Interesting Debate Topic: Is it a Disease??

Old 04-27-2007, 08:24 PM
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it was hard getting out of that storm for me, mr c.....and one of the reasons was because of what i had been taught about alcoholism...or i should say, what i hadn't been taught. but then, who takes alcoholism 101 in school, eh?

after the hurt was worked through (although, some still lingers there for me) and i was able to look at things more rationally and intellectually, the understanding of myself became my goal.

however, i still drift away at times, longing for the concrete answers as to what all happened.

you know judge judy says all the time....if it doesn't make sense, then it's probably not true. i have found that to be true in my search for sensible information regarding alcoholism.
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Old 04-27-2007, 08:31 PM
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Everybody _please_ be nice to each other, pretty please with sugar on top?

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Old 04-27-2007, 08:59 PM
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I believe it is a disease, hope you will read "Under The Influene" You can go to Alcoholism site and read parts of it in their stickys.
Some people abuse alcohol for a period of time, then stop, they are not alcoholic.

Alcoholics bodies and minds handle alcohol differently.
I also believe that the AA twelve steps help everything, if worked.
Many of lifes problems can be cleared up by doing a good 4th and 5t step.

I am both alcoholic and diabetic. High bottom A and age onset diabetic so far controlled by diet. I haven't been through all the hell with either that others go through, but I have had black outs, done things i would never do sober, things we call alcoholic insanity.
with food I have controll, but with alcohol no controll.

With food allergies I coud leave the food alone for 15 days, then have as much as i wanted at one sitting, my body would handle it the one time, with alcohol that cannot be done.
Just my opinion, take what you can use ad leave the rest.
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Old 04-27-2007, 09:19 PM
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God or evolution?
The chicken or the egg?
Paper or plastic?
A disease or addiction? Maybe disease & addiction? An addiction to disease?

Some of the age old questions we will be debating for years.

I agree - let's focus on us. Is codependency a disease or addiction? Is there a cure for us?
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Old 04-28-2007, 03:15 AM
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I think it's a desease, or at least, LIKE a desease ...
because an alcoholic's body doesn't react to alchohol like that of a healthy person anymore.

To me, the desease concept is important ...
because it means my A is not a bad, wilfully weak person. so i can stop punishing him, fighting with him, trying to change him ...

I don't think all As can choose recovery ...
Some just don't realize, or can't accept that they have a desease/problem... if they don't think they have a desease, why would they think they need recovery?

I don't think that believing alcholism is a desease will keep us stuck with the A ...
if we remember that this is a desease that we have absolutley no control over. Accepting the desease concept doesn't equal to willing to put up with the effects of the desease.

I'm not trying to debate on the topic though... Just writing out what I'm thinking and how the desease concept relates to my recovery....
There's no right or wrong of course. Same goes with the recovery programs for the alcoholics. There are programs that stress the desease concept and there are many that don't. As long as a program works for the individual A, it's the right program.

Last edited by LiLL; 04-28-2007 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:07 AM
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Did anyone else read this in the news yesterday? Interesting,I thought.

http://news.*****.com/s/afp/20070425...h_070425181622
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:52 AM
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Red face

Originally Posted by DesertEyes View Post
Everybody _please_ be nice to each other, pretty please with sugar on top?

Mike
Troubled, the most interesting information I found in the books I

reccommended, is the sections on treatment and recovery, and the best things

for the alcoholics and family to do to work towards those goals..

There isn't just one for everyone, it depends on what stage of the addiction they

are in, and other things. The reason I wanted to know this type of information addiction, is so that I could do the best things for me to recover, not to start a debate about weather it is or isn't a disease.. In order for us to fix things, we need to know what is broke. Then we go get the best tools for the job, I think addiction is like that, weather we call it a disease, an allergy, a pimple, or a wart. It's causing much pain and suffering.

