol in early life, reduces the number of key brain receptors when the brain is developing very rapidly.
Either the cortisol thermostat gets jammed permanently on, with the smallest thing triggering secretion, or it simply shuts off. Abnormally low levels result if the baby gets so used to crises that its state is one of permanent danger and nothing can convince it of a need to react. Hence, the most aggressive boys at school tend to have low cortisol, dating back to chronic neglect or hostility from carers in infancy, from which they have distanced themselves.
As Sue Gerhardt chronicles in her important and very readable book, Why Love Matters: How Affection Shapes a Baby's Brain, high and low cortisol are associated in adulthood with most mental illnesses, from depression to eating disorders to alcoholism. She also records how early experiences set our baselines for serotonin (low levels of which are connected with depression; high levels with violence) and abnormal brainwave patterns in the frontal lobes. Even the size of parts of the brain are affected. Persistent high cortisol in early life, reduces the number of key brain receptors when the brain is developing very rapidly.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
taz, and others....i admire all that aa has to offer....and i admire those that are able to get sober in mind and spirit. i know aa has led many to sobriety.....
i'm for any thing that a person can do to get sober and find serenity. i also know the most humble people i have ever known are alcholics who found sobriety and accepted accountability and responsibility for their past. those people just absolutely glow...they have a presence about them that exudes peacefullness. they have been to hell and back. so have their families and loved ones.
it is heartbreaking to know my xh continues to actively drink and ruin his own life.....not to mention the actions he has taken against so many that love him. it is horrendous....no need to elaborate....you all know what i speak of.
it's a disease....ok...it's a disease. then why is the treatment so difficult for the alcoholics to grab onto? why do some make it, and others not? why is it a treatment that one has to "be ready for?" i'm not trying to be a smartarse...i just want to know opinions....
it's excruciating to have loved ones out there...and to have to remove them from your lives so that at least one person of the coupling can survive and continue on with a healthy life.
it's excruciating to have to keep repeating to oneself all the mantras that we learn in recovery, hoping that by osmosis, we will finally "get it" and save ourselves.
it's so very hard to accept that our loved ones refuse to get the help that can lead them to a healthy life....and i know it is their life to do with as they see fit...but all the while they claim to want sobriety.....
ah hell, i'm rambling here.
i think it is very natural to want to explore all the questions we have about our loved ones, even tho i attend al-anon, read, study, and try to accept. the whys are always there.
i'm for any thing that a person can do to get sober and find serenity. i also know the most humble people i have ever known are alcholics who found sobriety and accepted accountability and responsibility for their past. those people just absolutely glow...they have a presence about them that exudes peacefullness. they have been to hell and back. so have their families and loved ones.
it is heartbreaking to know my xh continues to actively drink and ruin his own life.....not to mention the actions he has taken against so many that love him. it is horrendous....no need to elaborate....you all know what i speak of.
it's a disease....ok...it's a disease. then why is the treatment so difficult for the alcoholics to grab onto? why do some make it, and others not? why is it a treatment that one has to "be ready for?" i'm not trying to be a smartarse...i just want to know opinions....
it's excruciating to have loved ones out there...and to have to remove them from your lives so that at least one person of the coupling can survive and continue on with a healthy life.
it's excruciating to have to keep repeating to oneself all the mantras that we learn in recovery, hoping that by osmosis, we will finally "get it" and save ourselves.
it's so very hard to accept that our loved ones refuse to get the help that can lead them to a healthy life....and i know it is their life to do with as they see fit...but all the while they claim to want sobriety.....
ah hell, i'm rambling here.
i think it is very natural to want to explore all the questions we have about our loved ones, even tho i attend al-anon, read, study, and try to accept. the whys are always there.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Why do some people change their dietary habits to counteract their heart disease, diabetes, etc., or change their lifestyle habits to counter skin diseases, etc.? Yet others do not? It's up to the individual. In every disease there comes a time when it's too late to cure it.
Let Go Let God
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: jersey shore
Posts: 437
IMO .. and this is just my opinion , Im certainly no expert , I think there are different kinds of alcoholics and each one is as unique as the next . Some alcoholics drink because its learned behavior , the brain of a child is much different than that of an adolescent and the adolescent brain is much different than that of an adult . If the behavior of drinking is a learned behavior for some , maybe this is why children of alcoholics are so much more likely to become alcoholics themselves , hence its said that it is hereditary . And since the earlier you start drinking the more likely you are to become addicted ( because of that young brain , you train it in a way to need the alcohol ) presto , an alcoholic is born .