Lets start the healing....God bless us everyone, hope3
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:56 AM
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Red face

Originally Posted by Pick-a-name View Post
Did anyone else read this in the news yesterday? Interesting,I thought.

http://news.*****.com/s/afp/20070425...h_070425181622

Yes, thank you. its the same type of information thats in

the book Addiction, Why Don't They Just Stop" hope3
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Old 04-28-2007, 08:42 AM
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I am convinced true addiction resides in the brain. I'll probably be dead before I'm proven right. Drats!
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Old 04-28-2007, 01:47 PM
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Well, only thing I can say from my experience as a psychiatric nurse, addictions often go hand in hand with other psych 'issues'. Many people use it to self medicate other conditions, especially in the case of schizophrenia and depression. Those suffering from bipolar disorder will use it to try to calm their manic phases, or to come up during their depressed phase... But it's not always the case... just like you can get each of those illnesses separately, you seem to be able to get addiction on it's own too...

I think addiction is probably as personal as the individual, the same way you get mean drunks and lovey-dovey ones and happy ones and so on. Also might explain why some are 'functional' (and yes, read the opinions on that one) while others barely function, some binge drink on weekends and stay sober all week.

I had a recovering addict explain to me that willpower just doesn't cut it... wanting to quit isn't enough... So... Disease? Perhaps... it's a diagnosis in the DSM IV (the psychiatric diagnosis manual)... does that mean anything? Maybe not.

Just thinking out loud I guess.
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Old 04-28-2007, 02:49 PM
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In the start of this whole issue a while ago LIL that is just what I posted--I feel some comfort knowing it is a disease--I had hoped it would give some comfort to others as well. Still the concept of working on you is very important as they all have the same behavior patterns that destroy us---just to know there are other ways of treating it--that is the plus side--thats what you need to know and learn about...and thank youMayhym for your reply--it just makes sense...
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:52 AM
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This is from the http://ncadd.org/affiliates/affil.html

Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (February 25, 1990).

This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine:


There is a lot of information on the site.

Definition of Alcoholism
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial."

"Primary" refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it.

"Primary" suggests that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an underlying disease state.

"Disease" means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage.

"Often progressive and fatal" means that the disease persists over time and that physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic events.

"Impaired control" means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking.

"Preoccupation" in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of energies away from important life concerns.

"Adverse consequences" are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease, gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g., impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and legal, financial, or spiritual problems.

"Denial" is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the disease and a major obstacle to recovery.
________________________________________
Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (February 25, 1990).

This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine:

Convenors: Robert M. Morse, MD, Joint Committee Chairman; Daniel K. Flavin, MD, NCADD Medical/Scientific Director

Members: Daniel J. Anderson, PhD; Margaret Bean-Bayog, MD; Henri Begleiter MD, PhD; Sheila B. Blume, MD, CAC; Jean Forest, MD; Stanley E. Gitlow, MD; Enoch Gordis, MD; James E. Kelsey, MD; Nancy K. Mello, PhD; Roger E. Meyer, MD; Robert G. Niven, MD; Ann Noll; Barton Pakull, MD; Katherine K. Pike; Lucy Barry Robe; Max A. Schneider, MD; Marc Schuckit, MD; David E. Smith, MD; Emanuel M. Steindler; Boris Tabakoff, PhD; George Vaillant, MD

Members Ex-Officio: James Callahan, DPA; Jasper Chen-See, MD; Robert D. Sparks, MD

Emeritus Consultant: Frank A. Seixas, MD

Hope3
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Old 04-29-2007, 11:11 AM
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I have been reading this book from the library by Chris Prentiss, founder of Passages Treatment Center in Malibu.
First things first, when ever I see something I check out the source and see if they are making money of of what they are saying or trying to! That is all I will say about Chris Prentiss, founder of Passages Treatment Center in Malibu. Money!

Now let us take a look at reality, the scientific community has proven alcoholism is a disease, no ifs, ands, or buts!

Every one has opinions, opinions are like armpits, every one has a few, then there is reality!

There are people who still to this day claim the earth is flat, even though science has proven it is not.

There are those (Usually those selling a book, or owning a treatment center or both) who claim that alcoholism is not a disease even though it is a known, proven scientific fact that it is a disease.

NIH & NIAAA both know it is a disease and there is no way for them to make money of of what they say.

So you tell me who to believe, some one out for a profit or some one who can not make a profit of of what they say?
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Old 04-29-2007, 03:18 PM
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it doesn't matter what you believe-all that matters is you remain open to new ideas and treatments!!!

What if your A could be sober from something new out there--wouldn't you do/try it?

Why would any one want to stand in the way of any type of progress re;this awful disease?

I will never get why this is such an issue with people.

So if something came out with a high rate of recovery-you wouldn't try it because you would be stubborn?

I have a chronic disease--not alcohol--I try EVERYTHING new that comes out in the hopes it will help me to lead a better life.

There WILL be new treatments and medications for alcohol wether you want it or not is your choice.....

My AS chose a non traditional treatment and I am looking right at him ---sober-healthy--for over 7 months now after 14 years of HELL...I am proud of him.

I am almost 50 now and I can tell you the younger generation expects more in the way of teatmentfor addiction.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE; SUNFLOWER
it doesn't matter what you believe-all that matters is you remain open to new ideas and treatments!!!

What if your A could be sober from something new out there--wouldn't you do/try it?

Why would any one want to stand in the way of any type of progress re;this awful disease?

I will never get why this is such an issue with people.



I'll speak for the newbies, as I havent been around here for long myself. For people still trying to deal with/understand the alcoholics drinking, it is an issue and it is important.
Maybe its because with a disease eg. My aunty has not long to live with cancer... we love her... we definitely would not ignore her, or tell her to figure this out all by herself. Pay your own bills, do your own cooking and shopping.
My point - to under if it is "disease" do we stay around and help them out (every bit of advise says no)
Addiction, eg. lets say smoking.... Would you go and buy someone smokes? You probably would but you wouldnt go and buy the booze for an alcoholic, simply because you can see what it does. A person who is addicted to food and overweight, you would still go and buy food wouldnt you..

Maybe thats where we get confused as newbies, if it is a disease where do we draw the line and if it is an addiction where do we draw the line.
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Old 04-30-2007, 05:52 AM
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I just wanted to thank everyone for their posts. I respect everyone's opinion and really value the perspectives. I probably used the wrong word for the title of my post when I wrote "debate." I don't want to stir things up. I am a newbie and just like Sunflower wrote, I am trying to be very open minded to new treatments and trying to educate myself so that I can make the right decision for my young daughter and I.

Many of you have been at the same spot I am at. I am just trying to make sense of everything. How my AH, who is so brilliant, great job, great family and friends, beautiful home, generous, sensitive, caring, loving, creative, could get to this spot.

I struggle with detaching b/c I do love him and care about him, but now realize I cannot fix him. Yet, it makes it hard when my three-year old runs to him like he's a hero in the 1/2 hour he might see her each day. He has done nothing violent, so it is not fair for me to cut off all contact, even though I have made the decision to move out with her to a rental townhome.

On a separate note, anyone see the Oprah special on Addiction where they did the brain scan of the addict and showed how it was different from a non-addict's brain? It is pretty powerful stuff. It opened up my thinking about addiction.

It doesn't make it okay (or easier) to accept the behaviors and I completely understand when many of you have said you don't care what it's called, you just know you needed to put boundaries up against the lies, deception, abuse -- regardless of whether they have a "disease." You know, I might come to that conclusion too. But, right now, I am just trying to come to my own conclusions, just as each one of you has had to do given your unique situation. And, I thank each and every one of you for your insights as I work through this -- you are helping me to make the right choices (as I struggle through anger/resentment) on a path towards personal recovery.

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Old 04-30-2007, 06:03 AM
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the points you make are very good points, and ones that i have pondered over and over. it is confusing for me....the labels.

i guess one way to think of it.....different diseases have different treatments. a cancer patient needs care and support.

the same sort of care and support actually enables the alcoholic, and makes the situation much worse.

so, i guess the rx is different for people with different diseases. i have difficulty with it all, too....i find myself resenting giving the alcoholic the priviledge of having a disease....considering the damage they do....the abuse they are capable of, considering the wreckage they create.....lies, manipulations, self-entitement, selfishness.....it just goes on.