Other alcoholics drink to self medicate . This is why theres a big chance of an alcoholic being dual diagnosed with addiction and an underlaying mental health disorder or condition . Whatever trauma you suffer as a child may cause you to drink to feel good about yourself , the younger you start , the younger your brain is when it gets chemically changed and you begin to be physically dependent on it as well as mentally and emotionally . presto an alcoholic is born .
Since there is no guarantee that either of the abv examples will cause alcoholism , just makes the risk greater , I think the only thing it proves is that every case of alcoholism is unique , just like the alcoholic themselves .
Again , just my 2 cents . not worth much !
M
One more note and Ive said this before .. I absolutely love to hear from those in recovery , I admire your strength and determination and dedication to living a sober healthy life . I've been to AA meetings before (not an A myself) and have met the most amazing people there .
Other alcoholics drink to self medicate . This is why theres a big chance of an alcoholic being dual diagnosed with addiction and an underlaying mental health disorder or condition . Whatever trauma you suffer as a child may cause you to drink to feel good about yourself , the younger you start , the younger your brain is when it gets chemically changed and you begin to be physically dependent on it as well as mentally and emotionally . presto an alcoholic is born .
Since there is no guarantee that either of the abv examples will cause alcoholism , just makes the risk greater , I think the only thing it proves is that every case of alcoholism is unique , just like the alcoholic themselves .
Again , just my 2 cents . not worth much !
M
One more note and Ive said this before .. I absolutely love to hear from those in recovery , I admire your strength and determination and dedication to living a sober healthy life . I've been to AA meetings before (not an A myself) and have met the most amazing people there .
Let Go Let God
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: jersey shore
Posts: 437
denny .. could it be because the chemical balances in the brain are affected so dramatically with alcohol that it causes an alcoholic to loss touch with reality ? When you are drunk your judgement is so off that you cannot do many things , one of which is think clearly . I know during college I have woken up many a Sunday morning regretting what I did the night before , and that was just college stuff . I imagine after years of abuse the judgement gets worse and worse .
Just a thought . not even sure how I feel about that !
Just a thought . not even sure how I feel about that !
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
I enjoy reading all your posts so much--so many different opinions with one common thread.
I have never knocked anyone in AA-never would! But it is really the only "FREE" program availible for As. I wish there were more treatment-longterm facilities avail for them--and some type of disability to offer their families for a year--so instead of putting a bandaid on them we could get them whatever helps them.WE NEED MORE RESEARCH
Interesting comment re''everyday he still wants a drink""--yes--the founder of AAs last words were that he wanted a drink......
The AA in our community told me there was a 2% rate of recovery overall using AA alone---still when you consider the numbers that is good.
Go back and read Hope3 post-it is a good one.
Just know there are OTHER OPTIONS---like for my AS-and no one made any money off it except maybe the pharmasutical company.....He is under a physicians care--and HE IS SOBER......
I have never knocked anyone in AA-never would! But it is really the only "FREE" program availible for As. I wish there were more treatment-longterm facilities avail for them--and some type of disability to offer their families for a year--so instead of putting a bandaid on them we could get them whatever helps them.WE NEED MORE RESEARCH
Interesting comment re''everyday he still wants a drink""--yes--the founder of AAs last words were that he wanted a drink......
The AA in our community told me there was a 2% rate of recovery overall using AA alone---still when you consider the numbers that is good.
Go back and read Hope3 post-it is a good one.
Just know there are OTHER OPTIONS---like for my AS-and no one made any money off it except maybe the pharmasutical company.....He is under a physicians care--and HE IS SOBER......
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
LGL, that's exactly how I think about it. I also think there are alcohol abusers, or problem drinkers, who drink in a manner that could be labeled "alcoholically," and alcoholics (those with a different physiological makeup).
There's the inevitable question - what difference does it make - and I agree. For me, understanding I had nothing to do with it one way or the other was what I needed to kick start me into my own recovery.
((()))
There's the inevitable question - what difference does it make - and I agree. For me, understanding I had nothing to do with it one way or the other was what I needed to kick start me into my own recovery.
((()))
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
Thanks Denny--I have to admit--when I would watch my AS fail time after time-and say to me'' I can't stop" ''what can I do""''how do I stop this?'''---nothing worse for me than to see him WANTING to stop and being unableHe worked the program over and over and over--He really tried and every time he failed he would feel worse and worse and lose more hope.I am glad he was up to something new and different--it saved his life.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
You know what? It doesn't matter if some call it a disease, or an affliction, or a mental illness, .................................................. ...
I can tell you from personal experience when a person is afflicted with alcoholism and/or addiction that person is in HELL. I know I lived that hell for 24 years.
You want to quit, oh how I wanted to quit, but try as I might I couldn't go very long. I would walk in the grocery store and the bottles in the liquor department all the way across the store would start dancing and singing and calling me. My head would tell me "one won't hurt", God it was hell.
It wasn't until in a moment of desperation, I realized that if I kept drinking I would die, and if I tried to quit, I would die, but I wanted to die sober. Put the plug in the jug. The next day ended up at the hospital in alcoholic seizures ALL DAY, heart stopping periodically. My BAC was .38 and my body was craving MORE ALCOHOL. The last time, I was down for 28 minutes and they were writing the TOD on my medical chart when my heart started on its own.
I don't know how many brain scans I had the first year of sobriety, but I do know they were watching for brain damage.
So call it what you want, it doesn't matter to those of us afflicted. While we are practicing our affliction we are in HELL and the first year we are sober and/or clean is not much better. But many of us given the chance and shown a way to Live Sober, be it through AA or Smart Recovery or Life Ring or CBT or a Therapist, etc can make it and rejoin the living and become a productive member of society.
I don't care what any of you want to call it. I call it HELL.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
I can tell you from personal experience when a person is afflicted with alcoholism and/or addiction that person is in HELL. I know I lived that hell for 24 years.
You want to quit, oh how I wanted to quit, but try as I might I couldn't go very long. I would walk in the grocery store and the bottles in the liquor department all the way across the store would start dancing and singing and calling me. My head would tell me "one won't hurt", God it was hell.
It wasn't until in a moment of desperation, I realized that if I kept drinking I would die, and if I tried to quit, I would die, but I wanted to die sober. Put the plug in the jug. The next day ended up at the hospital in alcoholic seizures ALL DAY, heart stopping periodically. My BAC was .38 and my body was craving MORE ALCOHOL. The last time, I was down for 28 minutes and they were writing the TOD on my medical chart when my heart started on its own.
I don't know how many brain scans I had the first year of sobriety, but I do know they were watching for brain damage.
So call it what you want, it doesn't matter to those of us afflicted. While we are practicing our affliction we are in HELL and the first year we are sober and/or clean is not much better. But many of us given the chance and shown a way to Live Sober, be it through AA or Smart Recovery or Life Ring or CBT or a Therapist, etc can make it and rejoin the living and become a productive member of society.
I don't care what any of you want to call it. I call it HELL.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by LGLG07 
denny , Im so codie that because you said you agree , I now will agree with me too .. how sick is that ?! LOL
LOL!!! Another of my joys in recovery: no more need for outside validation. I can ask for and receive other's thoughts/suggestions and yes, even advice, but I don't need someone else to say I made the right decision. That was a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time coming!
Hope3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 2,155
Originally Posted by TroubledNC
I just wanted to thank everyone for their posts. I respect everyone's opinion and really value the perspectives. I probably used the wrong word for the title of my post when I wrote "debate." I don't want to stir things up. I am a newbie and just like Sunflower wrote, I am trying to be very open minded to new treatments and trying to educate myself so that I can make the right decision for my young daughter and I.
Many of you have been at the same spot I am at. I am just trying to make sense of everything. How my AH, who is so brilliant, great job, great family and friends, beautiful home, generous, sensitive, caring, loving, creative, could get to this spot.
I struggle with detaching b/c I do love him and care about him, but now realize I cannot fix him. Yet, it makes it hard when my three-year old runs to him like he's a hero in the 1/2 hour he might see her each day. He has done nothing violent, so it is not fair for me to cut off all contact, even though I have made the decision to move out with her to a rental townhome.
On a separate note, anyone see the Oprah special on Addiction where they did the brain scan of the addict and showed how it was different from a non-addict's brain? It is pretty powerful stuff. It opened up my thinking about addiction.