the debate will never end.....as it well should not....for, perhaps in the debate lies some quiet answers that will one day redefine, and restructure the treatments of alcoholics. considering that our current treatments are not very effective at all......let the debate continue.

one very important component.....regardless of the debate....one thing stands steadfast.....the way to safety, and recovery are the same for us that have been effected by alcoholism.

i so understand what you are saying justjo....it is confusing....regardless of all the stats, etc......it is still a hard thing to understand. and understanding is important, for me, too.

the behaviors that an active alcoholic can exhibit and execute upon loved ones and families are so very disgusting, that is is very hard to look at this person and say....well, he has a disease. and often times i felt like my xh hid under the umbrella of that disease, which gave him a socially acceptable excuse to behave the way he did. he was released of responsibility or accountablily because he had a disease. this thought in his head only reinforced that he could continue to do as he was doing. he has told me this before when he was in a drunken rage......"i can act like this because i'm a drunk."
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:27 AM
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I'd urge any of you to bear in mind a couple of things that I believe research has shown (or not) about this whole thing.

There are differences between the brains of substance abusers and those who don't use. However, it is not yet know whether these differences pre-date the substance abuse i.e. it may be the substances themselves that have caused the changes.

Also, it has not yet been proven that there is an addiction gene. There was a huge fanfare about it a few years ago, however the subsequent doubts regarding the study by the same research team didn't get nearly as much publicity. The fact that there is addiction within a family does not prove a genetic link rather than an environmental one.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:16 PM
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Read the books "Under the Influence" & "Beyond the Influence" in at least one of them maybe both they mention a study on children of alcoholics and non alcoholics.

In the study they gave a very small dosage of alcohol to both the children of both groups, the majority of the children who's parents were alcoholics the vast majority of their livers processed the alcohol like an alcoholic, the same test was done on the children of non alcoholic parents the vast majority of their livers processed the alcohol like a normal persons.

Now what conclusion does that lead one to?

Okay in regards to an alcoholic using it being a disease as an excuse for thier behaviour, I am an alcoholic and I do not use it as an excuse for anything I did while I was drinking or now! In AA even though we learn it is a disease, we also learn that we are responsible for every wrong both past and present and we are if at all possible to make amends for our wrongs past and present.

I will not knock any type of treatment program, conventional or non conventional, as a matter of fact both of the founders of AA continued to research other means to deal with alcoholism right up until thier deaths.

The only thing I object to is when one type of treatment program throws stones at another, especially when they hope to make a profit off of thier mud slinging.

Another side note, AA has brought more alcoholics to recovery then all other programs in history combined. Is AA the only way? Heck no, that is even stated in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:06 PM
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For many, many years I believed that alcoholism was not a disease. I thought that concept was a cop out for alcoholic and their loved ones making excuses for them. I always thought it was a matter of willpower since my AH was sober for over 14 years. Never in my life did I realize it was a daily struggle for him. I remember once he told me "I wish I could drink like a normal person", so even though he was sober, he was still thinking about drinking at times. My response to him at that time was "well you can't". End of conversation. Maybe I should have been open to what he was saying, since maybe it was his first cry for help that signaled his relapse. My AH, when sober, seemed to have had it all together. Didn't seem to miss drinking at all. Then he hurt his shoulder and was out of work for three months after shoulder surgery, and it's been downhill since. He's not one for taking any kind of pills, and when he hurt his shoulder, he was prescribed percocet and vicodin. Maybe that sparked the relapse, I don't know. But now he has been diagnosed with alcoholic liver disease, and health problems related to that, and yet he continues to drink. He's a binge drinker and he stopped on Thursday and has been going thru h*ll all weekend with major withdrawals (shaking, vomiting, dizziness, insomnia, etc.) and he even said "I can't keep doing this, it's got to stop" but you know what, he'll be back to drinking again, and yes, he will go thru this again because this isn't his first time. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just my opinion but I don't think it's a matter of willpower or control. You tell me, who would drink with alcoholic liver disease and know you may be dead within 5 years (yet live in denial about it), deal with bloody noses on a daily basis, go thru withdrawals badly at least once every two months and then go back to drinking if they didn't have a disease.
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