It doesn't make it okay (or easier) to accept the behaviors and I completely understand when many of you have said you don't care what it's called, you just know you needed to put boundaries up against the lies, deception, abuse -- regardless of whether they have a "disease." You know, I might come to that conclusion too. But, right now, I am just trying to come to my own conclusions, just as each one of you has had to do given your unique situation. And, I thank each and every one of you for your insights as I work through this -- you are helping me to make the right choices (as I struggle through anger/resentment) on a path towards personal recovery.
TroubledNC
Many of you have been at the same spot I am at. I am just trying to make sense of everything. How my AH, who is so brilliant, great job, great family and friends, beautiful home, generous, sensitive, caring, loving, creative, could get to this spot.
I struggle with detaching b/c I do love him and care about him, but now realize I cannot fix him. Yet, it makes it hard when my three-year old runs to him like he's a hero in the 1/2 hour he might see her each day. He has done nothing violent, so it is not fair for me to cut off all contact, even though I have made the decision to move out with her to a rental townhome.
On a separate note, anyone see the Oprah special on Addiction where they did the brain scan of the addict and showed how it was different from a non-addict's brain? It is pretty powerful stuff. It opened up my thinking about addiction.
It doesn't make it okay (or easier) to accept the behaviors and I completely understand when many of you have said you don't care what it's called, you just know you needed to put boundaries up against the lies, deception, abuse -- regardless of whether they have a "disease." You know, I might come to that conclusion too. But, right now, I am just trying to come to my own conclusions, just as each one of you has had to do given your unique situation. And, I thank each and every one of you for your insights as I work through this -- you are helping me to make the right choices (as I struggle through anger/resentment) on a path towards personal recovery.
TroubledNC
Hi Troubled, I know that you are seeking information, and are of open mind.
You have read many opinions, all true from each ones own experiences, and some very good scientific data...
I have the book Addiction: whay don't they just stop............from the hbo special,
I have beyond the influence, I have under the influence, I have read all information on the NIAAA, NCAAA, and just about any other repected and sought after agency to research this addiction.............
But I am a solution driven type of person, ok i say, alcohol is a disease, like many others, not going to mention any by name, whats the solution...this is where it gets interesting, and I think everyone is going to jump on me, but I hope not..
Because the person is dependent on the drug to function to what is normal to them, which trust me, isn't normal at all, they are going to be the last person to wake up and say, hey, I think I'll go to treatment today....
In the book, addiction, Beyond, and under the influence as well as some professional
interventionist, the opinion is, the person needs to be shown the way, either by intervention, court, family, or spouses. Will it work every time, no, will the person
not lapse everytime, no....
But there is convincing arguments and statistics that show the majority of alcoholics got into treatment by being persuaded, once sober, dry, theres more hope for the ongoing recovery to happen....
If you would like to know more regarding what I am saying, you can pm me.
I wish everyone peace, hope3
Sunny Side Up
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sth Australia
Posts: 3,802
Laurie, thanks for your post. I am gradually understanding more about this each day. I can only image yep it is a hell, I believe you. I have watched this for years and you are right, doesnt matter much, now to me anyhow. I have accepted this is who she is (right now) for another 1 year or 20 years. I wont desert her completely, I cant do it. But I will call her once a week to say hi and that I love her. Have a coffee, whatever until shes ready to get out of hell, like you say.
Thanks, a great explanation.
Thanks, a great explanation.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
This thread has been rumbling around in the back of my mind for a few days now (I did originally type "years" and I guess that is true!)
I firmly believe that people do what works for them and that applies to anyone, addict or not. Who am I to say that drinking is not the best (and simplest) available solution for a person at that particular time in their life? It may not seem that way from the outside, but given that many problem drinkers speak of the numbing effects of alcohol and and that any alternative means going through a whole lot of emotional pain before achieving freedom from the negative thoughts, I can understand why a person might take that route. Really, I am just being arrogant if I try and force someone to give up their crutch before they are ready to embrace an alternative, no matter how hard it is for me to watch. And once a person becomes physically dependent, there is more that emotional pain to deal with.
And that is why I believe that ensuring that I don't fall into the enabling trap is so important - if the consequences of the current course of action (drinking) is no longer the "simplest" option, then the alternatives might just them become slightly more attractive.
*disclaimer* when I use the word "simple", I don't mean "easy". I would never attempt to minimise the pain that a problem drinker goes through, nor that of anyone else affected by their drinking.
I firmly believe that people do what works for them and that applies to anyone, addict or not. Who am I to say that drinking is not the best (and simplest) available solution for a person at that particular time in their life? It may not seem that way from the outside, but given that many problem drinkers speak of the numbing effects of alcohol and and that any alternative means going through a whole lot of emotional pain before achieving freedom from the negative thoughts, I can understand why a person might take that route. Really, I am just being arrogant if I try and force someone to give up their crutch before they are ready to embrace an alternative, no matter how hard it is for me to watch. And once a person becomes physically dependent, there is more that emotional pain to deal with.
And that is why I believe that ensuring that I don't fall into the enabling trap is so important - if the consequences of the current course of action (drinking) is no longer the "simplest" option, then the alternatives might just them become slightly more attractive.
*disclaimer* when I use the word "simple", I don't mean "easy". I would never attempt to minimise the pain that a problem drinker goes through, nor that of anyone else affected by their drinking.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
It helped (and helps) me to go to a few open AA speaker meetings or listen to a few lead tapes (free online sites I like are http://www.elmoware.com/spktapes.htm and www.xa-speakers.org/ btw,they have a few alanon tapes there,too). Has helped me deal with some of my own issues to see that it is so much bigger than a choice to just not drink,etc. or "grow up". Also to see it is not about me. (the 3-C's)
This struggle I have with this helps me understand how much more of a struggle it must be for the person in the throws of the addiction to come to terms with all this. At least my being is not crying out to me to drink in all this. I have been physically dependant on medication (but since it was not psych. it was just a matter of a few uncomfortable days of tapering) but I do know what craving is like (quit smoking and have frantic searches around the house for "something chocolate" sometimes). That is a frantice feeling to get what I know I shouldn't and at some levels do not want....but I do it anyhow. The two feelings together and knowing I was effecting others I love in the process would be a nightmare.
I "get" that part. But I strive to do it with compassion,not pity...there is help available.
What I think my responsibility to my loved ones in this is to remeber they are sick and both protect myself from these actions (as I am sure their "Well side" would wish) and do or not do those things that give them (and me) the greatest potential for becoming well and seeking TRUE help.....not enabling and feeding the unhealthy.
Science just now seems to be getting to the point where they are starting to be able to begin unlocking some of these mysteries.
This struggle I have with this helps me understand how much more of a struggle it must be for the person in the throws of the addiction to come to terms with all this. At least my being is not crying out to me to drink in all this. I have been physically dependant on medication (but since it was not psych. it was just a matter of a few uncomfortable days of tapering) but I do know what craving is like (quit smoking and have frantic searches around the house for "something chocolate" sometimes). That is a frantice feeling to get what I know I shouldn't and at some levels do not want....but I do it anyhow. The two feelings together and knowing I was effecting others I love in the process would be a nightmare.
I "get" that part. But I strive to do it with compassion,not pity...there is help available.
What I think my responsibility to my loved ones in this is to remeber they are sick and both protect myself from these actions (as I am sure their "Well side" would wish) and do or not do those things that give them (and me) the greatest potential for becoming well and seeking TRUE help.....not enabling and feeding the unhealthy.
Science just now seems to be getting to the point where they are starting to be able to begin unlocking some of these mysteries.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by minnie
Really, I am just being arrogant if I try and force someone to give up their crutch before they are ready to embrace an alternative, no matter how hard it is for me to watch.
Yesterday at my meeting I was asked to read "Understanding Ourselves" aloud, which I hadn't done for a very long time. The first meeting I ever went to I sobbed like a baby when that was read. I'm grateful I was asked to read it again yesterday because sometimes I need to be reminded - there is a bit in there about "some of us are arrogant, smug and self-righteous" when we arrive at Al-Anon. I NEVER thought of myself that way, but I can see now it's exactly what I was. The more time that passes, I'm even MORE certain LOL. Oh yeah - I was great at seeing what HE ought to do to make his life better. At least now, I make myself laugh thinking about it.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
You know the one thing I hate about statistics is that they can be made to say anything when the numbers are manipulated properly. The 2% figure for AA is so misleading it is not funny, let us take a look at how these stats are gathered.
First of all they count the following folks:
1. Court ordered people, most of which are not alcoholics, but simply got a dui.
2. People who come to one AA meeting and decide it is not for them.
3. People who come into AA stay sober for a week.
4. the same people spoken of in #3 are counted again every time they come back into AA trying to get sober.
In other words out of 100 people who come into AA the same people may be counted 2 or 3 times, many of the people counted are not alcoholics and even if they are they are not looking to get sober.
Let us look at something else, how in the world can statistics of any type be gathered on an orginization that does not take roll at any of their meetings, where there are no membership list nor is their a requirement for membership.
Statistics on AA I view as a bunch of hooey, they are totally unreliable because there is no way to gather over all statistics. Heck even AA when it tries to gather stats itself points out that they are more wild guesses then anything.
One of the things that are not counted is the people who go to AA 10-20 over a 5 year period and finally get and stay sober. I know one guy who was in and out of AA for 13 years before he finally got sober, he has been sober over 3 years now.
The only semi reliable statistics on AA I found in "Beyond the Influnce", it was the results of a study done by a major rehab center they did on patients who had been through thier program whcih they do every year on over 6,000 patients.
They found that over 70% of thier patients remained sober if they attended mor then 3 AA meetings a week.
Are there other programs that work long term? Of course, but as I always say, no program will work if you do not work it.
As an alcoholic do I think it is a disease? Well I think it is right along with the "MAINSTREAM" scientific community that stands to make no money one way or the other if it is or it is not.
Does it really matter if it is or it isn't? No not really, but alcoholism can only be understood by an alcoholic, read all the stats you want and all the scientific studies under the sun and you still will not understand it unless you are one.
Can you understand what it is really like to be a marathon runner without running a marathon, not walking it or reading about running one, but actually running one, then and only then can one understand.
First of all they count the following folks:
1. Court ordered people, most of which are not alcoholics, but simply got a dui.
2. People who come to one AA meeting and decide it is not for them.
3. People who come into AA stay sober for a week.
4. the same people spoken of in #3 are counted again every time they come back into AA trying to get sober.
In other words out of 100 people who come into AA the same people may be counted 2 or 3 times, many of the people counted are not alcoholics and even if they are they are not looking to get sober.
Let us look at something else, how in the world can statistics of any type be gathered on an orginization that does not take roll at any of their meetings, where there are no membership list nor is their a requirement for membership.
Statistics on AA I view as a bunch of hooey, they are totally unreliable because there is no way to gather over all statistics. Heck even AA when it tries to gather stats itself points out that they are more wild guesses then anything.
One of the things that are not counted is the people who go to AA 10-20 over a 5 year period and finally get and stay sober. I know one guy who was in and out of AA for 13 years before he finally got sober, he has been sober over 3 years now.
The only semi reliable statistics on AA I found in "Beyond the Influnce", it was the results of a study done by a major rehab center they did on patients who had been through thier program whcih they do every year on over 6,000 patients.
They found that over 70% of thier patients remained sober if they attended mor then 3 AA meetings a week.
Are there other programs that work long term? Of course, but as I always say, no program will work if you do not work it.
As an alcoholic do I think it is a disease? Well I think it is right along with the "MAINSTREAM" scientific community that stands to make no money one way or the other if it is or it is not.
Does it really matter if it is or it isn't? No not really, but alcoholism can only be understood by an alcoholic, read all the stats you want and all the scientific studies under the sun and you still will not understand it unless you are one.
Can you understand what it is really like to be a marathon runner without running a marathon, not walking it or reading about running one, but actually running one, then and only then can one understand.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
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Problem with stats out of rehabs is that people are asked to leave for all sorts of reasons and so don't complete the programme. Therefore, the success stories are self-selecting for all sorts of reasons, not simply because of AA. (I am not for a minute knocking rehabs or AA, only stats.) Also, the scientific community DO stand to gain by getting certain results from trials and studies, depending on their funding. Helps to wear a cynic's hat sometimes when looking at this stuff.
I really hope that there are developments that mean that the physiological issues can be countered, however I am not naive enough to think that it is the final answer. After all, AA, SMART, RR, therapy and all the other programmes that have worked for some rely heavily on psychological methods. And in my heart of hearts I know that is where the real answers lie.
I really hope that there are developments that mean that the physiological issues can be countered, however I am not naive enough to think that it is the final answer. After all, AA, SMART, RR, therapy and all the other programmes that have worked for some rely heavily on psychological methods. And in my heart of hearts I know that is where the real answers lie.
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